ajzepp Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 First let me ask that anyone willing to respond not bring an agenda into the conversation and derail it. I'm really interested in SPECIFIC responses to my question below. I know this topic can trigger a lot of divergent views and long-held passion, but I'm really curious to hear sincere answers to the question I'm posing. Okay, so here's the thing. I've always found those who consider themselves agnostic or atheists to have arrived at that position very honestly. Let's face it, even for those of us who do believe in God, it's not an easy thing to come by sometimes. I came across a new expression of atheism recently that honestly has me really wanting to bring it up as a discussion and to get the perspectives of those who share in this mindset. I have always been drawn to intellectuals, mainly for selfish reasons. I feel a day without learning or exploration is a day wasted, and intellectual types offer an endless buffet of opportunities to do exactly that. One of my favorite celebrities has been Penn Jillette. He's clearly functioning on a very high level not just with his humor or magic, but also with his politics and other areas. I found it interesting recently to hear him say that he did not have a position on global warming because "there is not enough evidence". This was interesting to me because I've always known him to be an atheist, and it would seem that it would be far more difficult to gather proper evidence to come to a conclusion on God and the hereafter than it would global warming, yet he's certain on the former while being undecided on the latter. This led me to look a bit further and I found that he, along with other atheists, have started going on youtube and making a public declaration to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. They do this because they are so certain there is no Judeo-Christian God that they are focusing on the one "unforgivable sin", per the Christian Bible, and committing it for all to see. So here is my question: There are things I do not believe in at all, say for example Voodoo and Mummy curses. But if I found myself among those who practice Voodoo or if I were on some excavation in Egypt attempting to recover mummified remains, there's absolutely no part of me that would purposely do something antagonistic or defiant. Even though I feel quite strongly that these things are not legit, there is still a part of me that respects the fact that I cannot know with certainty that my position is valid, no matter how unlikely or absurd the idea of it being real may be. If I were atheist, I cannot possibly imagine that I would ever be so bold in my assumptions that I would feel the need to commit an act that so many millions of people would view as heresy. It's not like we're talking about the Easter Bunny here...we're talking about GOD...something that people all over the world have dedicated their lives to, whether it be through the practice of faith, erudition, pastoral or clergical duties, whatever. I can understand a lack of faith and/or belief. But a lack of faith or belief has no bearing whatsoever on whether something is true or not true. What could possibly be to gain from this sort of act? How can there be NO consideration given to, "what if I'm wrong?" It just doesn't strike me as something an intelligent person would do, and that's why I'm interested to hear some feedback from others who may have more insight as to why an atheist would even bother himself with something like this? PS. If anyone woudl like to respond privately, please feel free to PM me. I will respect your privacy and not disclose your comments to anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Because they're dicks. I'm sure you already arrived at that conclusion, but just didn't want to say it. They have nothing to gain by it except blowing up their own egos by thinking, "hey, if that God does exist (which he totally doesn't), IN HIS FACE!" In the Christian worldview, they have been deceived to the point where they feel the need to blaspheme a God they don't even believe is there in order to attempt to deceive others. They are wolves who don't even bother to get dressed in the sheep's clothing in the morning. And I've never seen these videos. What exactly do they say? I find it hard to believe that an atheist can honestly commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which, if I understand it correctly, refers to attributing the miraculous works of Christ (or the Holy Spirit) to the demonic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Funny how so many of them love to celebrate Christmas and Easter too. Though they'll explain it away as simply Christian religion hijacking pagan ritualistic ceremonies - which "of course, have nothing to do with religion" lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 What's the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I'd chalk the videos up to arrogance- not arrogance in being too confident in their decision but arrogance in being jerks to people that believe (though I really haven't seen much of what your discussing first hand). To maybe spin the question around a bit though, what