A Few Thoughts About the Game, in no particular order.....

[maddenboy]

Great thread as usual Bill. I have a few thoughts on the QB situation:

 

1) Preseason play means simplified offenses going up against simplified defenses. Losman and Trent Edwards have both had good to very good preseasons. The nature of preseason helped mask their biggest deficiency--the inability to process large amounts of information quickly. That being said, Manuel looks like he's on or ahead of the schedule the coaches envisioned for him back when he was drafted. Tuel seems to have significantly better accuracy and physical tuels than Fitzpatrick. Kolb should be #3 on the depth chart, or released outright. Tuel should be given a chance to compete for the starting position.

 

I saw what you did there. Well played.

 

Per my Sig, I wanted EJ in the worst possible fugging way. And when Goodell said "with the 16th pick, the buffalo bills select E . . . ." I was apoplectic with joy.

 

But after one preseason game, I almost like Tuel more. 2 reasons:

 

(1) Tuel goes through all his progressions. You can see his head/helmet moving around before he decides to make his throw. Accurately

 

(2) Tuel is looking to go downfield first. We have excellent downfield weapons now. If EJ is going to checkdown for the rest of his career with that huge cannon on his shoulder, then maybe he needs to step out of the way.

 

Case in point: At about the 6:41 mark of the 4th quarter, Tuel rolls out right on a designed roll-out. The TE in the flat is waving that he's open. Tuel is like "yeah, I see you, but hold on a second." You can see Tuel's head move back to the middle of the field, scanning for something downfield. Finally he "settles" for the dumpoff to the TE (who dropped it, but that's not the point).

 

People here on TBD have said that Tuel could be the next Frank Reich. To me, Tuel is Kirk Cousins. A legit NFL starter who happens to be stuck behind a legit NFL starter who was drafted higher (and yes, I know Tuel wasnt drafted at all, but you get my point).

Edited August 13, 2013 by maddenboy

[Wayne Cubed]

 

(2) Tuel is looking to go downfield first. We have excellent downfield weapons now. If EJ is going to checkdown for the rest of his career with that huge cannon on his shoulder, then maybe he needs to step out of the way.

 

Case in point: At about the 6:41 mark of the 4th quarter, Tuel rolls out right on a designed roll-out. The TE in the flat is waving that he's open. Tuel is like "yeah, I see you, but hold on a second." You can see Tuel's head move back to the middle of the field, scanning for something downfield. Finally he "settles" for the dumpoff to the TE (who dropped it, but that's not the point).

 

 

IMO, thats not something that I would neccessarily think is always a positive, especially the play you are refering to. If he hits the TE early, the TE could have walked into the endzone. Instead he "looks downfield" then finally goes to the TE, who is practically out of bounds at that point, and the TE struggles to make the catch on a low thrown ball. That was an error on Tuels part.

 

Yea, looking downfield is great and exciting, etc. But taking what the defense gives you is just as important.

[frogger]

My observation that I have not read, Frank Summers gets his man, I know FB isn't a glamorous position, but he blocks the right man and with CJ's evolution he will be used.

[JohnC]

> Aren't you being a little quick on making your assessment on Kolb and his place on the roster?

 

You could be right. I was against the Kolb signing from the beginning, which may mean I'm not giving him a fair shake now. If from this point forward he outplays both Manuel and Tuel, I wouldn't object to his re-inclusion in a competition for the starting spot.

 

> However, jumping on the Tuel bandwagon off of the first preseason game in which he played against the scrubs is overreaching.

 

I was not overreaching. If Tuel continues to play as well as he has, he deserves the chance to compete for the starting spot. I chose the word "compete" deliberately, to imply that he must outplay Manuel if he is to become the starter.

 

> I liked how Tuel handled himself. He looked like an accurate Fitz.

 

I thought Fitz could have been a very good quarterback if he'd only been accurate. If I could change one additional thing about him besides his accuracy, it would be his arm strength. Arm strength does not seem to be an issue for Tuel.

