welfare versus minimum wage

[Jauronimo]

Why is it that every answer to every liberal problem is to throw other people's money at the problem?

 

A job isn't a right. You earn a job. If you suck at work -- you know, posting pictures of yourself licking taco shells - you get a sucky paycheck, ifyou get one at all. You work hard, commit to growth and be responsible, you get paid accordingly. Forgive me for going all stuckincincy on you, but I started washing dishes and busing tables at the age of 11. Hated it. Watched the waitresses getting more money. Realized their job was easy. Learned to do it. Waited tables. Made more money. By the time I chose to go to college, I washed dishes, waited tables, tended bar and worked construction to earn my keep for four years while bettering my prospects.

 

Everything I just wrote must read to you like "May I mommy dogface to the banana patch."

The answer is much simpler than that. Supply and demand dictates wages, or at least it should. The minimum wage is an artificial price floor which may or may not reflect actual demand for labor. Raising the minimum wage sounds good, at least for the fewer people who now earn minimum wage.

 

All wages are livable when someone chooses to live within their means. Raising the minimum wage to suit the expenses of a single mother of four sounds awfully familiar. Oh yeah, from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.

[/dev/null]

says who? the intentions of who? who benefits from a low minimum wage?

 

Pose that question to yourself but instead of a lower minimum wage, ask who benefits most from a higher minimum wage?

 

Like who uses minimum wage in the formula for deriving their own pay scale?

[birdog1960]

Why is it that every answer to every liberal problem is to throw other people's money at the problem?

 

A job isn't a right. You earn a job. If you suck at work -- you know, posting pictures of yourself licking taco shells - you get a sucky paycheck, ifyou get one at all. You work hard, commit to growth and be responsible, you get paid accordingly. Forgive me for going all stuckincincy on you, but I started washing dishes and busing tables at the age of 11. Hated it. Watched the waitresses getting more money. Realized their job was easy. Learned to do it. Waited tables. Made more money. By the time I chose to go to college, I washed dishes, waited tables, tended bar and worked construction to earn my keep for four years while bettering my prospects.

 

Everything I just wrote must read to you like "May I mommy dogface to the banana patch."

well, no. i worked at a dairy from about 13. mowed lawns before that. worked the holiday inn in niagara falls as a dishwasher at 16. and i wanted better. just like you. but i also worked with people that were never likely to get any better. the raw materials weren't there. so should they be paid a living wage by their employers or subsidized by the gov't cuz i can't fasthom anyoner here saying we should let em starve?

[Jauronimo]

well, no. i worked at a dairy from about 13. mowed lawns before that. worked the holiday inn in niagara falls as a dishwasher at 16. and i wanted better. just like you. but i also worked with people that were never likely to get any better. the raw materials weren't there. so should they be paid a living wage by their employers or subsidized by the gov't cuz i can't fasthom anyoner here saying we should let em starve?

Every wage is a living wage in this country. Whats the problem?

[Azalin]

but i also worked with people that were never likely to get any better. the raw materials weren't there. so should they be paid a living wage by their employers or subsidized by the gov't cuz i can't fasthom anyoner here saying we should let em starve?

if by 'raw materials weren't there' you refer to a mental or physical handicap, then I would wager that everyone here would support some kind of government assistance for them. I certainly would.

 

I have to ask, why are we talking about them starving? we have the wealthiest poor people on the planet. a significant number of the lowest income earners are fat....they're certainly not starving. I would think that supporters of welfare would want to police the system more effectively, to prevent legitimately needed welfare funds from being taken from thos that truly need it.

[birdog1960]

if by 'raw materials weren't there' you refer to a mental or physical handicap, then I would wager that everyone here would support some kind of government assistance for them. I certainly would.