would it take for you to believe god was disproven, or religion a sham? Despite many followers still out there, these guys think they have seen that level of proof. On a purely academic level, does that possibility exist for you, or would there always be a level of "nope, not rolling the dice" that would stop you from declaring you were decided? Are there any religions out there currently that you don't show the same level of respect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 I'd chalk the videos up to arrogance- not arrogance in being too confident in their decision but arrogance in being jerks to people that believe (though I really haven't seen much of what your discussing first hand). To maybe spin the question around a bit though, what would it take for you to believe god was disproven, or religion a sham? Despite many followers still out there, these guys think they have seen that level of proof. On a purely academic level, does that possibility exist for you, or would there always be a level of "nope, not rolling the dice" that would stop you from declaring you were decided? Are there any religions out there currently that you don't show the same level of respect? Great question. With me, EVERY option is always on the table. I'm a man of faith, and I've come by that faith honestly by searching it out. But faith is not the same thing as knowledge, and I operate with the full understanding that my faith my one day be proved misplaced and that there, in fact, is no God. I think that's why I'm so taken aback by this. I consider my openness to the possibility of being wrong to be LOGICAL. The possibility exists, so therefore I acknowledge it. So when I come across an atheist that I consider to be highly intelligent up and does something as bold as this, it really makes me want to know more about what they're thinking. Even Stephen Hawking has, at least at some point in time, acknowledged the possibility of God. I believe his current position is consistent with atheism, or something along those lines, but I don't believe he's been in that camp his entire life. But yeah, my objective point of view is that it's not possible to KNOW with 100% certainty if God exists at this point in time, so I cannot say I am 100% certain that my faith is justified. Because they're dicks. I'm sure you already arrived at that conclusion, but just didn't want to say it. They have nothing to gain by it except blowing up their own egos by thinking, "hey, if that God does exist (which he totally doesn't), IN HIS FACE!" In the Christian worldview, they have been deceived to the point where they feel the need to blaspheme a God they don't even believe is there in order to attempt to deceive others. They are wolves who don't even bother to get dressed in the sheep's clothing in the morning. And I've never seen these videos. What exactly do they say? I find it hard to believe that an atheist can honestly commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which, if I understand it correctly, refers to attributing the miraculous works of Christ (or the Holy Spirit) to the demonic. lol....I did consider that it may just be that they're dicks, but I've always found Penn to be a well thought out, cordial person...at least in terms of his celebrity persona. Obviously I don't know the guy personally. I haven't seen the videos to be honest...I read it in an article. I'll try to find it and post a link. And I think you're probably correct that it's not really possible for them to actually do what they're intending, especially if they're non-believers...I'm just going on the assumption that they don't care either way. What's the question? lol, I realized as I was writing that that I wasn't exactly asking a direct question, but basically I'm asking WTF is wrong with these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Not sure you asked a question of anyone in this thread. A few thoughts. I had to look up how one blasphemes the holy spirit. Not even sure I still understand it but is it just denying god's existence? Is that what got you upset? You are quick to deny the Easter Bunny but is the Easter Bunny so different from Zues? Ra? A million other religions that we now call myths and fairy tales? Ask yourself: Did the priests and followers of those religions believe less fervently in their systems than a Christian or Muslim believes in theirs? Somewhere in that answer lies the nugget of most people's skepticism about absolutism of people's belief in their system. It's naive and an ultimate egocentrism that would allow one person to say "I got it right and the rest of you are wrong." The more reasonable religions say, "This is one path and we hope we have the answer, but we understand there are other paths." Anyone who says their religion is the true religion is wrong. Am I an atheist? Close. I struggle with the Aristotelean/Aquinus prime-mover type proofs like everyone. I certainly don't believe in a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist god. But I meditate daily and find peace in silence. I am kind and charitable. I have been to many religious services and don't insult my religious friends or argue with them about their beliefs that make no