 

With respect to Kolb he is not a franchise qb, and never will be. He is a serviceable qb who can last a long time in the league as a backup, assuming he is willing to accept the role. The Kolb/Manuel competition is not a real competition. Whether Manuel starts or not has nothing to do with Kolb. It revolves around the issue of what is the best approach to take for EJ's development. I'm not saying that Kolb shouldn't be the starter when the season starts. He may or not be the starter. If he does it won't be for long because Manuel, not Kolb, is going to be our franchise qb. Kolb is simply a place holder until Manuel is ready.

 

Let's be blunt here, even at the risk of alienating the "believers", the Bills are going to lose more games than they win this season. The purpose of this season is finding that "elusive' franchise qb and then building off of the recently drafted players. Another way of looking at is undoing the handiwork of the previous regimes and building off of their own vision.

 

As I stated in the prior post I didn't watch much of the game. I did see a sequence of Tuel at the helm and was extremely impressed with his accuracy and quick rhythm passing. How refreshing was it after enduring the Fitz scatter shot throws to watch a Buffalo qb throwing accurate passes? However, my point regarding Tuel was not a diminishment of him but it dealt with the mentoring role that Kolb can serve to help Manuel develop.

Edited August 13, 2013 by JohnC

[Orton's Arm]

I saw what you did there. Well played.

 

Per my Sig, I wanted EJ in the worst possible fugging way. And when Goodell said "with the 16th pick, the buffalo bills select E . . . ." I was apoplectic with joy.

 

But after one preseason game, I almost like Tuel more. 2 reasons:

 

(1) Tuel goes through all his progressions. You can see his head/helmet moving around before he decides to make his throw. Accurately

 

(2) Tuel is looking to go downfield first. We have excellent downfield weapons now. If EJ is going to checkdown for the rest of his career with that huge cannon on his shoulder, then maybe he needs to step out of the way.

 

Case in point: At about the 6:41 mark of the 4th quarter, Tuel rolls out right on a designed roll-out. The TE in the flat is waving that he's open. Tuel is like "yeah, I see you, but hold on a second." You can see Tuel's head move back to the middle of the field, scanning for something downfield. Finally he "settles" for the dumpoff to the TE (who dropped it, but that's not the point).

 

People here on TBD have said that Tuel could be the next Frank Reich. To me, Tuel is Kirk Cousins. A legit NFL starter who happens to be stuck behind a legit NFL starter who was drafted higher (and yes, I know Tuel wasnt drafted at all, but you get my point).

 

Good post!

 

Some time back, the Falcons used the first overall pick on Vick. They used a later pick on Matt Schaub. Schaub went on to become a significantly better quarterback than Vick. Unfortunately for the Falcons, Schaub's success occurred in Houston, not Atlanta. He was never given a chance to compete for the starting position, because of Vick's draft status.

 

By no means am I worried about Manuel abusing dogs, or engaging in vile off-the-field behavior. But what if, on the field, he's no better than Vick was for the Falcons, while Tuel is at or above Schaub's level?

 

I'm just throwing this out there as a hypothetical question. Any statements about how good or bad Tuel's or Manuel's careers will be are obviously speculative. The only reason I bring this up is to point out that even if a backup/low draft status QB outplays the starter/high draft status guy, there's no guarantee that the backup will be seriously considered for the starting position.

[boyst]

 

 

On the other hand, DBs routinely drop easy pop flies right in their hands. Didn't Searcy drop a certain INT yesterday or was it someone else? Butler made a great play and had an outstanding game.

 

 

 

Very good. I'm mystified that people are criticizing the NFL Network's coverage. It was the Colts Broadcast Network.

 

Now if someone wants to criticize the NFL Network for carrying the Colts broadcasters, that would be a different… and valid criticism.

 

And yes, in fairness, they actually started talking about the Bills and were highly complimentary for at least one half.

 

 

 

On the other hand I've seen it mentioned nowhere today that EJ had a TD pass to Fred that didn't come to fruition because Sheppard got away with defensive holding.

