T McGee

[mrags]

Enlightener does it again. I used to think McGee was overrated. Now I completely agree with the all mighty great Enlightener. He's so smart.

[ExWNYer]

o don't think anyone is saying he "stinks" just simply stating that he's extremely overrated by Bills homers, especially on this site.

 

Honestly, it's no different than Parrish, Evans. Good players at their positions, but calling them "great" is a nothing short of a joke.

 

Just seems people really fall in love with the return guys much more than any other position.

Simply stated, the fact that you think a 4th Round draft pick is "overrated" is asinine. He wasn't a top 10 pick, he was a freaking 4 Rounder. Sign me up for that kind of production from all of the Bills 4th Round picks. Get a grip, dude.

[mrags]

 

Simply stated, the fact that you think a 4th Round draft pick is "overrated" is asinine. He wasn't a top 10 pick, he was a freaking 4 Rounder. Sign me up for that kind of production from all of the Bills 4th Round picks. Get a grip, dude.

ugh.

 

I give up. Terrance McGee is the best freaking CB in Bills history. Hope everyone is happy. Now lets put him on the WOF, in the HOF and leave the team to him after Ralph's dead.

 

End of story.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

A good read for McGee haters. Statistically he's atop the bills record books in multiple categories. Including passes defended...not a kr stat.

 

http://www.buffaloru...lls-no-49-cb-kr

 

Fair enough but for the first 4-5 years of his career he was the second best cornerback on the team meaning that other teams were throwing at him and away from Winfield and Clements.

 

Without knowing how many times McGee was targeted, passes defensed is not a compelling argument for me.

 

I have stated in this thread and numerous times over the years that I loved McGee.

 

I just disagree that he was a better cover corner than Winfield.

[ExWNYer]

ugh.

 

I give up. Terrance McGee is the best freaking CB in Bills history. Hope everyone is happy. Now lets put him on the WOF, in the HOF and leave the team to him after Ralph's dead.

 

End of story.

Who said he was the greatest CB in Bills history??? Good God, your irrational hate of him is over the top. I don't think one person in this thread stated that he was the best. Again, he was a 4th Round pick. You have an ax to grind. End of story.

[mrags]

 

Who said he was the greatest CB in Bills history??? Good God, your irrational hate of him is over the top. I don't think one person in this thread stated that he was the best. Again, he was a 4th Round pick. You have an ax to grind. End of story.

draft selection has nothing to do with his fan love. Ive already conceded. He's the best CB ever. No more arguing about it. As a 30+ year old CB with serious injury concerns, I say we sign him and make sure he has the responsibility of guarding opposing teams WRs.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

Fair enough but for the first 4-5 years of his career he was the second best cornerback on the team meaning that other teams were throwing at him and away from Winfield and Clements.

 

Without knowing how many times McGee was targeted, passes defensed is not a compelling argument for me.

 

I have stated in this thread and numerous times over the years that I loved McGee.

 

I just disagree that he was a better cover corner than Winfield.

 

Yeah I don't really know how one proves such things. I always though the best part of Winfield's game was his run support. None the less I think we could probably all agree the bills right now have a question mark at #2 CB.

 

I'd add Gilmore might end up being the best cover corner the franchise has ever seen.

[zazie]

McGee conducted himself properly, as a player and as a Bill. Stand-up guy.

 

Even when one of our coaches Jerry Gray scammed and defrauded him and he had to sue Jerry, he was civil and correct about it.

 

We should be so lucky as to have a roster full of T McGees.

[Mr. WEO]

Fair enough but for the first 4-5 years of his career he was the second best cornerback on the team meaning that other teams were throwing at him and away from Winfield and Clements.

 

Without knowing how many times McGee was targeted, passes defensed is not a compelling argument for me.

 

I have stated in this thread and numerous times over the years that I loved McGee.

 

I just disagree that he was a better cover corner than Winfield.

 

Nope.

 

All 3 spent one season together in Buff (03). Winfield had the most PDs that year (and fewest ints) of the 3 of them.

 

Over the next 3 seasons the total PD and ints for Clements and McGee were 52/14 and 46/9. "Shut down corner" Clements is now on his 3rd team.

 

You can't claim teams were "throwing away" from Clements and Winfield and then say passes defended is meaningless without knowing the target numbers.

 

If you want to believe Winfield was?/is? a better pass defender, you are free to do so--but simply saying so isn't a convincing argument to others.