sense unless they open themselves to argument or push their stuff on me. I would guess most of this paragraph describes most of the growing atheist population. We just don't care for organized religion. It' doesn't add anything. But we're otherwise pretty normal people with the same lives religious people lead except on their day of worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 Funny how so many of them love to celebrate Christmas and Easter too. Though they'll explain it away as simply Christian religion hijacking pagan ritualistic ceremonies - which "of course, have nothing to do with religion" lol. Yeah, I've heard that quite a bit about the Pagan thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) Funny how so many of them love to celebrate Christmas and Easter too. Though they'll explain it away as simply Christian religion hijacking pagan ritualistic ceremonies - which "of course, have nothing to do with religion" lol. I celebrate Christmas and Easter and no, nothing to do with religion for me even though the days would not be on the calendar without religion. Christmas and Christmas-time is a day/season of goodwill rooted in my family's and many other's Christian backgrounds. Easter is less of a celebration but we do the eggs and basket in the same way we have turkey on Thanksgiving and grill out on the 4th of July. Edited August 10, 2013 by John Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 Not sure you asked a question of anyone in this thread. A few thoughts. I had to look up how one blasphemes the holy spirit. Not even sure I still understand it but is it just denying god's existence? Is that what got you upset? You are quick to deny the Easter Bunny but is the Easter Bunny so different from Zues? Ra? A million other religions that we now call myths and fairy tales? Ask yourself: Did the priests and followers of those religions believe less fervently in their systems than a Christian or Muslim believes in theirs? Somewhere in that answer lies the nugget of most people's skepticism about absolutism of people's belief in their system. It's naive and an ultimate egocentrism that would allow one person to say "I got it right and the rest of you are wrong." The more reasonable religions say, "This is one path and we hope we have the answer, but we understand there are other paths." Anyone who says their religion is the true religion is wrong. Am I an atheist? Close. I struggle with the Aristotelean/Aquinus prime-mover type proofs like everyone. I certainly don't believe in a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist god. But I meditate daily and find peace in silence. I am kind and charitable. I have been to many religious services and don't insult my religious friends or argue with them about their beliefs that make no sense unless they open themselves to argument or push their stuff on me. I would guess most of this paragraph describes most of the growing atheist population. We just don't care for organized religion. It' doesn't add anything. But we're otherwise pretty normal people with the same lives religious people lead except on their day of worship. This is really missing the mark of what I'm getting at. And nothing has me upset, I'm just curious if someone would have better understanding this than I do. As I said, I have a lot of respect for atheists and I value the intellectual "arm" of this population to further my own understanding of certain things. I'm not anti-atheist and I'm not meaning for this to turn into some sort of pissing contest. I don't know if this is the actual video that the article I read was referring to, but assuming it probably is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 "I denouce the holy spirit." WTF does that even mean? And I agree: Why say it? Just to be a dick? If someone asked me, "Do you believe in the holy spirit?" and I felt like answering, I'd say no. If someone asked me to "blaspheme the holy spirit," I'd think they were a douche and tell them so. I wouldn't refuse because I'm afraid. I'd refuse because it's retarded and only serves to be hurtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 "I denouce the holy spirit." WTF does that even mean? And I agree: Why say it? Just to be a dick? If someone asked me, "Do you believe in the holy spirit?" and I felt like answering, I'd say no. If someone asked me to "blaspheme the holy spirit," I'd think they were a douche and tell them so. I wouldn't refuse because I'm afraid. I'd refuse because it's retarded and only serves to be hurtful. Exactly...that's where the disconnect is for me. This is apparently some sort of "challenge" where they go beyond, as you stated, admitting lack of belief, and purposely attempt to "blaspheme" based on their understanding of what the Bible says. I think it's becoming clear to me why I'm interested in this...my personal belief - and one that I often have "Bible Christians" attacking me over - is that God will present everyone with whatever evidence they require to know clearly and without question that He exists. At that point, they can either choose to accept God or reject God, but it won't be based on some guessing game. When I see people doing this sort of thing