 

 

 

Dude, is that lavender or thistle in your avatar?

 

What's happened to you?

 

You're not gonna debut a new look at the home opener are you?

 

No more Stetson?

wanted to spice it up a little bit. Nope. I'll have the stetson. It is lavender, though. I would have put plantan but no one knows what that is

[Clippers of Nfl]

I saw what you did there. Well played.

 

Per my Sig, I wanted EJ in the worst possible fugging way. And when Goodell said "with the 16th pick, the buffalo bills select E . . . ." I was apoplectic with joy.

 

But after one preseason game, I almost like Tuel more. 2 reasons:

 

(1) Tuel goes through all his progressions. You can see his head/helmet moving around before he decides to make his throw. Accurately

 

(2) Tuel is looking to go downfield first. We have excellent downfield weapons now. If EJ is going to checkdown for the rest of his career with that huge cannon on his shoulder, then maybe he needs to step out of the way.

 

Case in point: At about the 6:41 mark of the 4th quarter, Tuel rolls out right on a designed roll-out. The TE in the flat is waving that he's open. Tuel is like "yeah, I see you, but hold on a second." You can see Tuel's head move back to the middle of the field, scanning for something downfield. Finally he "settles" for the dumpoff to the TE (who dropped it, but that's not the point).

 

People here on TBD have said that Tuel could be the next Frank Reich. To me, Tuel is Kirk Cousins. A legit NFL starter who happens to be stuck behind a legit NFL starter who was drafted higher (and yes, I know Tuel wasnt drafted at all, but you get my point).

That's the problem right there. Stop.

What did Ej do that was so poor on his part? He had that 2 minute drive just before half vs 2nd teamers. If we wanna grade difficulty level, Ej outplayed Tuel.

 

I like tuel, but I'm not in love with him after one preseason game. I wouldnt be going crazy for him after 1 (one) just one (one) (0+1) (2-1=1) REGULAR SEASON GAME. Why would I go crazy after 1 preseason game vs nfl dropouts???

 

Get real people.

[reddogblitz]

and look only at what players show on the field. Nothing else. If you look only at that, then Manuel and Tuel deserve to be competing for the starting spot, and Kolb does not.

By this logic, shouldn't we wait until Kolb gets "on the field" to determine what he can or can't do?

 

But what if, on the field, he's no better than Vick was for the Falcons, while Tuel is at or above Schaub's level?

With Vick at QB, the Falcons beat Green Bay in their own frozen tundra house in the playoffs and got to the NFC Championship Game. If EJ can do that for us, I'll be happy. Schaub is good too.

[Orton's Arm]

By this logic, shouldn't we wait until Kolb gets "on the field" to determine what he can or can't do?

 

 

With Vick at QB, the Falcons beat Green Bay in their own frozen tundra house in the playoffs and got to the NFC Championship Game. If EJ can do that for us, I'll be happy. Schaub is good too.

 

The thing about Vick was that sometimes he'd play above his usual level--as he did in the game you mentioned. He had enough big games for the Falcons to lull them into thinking that they didn't need to give Schaub a chance. So they didn't. Instead they traded him to the Texans. The Texans sure got the better end of that trade, I can tell you that! And the Falcons looked foolish for having traded away the better of their two quarterbacks. Had Vick not done the dog thing--or had he not gotten caught--the Falcons could have lingered for years with a quarterback not bad enough to cut, but not good enough to do much in the postseason.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

wanted to spice it up a little bit. Nope. I'll have the stetson. It is lavender, though. I would have put plantan but no one knows what that is

 

So you'll have a corsage of lavender in your hat band?

 

Or maybe you could do something like this:

 

 

:nana:

[bobblehead]

 

 

(1) Tuel goes through all his progressions. You can see his head/helmet moving around before he decides to make his throw. Accurately

 

(2) Tuel is looking to go downfield first. We have excellent downfield weapons now. If EJ is going to checkdown for the rest of his career with that huge cannon on his shoulder, then maybe he needs to step out of the way.

