hondo in seattle Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 I don't buy it. Why? Our rushing stats. We were good in rushing, CJ if he had more carries would have been one of the leagues top 5 RB's. Look Glenn is a Guard, put him at guard, put someone with some speed at LT and lets address LT this offseason. Too late to worry about it now. CJ averaged 6.0 yards per carry last season but 3.6 yards came after contact. That was second best in the league, behind only AP. So was our line good? Or did CJ make them look good? The year before, Freddy also a great YAC metric and also made the line look good. The stats tell an ambivalent story. Fitz got rid of the ball very quickly and therefore didn't get sacked a lot. CJ got lots of yards after contact. And, as kobe888 points out, we didn't always see a lot of push in short yardage situation. While I'm optimistic that Marrone will find a way to move the ball, I think the folks with concerns about the line - especially after Levitre's departure - have a rational argument.
The Big Cat Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 CJ averaged 6.0 yards per carry last season but 3.6 yards came after contact. That was second best in the league, behind only AP. So was our line good? Or did CJ make them look good? The year before, Freddy also a great YAC metric and also made the line look good. The stats tell an ambivalent story. Fitz got rid of the ball very quickly and therefore didn't get sacked a lot. CJ got lots of yards after contact. And, as kobe888 points out, we didn't always see a lot of push in short yardage situation. While I'm optimistic that Marrone will find a way to move the ball, I think the folks with concerns about the line - especially after Levitre's departure - have a rational argument. But that doesn't necessarily mean he took contact on every play...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Did Gailey and Fitz make the Oline look better than it is Hell no. They misuded CJ and he was still 6th in the league in rushing.
microscopes Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Is anything more overrated than being named a Pro Bowler? What is your point, anyway? The fact that they are the top 10 most-sacked QBs could mean a few things. They hang on to the ball too long. - Newton Their teams passes more than other teams. - Rodgers Their O line is terrible. - Romo They're not that good. - Bradford What, exactly, are you trying to illustrate? That sacks are not an indicator of a poor/good offensive line or a poor/good coach. The thread title is "Did Gailey and Fitz make the Oline look better than it is?" And then went on to point to sacks as an identifying factor. Therefore, I am illustrating that sacks are not an indicator of what was said. If you don't like Pro Bowls, we can look at playoff appearances. 8 of the top 10 made the playoffs in the last two years.
thewildrabbit Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Absolutely yes. The O-line sucked for years. Gailey used essentially the same players Jauron had and made them work. The loss of Levitre or not, I expect the O-line to have a big drop in productivity this year. The thing is, we don't yet know if Marrone / Hackett will install a very similar passing offense to Gailey's or not, and if Kolb / EJ can't find the open receiver as quickly as Fitz could. The line could be just fine if the offensive passing system is predicated on a quick strike offense again. Its just that in Gailey's passing offense things were so one dimensional in terms of not being able to throw deep because of both Fitz's arm / accuracy limitations and the lack of deep 5-7 step drop backs. Same thing with the running offense as they ran great from passing sets and sucked in closed sets trying to make a 3rd and short. Kinda why Gailey almost always threw in those situations. OTOH, should the Bills want to utilize all the deep speed at WR they now have it might take some 5-7 step drop backs to get the job done. If this is the case we might just see how well the line legitimately pass blocks in a complete offense. Again, same thing with the running game as I know the Bills will run the ball more then Gailey did, but I'm not certain as to how effective they will be trying to block from closed sets, as Gailey did most of his running plays from passing sets. Gailey's smoke and mirror act along with the spread formation allowed Spiller / Jackson to take advantage of the opposing defense being in constant nickle / dime coverage. Which also allowed more big gains because of that spread formation. It should be very intriguing to see what kind of offense Marrone / Hackett will field, and with which QB.
Wayne Cubed Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Let's stick with Brady. If the one and only way to sack Brady is to send 8 players, two of them corner backs, and the corner backs get him every time, un touched, then that has little to no bearing on the offensive line. If that were the case, that ALL of the sacks came on corner blitzes, than that would lower the number, sure. But as we know, all sacks do not come on corner blitzes with Brady or Fitz. That would screw the numbers just as much as a line that gives up all coverage sacks. Which doesn't happen either.