[NoName]

Some of you guys are so obsessed with stats. Stats don't often give you the whole picture. Yes McGee was a good corner back. No doubt about that. But he would have never been anything close to a pro bowl at the corner back position. Never. He was a good player and very good returner.

 

Winfield was the best Bills corner I've seen in a Bills uniform in my over 20 years of being a fan. Clements a close second and I don't remember enough of Odoms play to say if he or Thomas Smith is 3rd but my instinct would say Odoms. Winfield was an all around corner. He did not get the picks but that dude was probably the best tackling CB I"ve seen. Especially for his size.

 

Terrence Mcgee as far as CB ability to me was much more on par with Jeff Burris.

 

McGee was never going to lock down a side of the field for you or anything like that. He was a good solid nfl corner back.

 

Get your heads out of the stats boys. It doesn't give you the whole picture. Use your eyes.

 

And I forgot to mention. McGee was a nickle corner for a good chunk of his career. Who were the two corners ahead of him??????? Exactly

Edited August 15, 2013 by NoName

[Mr. WEO]

Some of you guys are so obsessed with stats. Stats don't often give you the whole picture. Yes McGee was a good corner back. No doubt about that. But he would have never been anything close to a pro bowl at the corner back position. Never. He was a good player and very good returner.

 

Winfield was the best Bills corner I've seen in a Bills uniform in my over 20 years of being a fan. Clements a close second and I don't remember enough of Odoms play to say if he or Thomas Smith is 3rd but my instinct would say Odoms. Winfield was an all around corner. He did not get the picks but that dude was probably the best tackling CB I"ve seen. Especially for his size.

 

Terrence Mcgee as far as CB ability to me was much more on par with Jeff Burris.

 

McGee was never going to lock down a side of the field for you or anything like that. He was a good solid nfl corner back.

 

Get your heads out of the stats boys. It doesn't give you the whole picture. Use your eyes.

 

And I forgot to mention. McGee was a nickle corner for a good chunk of his career. Who were the two corners ahead of him??????? Exactly

 

Huh? Exactly who then?

 

And I've already conceded that Winfield is a great tackler, which is nice, but doens't equate to good coverage (of passes anyway).

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Nope.

 

All 3 spent one season together in Buff (03). Winfield had the most PDs that year (and fewest ints) of the 3 of them.

 

Over the next 3 seasons the total PD and ints for Clements and McGee were 52/14 and 46/9. "Shut down corner" Clements is now on his 3rd team.

 

You can't claim teams were "throwing away" from Clements and Winfield and then say passes defended is meaningless without knowing the target numbers.

 

If you want to believe Winfield was?/is? a better pass defender, you are free to do so--but simply saying so isn't a convincing argument to others.

 

Winfield and Clements had more passes defensed than McGee when they were teammates?

 

Well certainly you disproved my point that a team's best cornerback will have fewer passes defensed because he's thrown at less. Maybe Winfield had more passes defensed because he's more often matched up against the other team's best receiver? Just a thought.

 

So if Winfield and Clements had more passes defensed than McGee, how does that fit into your upthread assertion that McGee was a better cover cornerback than Winfield or your snide insinuation that McGee is a better cover man than "third team" Clements?

 

Also you stray from the argument when mentioning that Clements is on his third team.

 

Is this fact more or less relevant than the fact that Terrence McGee is out of the league and hasn't had a decent season since 2008?

 

http://www.pro-footb.../M/McGeTe99.htm

Edited August 15, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

 

Huh? Exactly who then?

 

And I've already conceded that Winfield is a great tackler, which is nice, but doens't equate to good coverage (of passes anyway).

 

I guess we should define "coverage." Winfield could cover a lot of people, as in, stay with them. But his ball skills-- making a play on the ball-- were far inferior to McGee.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I guess we should define "coverage." Winfield could cover a lot of people, as in, stay with them. But his ball skills-- making a play on the ball-- were far inferior to McGee.

 

Exactly!

 

How would one characterize a cornerback that gets his hands on more balls but catches less of them?

 

Obviously he's a better cover man but has poorer hands.

Edited August 15, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Matt in KC]

I guess we should define "coverage." Winfield could cover a lot of people, as in, stay with them. But his ball skills-- making a play on the ball-- were far inferior to McGee.

That's what I remember. There was always more space between Clements and his man that between Winfield and his. Clements was always higher risk/high reward for the INTs. I sometimes thought he was baiting QBs to throw to his guy. From my memory, McGee was as good at making a play on the ball as Clements, but would showboat less. Winfield would often choose to just bat down passes when I thought he had a chance to catch them (or drop an attempt to catch).