 

Case in point: At about the 6:41 mark of the 4th quarter, Tuel rolls out right on a designed roll-out. The TE in the flat is waving that he's open. Tuel is like "yeah, I see you, but hold on a second." You can see Tuel's head move back to the middle of the field, scanning for something downfield. Finally he "settles" for the dumpoff to the TE (who dropped it, but that's not the point).

 

 

Tuel did all of this because he could. As evidence from training camp, he can't do all of this under a blitz. That's the problem.

 

Please hold off on EJ not going downfield until we see him in a game where the play call let's him go downfield. Hackett all but confirmed this himself after the Colts game.

 

If Tuel "holds off on the TE" like that (if he actually did just that) in a real game, he will end up crawling off the field babbling about Pokemon cards. He does hold the ball a bit too much.

 

This all is not fair to Jeff Tuel, BTW, who does look good.

 

It's looking more and more like EJ was stuck with all the heavy lifting (thanks to a rubber mat), while Tuel got to coast and look pretty for the call-in radio tards.

 

But the fact that Tuel might be a little beyond playing in garbage time, no blitz late game pre-season is freaking awesome.

Edited August 14, 2013 by bobblehead

[JohnC]

The thing about Vick was that sometimes he'd play above his usual level--as he did in the game you mentioned. He had enough big games for the Falcons to lull them into thinking that they didn't need to give Schaub a chance. So they didn't. Instead they traded him to the Texans. The Texans sure got the better end of that trade, I can tell you that! And the Falcons looked foolish for having traded away the better of their two quarterbacks. Had Vick not done the dog thing--or had he not gotten caught--the Falcons could have lingered for years with a quarterback not bad enough to cut, but not good enough to do much in the postseason.

 

As you well know it is very difficult keeping two franchise caliber qbs on the roster at the same time. There are cap issues and also free agent issues after the expiration of either one of the contracts. Ddi Vick have more talent than Schaub? That is not a simple question that has an easy answer. Each qb has different skill sets and different strengths and liabilities. There is no doubt that Vick was more physically gifted while Schaub had a better mastery of the game. In addition, without question Schaub was the higher character person who also had the better work ethic.

 

However, The Falcons committed themselves to making Vick the centerpiece of their franchise from both a football standpoint and marketing standpoint. There also was a racial component in their market that influenced their keeping Vick over Schaub. There were a few years in which Vick was one of the most dynamic players in the game. Reinforcing the point that letting Vick go and keeping Schaub would have been a very difficult decison to make.

 

In another season or so the same scenario is going to play out in Washington with RGIII and Kirk Cousins. When Cousins contract runs out in a couple of years the Skins will have to deal him or he will be on the market as a free agent. Underscoring the point that franchises can't keep two quality qbs together on their roster for an extended period of time. There comes a point where the franchise has to decide which qb it will be invested in.

[MRW]

The thing about Vick was that sometimes he'd play above his usual level--as he did in the game you mentioned. He had enough big games for the Falcons to lull them into thinking that they didn't need to give Schaub a chance. So they didn't. Instead they traded him to the Texans. The Texans sure got the better end of that trade, I can tell you that! And the Falcons looked foolish for having traded away the better of their two quarterbacks. Had Vick not done the dog thing--or had he not gotten caught--the Falcons could have lingered for years with a quarterback not bad enough to cut, but not good enough to do much in the postseason.

Vick still has a more impressive postseason resume than Schaub.

[reddogblitz]

Vick still has a more impressive postseason resume than Schaub.

That was my point as well.

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

Maybe I'm a wuss, but I've been waiting for some Kyle Williams criticism before I chimed in, and finally got it.

Another overrated player from the old guard that we let hang around for too long (shoeble, Kelsey)

Shopp interviewed him Monday afternoon ,and although I'm too lazy to go back and quote him, I was not impressed.

Disgruntled, arrogant. When asked about the coaching staff, his reply was, well all coaching staffs are different. Didn't sound like he was to happy to practice the day after the game. When asked if he follows football outside of the bills, he said,no,he does other things. When asked if the kids were gonna play football, he wants them to play tennis or golf.