with these videos, it's almost like what they're saying is that "even if I knew God existed, I'd still choose to reject". I can't really say if this is how they mean it or not, which is partly why I'm curious in this topic. Is it basically saying, "my belief is so strong that there is no God that it doesn't matter what I do or say", or are is their position more like "I dont' believe in God, and even if there WAS a God I would still choose to denounce Him and blaspheme against the HOly Spirit". Hopefully that makes things a bit more clear in terms of what I'm trying to figure out....I dunno lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Exactly...that's where the disconnect is for me. This is apparently some sort of "challenge" where they go beyond, as you stated, admitting lack of belief, and purposely attempt to "blaspheme" based on their understanding of what the Bible says. I think it's becoming clear to me why I'm interested in this...my personal belief - and one that I often have "Bible Christians" attacking me over - is that God will present everyone with whatever evidence they require to know clearly and without question that He exists. At that point, they can either choose to accept God or reject God, but it won't be based on some guessing game. When I see people doing this sort of thing with these videos, it's almost like what they're saying is that "even if I knew God existed, I'd still choose to reject". I can't really say if this is how they mean it or not, which is partly why I'm curious in this topic. Is it basically saying, "my belief is so strong that there is no God that it doesn't matter what I do or say", or are is their position more like "I dont' believe in God, and even if there WAS a God I would still choose to denounce Him and blaspheme against the HOly Spirit". Hopefully that makes things a bit more clear in terms of what I'm trying to figure out....I dunno lol I take it as "I'm so confident there's not that ill do this" as opposed to "even if there is, screw him" but likewise can't claim that as fact for everybody doing it (or anybody doing it, really) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Speaking specifically to Penn, I've heard him discuss his religious beliefs, and his atheism is more akin to what most consider agnosticism. It's not that he's declaring that he knows there is no God, but rather that he doesn't believe in God - and then he gives a semantic breakdown of how he landed on atheism as opposed to agnosticism. His views on religion and global warming are actually pretty consistent. I celebrate Christmas and Easter and no, nothing to do with religion for me even though the days would not be on the calendar without religion. Christmas and Christmas-time is a day/season of goodwill rooted in my family's and many other's Christian backgrounds. Easter is less of a celebration but we do the eggs and basket in the same way we have turkey on Thanksgiving and grill out on the 4th of July. I'm the same here. I grew up Christian, but my analytical mind won't allow me, no matter how hard I tried in my formative years, to accept it as truth. That doesn't mean that I don't still enjoy the traditions, and unlike some non-religious folks, i don't feel the need to denigrate those who do believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 With regards to the holidays - I'm not religious myself, but I do have a healthy respect for those that are respectful in their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. I celebrate Christmas and the like as an excuse to spend time with family, kick the generosity up a little extra, and celebrate life.... If its something even more for some of you - that's cool too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 If you think religion is completely silly and taken way to seriously by people--as I do--you are still going to like holidays. Not sure how this hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) The more reasonable religions say, "This is one path and we hope we have the answer, but we understand there are other paths." I know better than to join this discussion because I am no authority on faith, but what I do know is few true Christians would ever make the comment you imply above. There are not other paths. There is one. You qualify the comment by suggesting this is what is said by "more reasonable religions," but this is mostly a judgement call on your behalf. Yes, we can all agree that, say, The People's Temple was not a "reasonable religion," but I have read enough of your postings to suspect you don't find Catholicism reasonable either because of it's position on homosexuality. Again, I hesitate to wade in because I am no authority on the subject, but I do know that true Christians believe there is one path, and there is no 'hoping' they have the answer. As far as they are concerned, they know the answer and it's the only answer. Consequently I suspect you probably find true Christianity unreasonable simply because it is not open to the idea that other paths exist. Edited August 10, 2013 by LABillzFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I don't believe but I'm probably more agnostic than an atheist. I have many