 

I have to ask, why are we talking about them starving? we have the wealthiest poor people on the planet. a significant number of the lowest income earners are fat....they're certainly not starving. I would think that supporters of welfare would want to police the system more effectively, to prevent legitimately needed welfare funds from being taken from thos that truly need it.

not necessarily handicapped. is an IQ of 80 handicapped? is someone with 25th percentile intelligence likely ever to work as a fast food manager? are they likely ever to make more than minimum wagew? by definition, this is 25% of the population and even that number is arbitratry. it may be more like 30-40 that are destined for such work.the current min is $7.25 right? so that's about $1200/mo before taxes. even living alone it's damn near impossible to feed, clothe, transpot and house yourself on that. and a bump in the road or two and your at the title loan place paying 30% interest. the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it.

Edited August 21, 2013 by birdog1960

[Jauronimo]

not necessarily handicapped. is an IQ of 80 handicapped? is someone with 25th percentile intelligence likely ever to work as a fast food manager? are they likely ever to make more than minimum wagew? by definition, this is 25% of the population and even that number is arbitratry. it may be more like 30-40 that are destined for such work.the current min is $7.25 right? so that's about $1200/mo before taxes. even living alone it's damn near impossible to feed, clothe, transpot and house yourself on that. and a bump in the road or two and your at the title loan place paying 30% interest. the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it.

False.

[Captain Hindsight]

not necessarily handicapped. is an IQ of 80 handicapped? is someone with 25th percentile intelligence likely ever to work as a fast food manager? are they likely ever to make more than minimum wagew? by definition, this is 25% of the population and even that number is arbitratry. it may be more like 30-40 that are destined for such work.the current min is $7.25 right? so that's about $1200/mo before taxes. even living alone it's damn near impossible to feed, clothe, transpot and house yourself on that. and a bump in the road or two and your at the title loan place paying 30% interest. the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it.

Last year as an intern making 1000 a month before taxes, I found a way to make it work. I lived below my means and sacrificed a lot of things I was used to having. I made a budget and made it work. Because that's what I had to do. I made roughly 4 bucks an hour last year

[Jauronimo]

Last year as an intern making 1000 a month before taxes, I found a way to make it work. I lived below my means and sacrificed a lot of things I was used to having. I made a budget and made it work. Because that's what I had to do. I made roughly 4 bucks an hour last year

But you were constantly rioting and eventually died in the street, right? Your story doesn't add up.

[birdog1960]

Last year as an intern making 1000 a month before taxes, I found a way to make it work. I lived below my means and sacrificed a lot of things I was used to having. I made a budget and made it work. Because that's what I had to do. I made roughly 4 bucks an hour last year

so, what would have happened had you developed pneumoniaand missed weeks of work? weren't you trying to treat an ear infection with chants and ashes last year? how bout if your transmission went on your car? what if you got your girlfriend prenant? do you benefit from any form of gov't assistance? food stamps, subsidized housing, subsidized transport? was there non gov'yt subsidies like living in your parents basement?

Edited August 21, 2013 by birdog1960

[Azalin]

the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it.

I'm not making any such claim.

 

so, 25% of the US population has an IQ equal to, or less than 80? to make your point, wouldn't 25% of the population have to be making minimum wage as well?

 

it doesn't take much imagination to be able to name a whole slew of jobs that unskilled workers can manage, that either pay above minimum wage or can lead directly to a higher wage - all of the building/apartment/warehouse/business maintenance positions start low-skill and low-wage, but they all, through OJT lead to better positions and better pay. construction and landscaping crews, restaurants (per an earlier example, busboy to waiter to bartender to manager, or dishwasher to cook to sous chef to chef/manager), town & state jobs like road crews, park maintenance, food banks, etc.

 

and what about all the available education? for low income people looking to better themselves, there's all kinds of assistance available. hell, I worked in food service from age 18 to age 36, at all kinds of places working every position from diswasher to manager. I spent two of those years cooking full time during the day and going to tech school at night. I had a pitiful income at the time, so I was able to receive GUARANTEED student loans to pay my tuition. it was hard work, but nothing that 98% of the rest of the people on earth couldn't do. I payed back my student loans (which was kind of a lot at the time...$12,000 total) with the money I earned as a newly hired telecom tech. the formula for success is there for anybody who is able-bodied and is smart enough to keep from drooling.