This stuff with his foot(feet) is getting old. And so is he.

[Matt in KC]

Maybe I'm a wuss, but I've been waiting for some Kyle Williams criticism before I chimed in, and finally got it.

Another overrated player from the old guard that we let hang around for too long (shoeble, Kelsey)

Shopp interviewed him Monday afternoon ,and although I'm too lazy to go back and quote him, I was not impressed.

Disgruntled, arrogant. When asked about the coaching staff, his reply was, well all coaching staffs are different. Didn't sound like he was to happy to practice the day after the game. When asked if he follows football outside of the bills, he said,no,he does other things. When asked if the kids were gonna play football, he wants them to play tennis or golf.

This stuff with his foot(feet) is getting old. And so is he.

Yup, you're a wuss. ...and maybe a troll.

 

No way has Kyle Williams "hung around too long," and neither did Aaron Schobel, who had 10 sacks his final year with us (2009). The next year, no Bill had more than 3.5 sacks (Kelsay)... except Kyle Williams who had 5.5 from the DT position!

 

That said, I was frustrated with Kelsay too, especailly when he didn't contain his side. But, I was madder at the front office for not scouting and coaching better. Also, I didn't hear the interview, so who knows. I'd be interested in a second opinion.

[maddenboy]

That's the problem right there. Stop.

What did Ej do that was so poor on his part? He had that 2 minute drive just before half vs 2nd teamers. If we wanna grade difficulty level, Ej outplayed Tuel.

 

I like tuel, but I'm not in love with him after one preseason game. I wouldnt be going crazy for him after 1 (one) just one (one) (0+1) (2-1=1) REGULAR SEASON GAME. Why would I go crazy after 1 preseason game vs nfl dropouts???

 

Get real people.

 

Right.

 

I emphasized that "after one preseason game" I "almost" like Tuel more. The sample size is stupidly small and I recognize that.

 

I was just trying to give Tuel an "attaboy." He is not going to win the starting job even if he outplays EJ.

 

I'm just saying that, whether garbage time or not, Tuel looks to be playing more like a field general.

[RuntheDamnBall]

The thing about Vick was that sometimes he'd play above his usual level--as he did in the game you mentioned. He had enough big games for the Falcons to lull them into thinking that they didn't need to give Schaub a chance. So they didn't. Instead they traded him to the Texans. The Texans sure got the better end of that trade, I can tell you that! And the Falcons looked foolish for having traded away the better of their two quarterbacks. Had Vick not done the dog thing--or had he not gotten caught--the Falcons could have lingered for years with a quarterback not bad enough to cut, but not good enough to do much in the postseason.

What Vick did was sometimes play to his talent level, which coming out of college was out of this world. For much of the rest of the time he coasted on the basis of this talent, believing it was enough to take him far, that he could "turn it on." He admitted as much.

 

On a pure talent level, there was no question that he was the best QB in that draft. His head was always the issue.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Michael Vick didn't work hard. He admitted it when he returned to the league… that he took it all for granted.

 

Kyle Williams in limited snaps Sunday looked outstanding.

[thewildrabbit]

The improved coaching really showed up in this game vs past coaching regimes. The coaches took their time with EJ and ran an up tempo, short passing scheme that kept pass rush pressure off EJ & Tuel. This allowed both QB's to gain confidence as the game went on, starting with short passes and then going a bit deeper.

 

The biggest thing that stood out to me was the 2 min drill at the end of the half with EJ going 10 plays, 92 yards in 1:36 which was brilliant. This was a complete reversal of what we saw last year with Fitz / Gailey against the Titans, 4 downs and out for the loss.

 

CJ averaged 9.0 on 4 carries. The WR corps looking great. The defense finally looked like they knew what they were doing.

 

Only week one in the pre season... but, a very promising start to this year. The win, plus the fact that the Colts owner whined about the results was nice to hear after so many years of losing badly