 

And, though I'm defending McGee in this thread (from people saying "very good" CB was drastically over-rating him), Winfield was a much better CB. I think Clements was also a better CB than McGee, but not by that much. That said, I'd rather a handful of "McGees" on my team.

[thebandit27]

For some bizarre reason, people want to avoid these stats.

 

McGee was such a solid CB for us for quite a stretch, and yet a few people on here with no real evidence apparently think he stinks. I find it to be bizarre.

 

by the way, in terms of ball skills, he was probably right there with Clements. (Winfield, also by the way, had hands like stone when he was here. The guy had like 4 picks in all his years here).

 

Show me one person that said he stinks. I'll wait. And as for the "stats" you think people are avoiding, right from PFR's website:

 

AV - approximate value. This is our attempt to put a single number on each player-season since 1950 so that we can (very approximately) compare across years and across positions.

 

This isn't a stat, it's one website's opinion.

 

A good read for McGee haters. Statistically he's atop the bills record books in multiple categories. Including passes defended...not a kr stat.

 

http://www.buffaloru...lls-no-49-cb-kr

 

Once again, these posts about people "hating" McGee and thinking he "stinks" are beyond confusing. I've stated multiple times that I loved the guy (and had his jersey to boot). I just didn't think he was a very good player, but rather an average CB with incredible return skills. Again, right from the article you linked to:

 

His defensive play has always been steady, if unspectacular.

 

Steady, unspectacular. I agree.

 

I'll repeat -- he had an AV of 15 in 2004, primarily because of his cb play. No bill has had an AV that high since. (See www.pro-football-reference.com.)

 

See above for AV description from PFR...it's not a stat. It's also worth noting that McGee didn't have the highest AV on the team in 2004 according to that site, as Takeo Spikes had a 17. That said, PFR doesn't list AV for each player on a yearly basis, so to confirm your statement one would have to go through each season, one defensive player at a time, and look at their AV's...too time consuming for me...is that what you did?

 

Fair enough but for the first 4-5 years of his career he was the second best cornerback on the team meaning that other teams were throwing at him and away from Winfield and Clements.

 

Without knowing how many times McGee was targeted, passes defensed is not a compelling argument for me.

 

I have stated in this thread and numerous times over the years that I loved McGee.

 

I just disagree that he was a better cover corner than Winfield.

 

^ Hitting the nail right between the eyes.

Edited August 15, 2013 by thebandit27

[NoName]

That's what I remember. There was always more space between Clements and his man that between Winfield and his. Clements was always higher risk/high reward for the INTs. I sometimes thought he was baiting QBs to throw to his guy. From my memory, McGee was as good at making a play on the ball as Clements, but would showboat less. Winfield would often choose to just bat down passes when I thought he had a chance to catch them (or drop an attempt to catch).

 

And, though I'm defending McGee in this thread (from people saying "very good" CB was drastically over-rating him), Winfield was a much better CB. I think Clements was also a better CB than McGee, but not by that much. That said, I'd rather a handful of "McGees" on my team.l

 

Agree totally on how Winfield played his man and Clements. Very good analysis. I thought McGee pressed his man a little more than Clements.

Heck, when Winfield and Clements left, McGee was without a doubt the best CB on our roster for a few years. But he is just not as good as those guys. Winfield went signed a big contract and made a pro bowl or two. Clements at one point was the highest paid corner or defesnive player in the league and he might have made a pro bowl as well. "Because of their CB Skills". Those guys were in pro bowls for CB play McGee would never have been considered for CB play. What did McGee's big contract look like compared to theirs? Also, as long as Winfield and Clements were in Bills uniform, McGee was NEVER a starter unless someone was injured. Heck Troy Vincent was brought in to start over McGee. From reading his post, JR seems to misinformed and doesn't seem to have an understanding of CB play.

Edited August 15, 2013 by NoName

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Agree totally on how Winfield played his man and Clements. Very good analysis. I thought McGee pressed his man a little more than Clements.