 

we have now come to the point where some people actually turn down pay raises and promotions because they will get less money in government asssistance:

 

'For this story, CBS 21 researched what government programs are available to a single mother of two making $19,000 a year. What we found was incredible. Our family would be eligible for $14,976 in free day care, another $13,400 for Head Start and Early Head Start, $7,148 in housing vouchers, $6,500 for weatherization projects, $400 to pay heating bills, $480 a year for a cell phone, with an extra $230 for a land line, and $182 in free legal advice. The family would get more than $6,028 in food assistance and another $6,045 in medical assistance. The mother is eligible for $5,500 in Pell Grants for school with an additional $12,000 for the Education Opportunity Grant; SMART Grant; and TEACH Grant. Our family would also get $6,800 in tax credits, and $1,900 in withholding would be returned. Add it up and this family can get $81,589 in free assistance.'

 

http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/a-real-life-example-of-how-government-handouts-create-life-sapping-dependency/

 

 

 

 

[Jauronimo]

so, what would have happened had you developed pneumoniaand missed weeks of work? weren't you trying to treat an ear infection with chants and ashes last year? how bout if your transmission went on your car? what if you got your girlfriend prenant? do you benefit from any form of gov't assistance? food stamps, subsidized housing, subsidized transport? was there non gov'yt subsidies like living in your parents basement?

$4 per hour is well below minimum wage and he proved that even approx 50% can work. Whats your point?

[GG]

not necessarily handicapped. is an IQ of 80 handicapped? is someone with 25th percentile intelligence likely ever to work as a fast food manager? are they likely ever to make more than minimum wagew? by definition, this is 25% of the population and even that number is arbitratry. it may be more like 30-40 that are destined for such work.the current min is $7.25 right? so that's about $1200/mo before taxes. even living alone it's damn near impossible to feed, clothe, transpot and house yourself on that. and a bump in the road or two and your at the title loan place paying 30% interest. the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it.

 

The flaw in your logic is thinking that the person with the 80 IQ is going to get a better outcome if he were to earn another $10/hour.

[birdog1960]

$4 per hour is well below minimum wage and he proved that even approx 50% can work. Whats your point?

my point is the same as it was initially. that underpaid internship was likely subsidized by someone, most likely the gov't. so his cheap employer benefits while he and nearly everyone else loses.

 

I'm not making any such claim.

 

so, 25% of the US population has an IQ equal to, or less than 80? to make your point, wouldn't 25% of the population have to be making minimum wage as well?

the populace is aging but there still plenty of folks below working age. so the answer is clearly "no".

[IDBillzFan]

what if you got your girlfriend prenant?

 

Only in the progressive world is this seen as just something that happens to responsible people, and worthy of collecting government handouts...whether to feed the child, or even kill it before it gets out. Kind of a tough decision for a prog, I suppose. You could have the government pay to abort the fetus, or give birth to the fetus and earn extra government handouts for reaching a new level of "How Many Illegitimate Babies Can You Have?"

 

How about not getting your girlfriend pregnant? I mean, isn't that the whole point of giving "free" birth control?

[birdog1960]

Only in the progressive world is this seen as just something that happens to responsible people, and worthy of collecting government handouts...whether to feed the child, or even kill it before it gets out. Kind of a tough decision for a prog, I suppose. You could have the government pay to abort the fetus, or give birth to the fetus and earn extra government handouts for reaching a new level of "How Many Illegitimate Babies Can You Have?"

 

How about not getting your girlfriend pregnant? I mean, isn't that the whole point of giving "free" birth control?

a little lesson in contraception: even tubal ligations can fail.