very religios friends and I never hold their beliefs against them and it never changes my thoughts about them. As a matter of fact I respect them and their belief for how dedicated they are. Volunteer work, going on missions etc. I don't get it either why people feel the need to bag on religious people. Ask Gene, he's very good at it. And I agree with Levi, he comes across as a dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) I know better than to join this discussion because I am no authority on faith, but what I do know is few true Christians would ever make the comment you imply above. There are not other paths. There is one. You qualify the comment by suggesting this is what is said by "more reasonable religions," but this is mostly a judgement call on your behalf. Yes, we can all agree that, say, The People's Temple was not a "reasonable religion," but I have read enough of your postings to suspect you don't find Catholicism reasonable either because of it's position on homosexuality. Again, I hesitate to wade in because I am no authority on the subject, but I do know that true Christians believe there is one path, and there is no 'hoping' they have the answer. As far as they are concerned, they know the answer and it's the only answer. Consequently I suspect you probably find true Christianity unreasonable simply because it is not open to the idea that other paths exist. Just for fun you aught not hesitate. What religion is reasonable? In what instance is it reasonable to take the scribblings of 1600, 2000, or 3000+ year old nomadic desert dwellers and say: "You know what, that's the answer to life, that is the word of God." "I take it on faith." Few people are anti-freedom in the sense of caring what people choose to do with their lives/mind, but a lot of people--even those who go to Church--know this stuff is just the stories of ancient people who went around doing ancient things that really should have a very limited bearing on our modern society. Useful perhaps as ancient philosophy and history--but if used as more and taken to seriously then it's a joke in my mind. If TC's point is that he can't imagine someone actually saying this, then how can he imagine a believer public praising God (which they a lot)? I have no idea what this topic is about at this point. Seems to be a stealth: "anyone who openly speaks about the absurdity of religion is a jackass topic." Edited August 10, 2013 by SameOldBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) Speaking specifically to Penn, I've heard him discuss his religious beliefs, and his atheism is more akin to what most consider agnosticism. It's not that he's declaring that he knows there is no God, but rather that he doesn't believe in God - and then he gives a semantic breakdown of how he landed on atheism as opposed to agnosticism. His views on religion and global warming are actually pretty consistent. I'm really interested to learn more about his position since I consider myself a fan (lower case "f") of his. I listened to his podcast a few weeks ago and, much like Ricky Gervais, it's almost like a constant mocking/bashing of religion/God. Maybe I just got him on a bad day, but sometimes it just seems like it's something they either just can't let go, or they are going for "shock effect" by going at it so hard. It's gotten to the point where if you look at Ricky Gervais twitter account, quite literally every day it's multiple posts about the topic. It's to the point where it's frustrating for me as a fan because I find the guy incredibly funny, but it's getting so annoying that he just can't get off the God thing. I'm sure a big part of it is because he's getting antagonized by Christians and others for his beliefs...I get that. But then the next thing you know he can't even get through the golden globes or whatever show he hosted without getting all into it again. Just for fun you aught not hesitate. What religion is reasonable? In what instance is it reasonable to take the scribblings of 1600, 2000, or 3000+ year old nomadic desert dwellers and say: "You know what, that's the answer to life, that is the word of God." "I take it on faith." Few people are anti-freedom in the sense of caring what people choose to do with their lives/mind, but a lot of people--even those who go to Church--know this stuff is just the stories of ancient people who went around doing ancient things that really should have a very limited bearing on our modern society. Useful perhaps as ancient philosophy and history--but if used as more and taken to seriously then it's a joke in my mind. If TC's point is that he can't imagine someone actually saying this, then how can he imagine a believer public praising God (which they a lot)? I have no idea what this topic is about at this point. Seems to be a stealth: "anyone who openly speaks about the absurdity of religion is a jackass topic." I figured at some point someone would take it there...this is partly why I find it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about the topic because everyone is so cynical. Edited August 10, 2013 by ajzepp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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