Heck, when Winfield and Clements left, McGee was without a doubt the best CB on our roster for a few years. But he is just not as good as those guys. Winfield went signed a big contract and made a pro bowl or two. Clements at one point was the highest paid corner or defesnive player in the league and he might have made a pro bowl as well. "Because of their CB Skills". Those guys were in pro bowls for CB play McGee would never have been considered for CB play. What did McGee's big contract look like compared to theirs? Also, as long as Winfield and Clements were in Bills uniform, McGee was NEVER a starter unless someone was injured. Heck Troy Vincent was brought in to start over McGee. From reading his post, JR seems to misinformed and doesn't seem to have an understanding of CB play.

 

How am I misinformed? I said McGee was a very good corner. I also said that while Winfield was probably a better cover guy, McGee had better ball skills.

 

If I had to rank them--which is sort of on a tangent from the original claim that "McGee was overrated by us homers"-- this is how I would do it:

 

1) Coverage: (a) Winfield; (b) McGee; and then © Clements.

2) Ball Skills: (a) Clements; (b) McGee; and then © Winfield

3) Tackling: (a) Winfield; (b) McGee; and © Clements

 

But, again, the point of this debate,. or so I thought, was to determine whether McGee was overrated. He wasn't. Just about everyone considers--or should consider-- him to be a very solid CB, an all-time great kick returner, a draft steal, and an overall good guy.

[thebandit27]

How am I misinformed? I said McGee was a very good corner. I also said that while Winfield was probably a better cover guy, McGee had better ball skills.

 

If I had to rank them--which is sort of on a tangent from the original claim that "McGee was overrated by us homers"-- this is how I would do it:

 

1) Coverage: (a) Winfield; (b) McGee; and then © Clements.

2) Ball Skills: (a) Clements; (b) McGee; and then © Winfield

3) Tackling: (a) Winfield; (b) McGee; and © Clements

 

But, again, the point of this debate,. or so I thought, was to determine whether McGee was overrated. He wasn't. Just about everyone considers--or should consider-- him to be a very solid CB, an all-time great kick returner, a draft steal, and an overall good guy.

 

See, this is why we have an issue; your statement seems to imply that it's appropriate to push your opinion on others. Nobody "should" think what you believe, otherwise nobody else would be allowed to have an opinion.

 

As for the original statement, what I said was that I felt his CB play was over-rated by many Bills' fans, but that his KR skills were incredible. You cannot determine, via debate, if a person's opinion is correct...thinking you can--as you seem to be implying above--is a fallacy.

 

I loved the guy, and I watched his entire Bills' career with excitement, so my opinion is as valid as anyone else's. Telling me, or anyone else, what we should think about the guy, is over-stepping.

 

For my part, one of the stretches that, to me, eptimoized his limitations as a CB was during the 2006 season, when he gave up TD receptions on double moves in 4 consecutive weeks, and went the entire season without an interception. Now, that sample size is entirely representative of his career, as he had notably good stretches in 2004 and early 2007, but my point remains the same.

 

I'll repeat -- he had an AV of 15 in 2004, primarily because of his cb play. No bill has had an AV that high since. (See www.pro-football-reference.com.)

 

I've done some digging, and it appears that McGee's AV of 15 is directly the result of KRs, not CB play, as Pro Football Reference lists it only under kick returns:

 

http://www.pro-footb.../M/McGeTe99.htm

 

Strangely, they don't list an AV for his defensive performance.

Edited August 15, 2013 by thebandit27

[Matt in KC]

If I had to rank them--which is sort of on a tangent from the original claim that "McGee was overrated by us homers"-- this is how I would do it:

 

1) Coverage: (a) Winfield; (b) McGee; and then © Clements.

2) Ball Skills: (a) Clements; (b) McGee; and then © Winfield

3) Tackling: (a) Winfield; (b) McGee; and © Clements

 

But, again, the point of this debate,. or so I thought, was to determine whether McGee was overrated. He wasn't. Just about everyone considers--or should consider-- him to be a very solid CB, an all-time great kick returner, a draft steal, and an overall good guy.

I concur on all of these points, including your rankings.

 

See, this is why we have an issue; your statement seems to imply that it's appropriate to push your opinion on others. Nobody "should" think what you believe, otherwise nobody else would be allowed to have an opinion.

 

As for the original statement, what I said was that I felt his CB play was over-rated by many Bills' fans, but that his KR skills were incredible. You cannot determine, via debate, if a person's opinion is correct...thinking you can--as you seem to be implying above--is a fallacy.<snip>

What do you think of JR in Pittsburgh's content in his previous post, including his rankings? (Arguing about how to argue on the board isn't really fun for anyone. Take the high road and turn the convo back to the content.)