[Chef Jim]

not necessarily handicapped. is an IQ of 80 handicapped? is someone with 25th percentile intelligence likely ever to work as a fast food manager? are they likely ever to make more than minimum wagew? by definition, this is 25% of the population and even that number is arbitratry. it may be more like 30-40 that are destined for such work.the current min is $7.25 right? so that's about $1200/mo before taxes. even living alone it's damn near impossible to feed, clothe, transpot and house yourself on that. and a bump in the road or two and your at the title loan place paying 30% interest. the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it.

 

Ever hear of a spouse or roommates? You have three guys at $1200 each before taxes and things all of a sudden look a lot better spitting that rent three ways. Life is soooooo tough.

 

Hell dude I have an employee who will probably make north of $200k this year and rents a room in a big house and drives a Hyundai Elantra with more than 100k on it.

[B-Man]

"The real minimum wage is zero. Making it illegal to pay less than a given amount does not make a worker’s productivity worth that amount—and, if it is not, that worker is unlikely to be employed.”

-- Thomas Sowell

 

 

"We cannot legislate prosperity. When we increase minimum wages by legislative fiat, we kill jobs. Government creates nothing but what it has first taken away" -- John Stossell

 

 

From Milton Friedman:

The fact is, the programs labeled as being “for the poor,” or “for the needy,” [by politicians like President Obama] almost always have effects exactly the opposite of those which their well-intentioned sponsors intend them to have.

 

Let me give you a very simple example – take the minimum wage law. Its well-meaning sponsors [like President Obama]– there are always in these cases two groups of sponsors – there are the well-meaning sponsors and there are the special interests, who are using the well-meaning sponsors as front men. You almost always when you have bad programs have an unholy coalition of the do-gooders on the one hand, and the special interest on the other. The minimum wage law is as clear a case as you could want. The special interests are of course the trade unions – the monopolistic trade craft unions. The do-gooders believe that by passing a law saying that nobody shall get less than $9 per hour (adjusted for today) or whatever the minimum wage is,

you are helping poor people who need the money. You are doing nothing of the kind. What you are doing is to assure, that people whose skills, are not sufficient to justify that kind of a wage will be unemployed

.

 

The minimum wage law is most properly described as a law saying that employers must discriminate against people who have low skills. That’s what the law says. The law says that here’s a man who has a skill that would justify a wage of $5 or $6 per hour (adjusted for today), but you may not employ him, it’s illegal, because if you employ him you must pay him $9 per hour. So what’s the result? To employ him at $9 per hour is to engage in charity. There’s nothing wrong with charity. But most employers are not in the position to engage in that kind of charity. Thus, the consequences of minimum wage laws have been almost wholly bad. We have increased unemployment and increased poverty.

 

Moreover, the effects have been concentrated on the groups that the do-gooders would most like to help. The people who have been hurt most by the minimum wage laws are the blacks. I have often said that the most anti-black law on the books of this land is the minimum wage law.

 

There is absolutely no positive objective achieved by the minimum wage law. Its real purpose is to reduce competition for the trade unions and make it easier for them to maintain the higher wages of their privileged member

s.

 

 

.

[Azalin]

the populace is aging but there still plenty of folks below working age. so the answer is clearly "no".

okay, that's what I thought.

 

per the bureau of labor statistics, we're not doing so bad on wages:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm

[birdog1960]

Ever hear of a spouse or roommates? You have three guys at $1200 each before taxes and things all of a sudden look a lot better spitting that rent three ways. Life is soooooo tough.

 

Hell dude I have an employee who will probably make north of $200k this year and rents a room in a big house and drives a Hyundai Elantra with more than 100k on it.

what's a 1 bedroom apt go for in sf? even divided by 3, it's not gonna leave much on minimum wage. and before you say they should live away from the city, how do they get to work? btw, your example doesn'tr help your case. a guy making 200k with nthat living standard makes it even more likely that $7.25 is inadequate to survive.

Edited August 21, 2013 by birdog1960