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Gailey was a very good offensive coach and created great schemes. I'd much rather have Fitz as a backup/ mentor than Kolb. But there are some good players on this oline & it is a disservice to not given them credit. This team has averaged over 5 ypc with a qb defenses knew couldn't pass over 10 yards!
freester Posted August 8, 2013 Author Posted August 8, 2013 CJ averaged 6.0 yards per carry last season but 3.6 yards came after contact. That was second best in the league, behind only AP. So was our line good? Or did CJ make them look good? The year before, Freddy also a great YAC metric and also made the line look good. The stats tell an ambivalent story. Fitz got rid of the ball very quickly and therefore didn't get sacked a lot. CJ got lots of yards after contact. And, as kobe888 points out, we didn't always see a lot of push in short yardage situation. While I'm optimistic that Marrone will find a way to move the ball, I think the folks with concerns about the line - especially after Levitre's departure - have a rational argument. I think this sums up my feelings exactly. No way does Spiller come close to 6 yards/carry this year. I think the Defense will be much improved, but the offense could take a step back with a rookie QB and the loss of Levitre.
The Big Cat Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 I think this sums up my feelings exactly. No way does Spiller come close to 6 yards/carry this year. I think the Defense will be much improved, but the offense could take a step back with a rookie QB and the loss of Levitre and Gailey. Folks here really need to get on board with this very possible reality.
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Folks here really need to get on board with this very possible reality. Reality of an O-Lineman that is HC will have this O-Line right where it needs to be? Yea I agree with that reality. Coaches that have certain backgrounds do better in those areas then any other.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 I don't think the basketball offense chan ran got the ball out that much faster than other teams- 2 tenths better than average. Brady is still tops there. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/07/signature-stat-snapshot-time-to-throw/ Accurate pro QBs can hit a 40 yard bomb with a 3 step drop. Also remember EJ has got a faster drop so maybe he can get 5 steps or even 7 and create some distance from the rushers to buy an extra half second. Figure a pro WR can cover 40 yards in 4.5 seconds and the pass can be in the air up to 4 seconds maybe more... Average time to throw is 2.8 seconds... They are running west coast offenses. Adding all of this stuff together, I am not so sure we can conclude anything about what to expect this year. Everything is so different.
The Big Cat Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Reality of an O-Lineman that is HC will have this O-Line right where it needs to be? Yea I agree with that reality. Coaches that have certain backgrounds do better in those areas then any other. No, the reality that Gailey made our offensive personnel better than it should/would have been and better than it will probably be this year.
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) No, the reality that Gailey made our offensive personnel better than it should/would have been and better than it will probably be this year. So "your" reality? Sorry I just don't think that is the case. Maybe I am proven wrong this season but I really hope that isn't the case. If Marrone can't coach up the O-Line, and he has been spending lots of time with them, then we might have a bigger problem then just O-Line. That's why I'm not worried though. Edited August 8, 2013 by BuffaloFood
K-9 Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 I would hope any coach could make any unit on his team appear better than it is at one time or another. GO BILLS!!!
NewEra Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 It's my opinion that the line will look worse this year. Partly because we lost Levitre. Partly because we lost a great OL coach. Partly because we have a rookie QB. It seemed to me that we ran the ball out with fitz under center and a 2 wr set (which was rare), we got stone walled. Didn't seem like we were able to pound it down people's throats when we had to. That, to me, is where a good OL shows their dominance or lack thereof. Sure, we had a good ypc and overall running offense, but we weren't able to pound out those important 3rd/4th and shorts. Or....Maybe I was just too hammered and we actually excelled in those situations. But from my drunken recollection, we didnt. I don't have any stats to support my opinion.
boyst Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 End of the day I stand by what I said earlier. Fitzpatrick made his line look a lot better by playing so up and down all the time. His big errors would overshaddow the OL f'ups. Chans playcalling would do the same thing.
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 Don't forget EJ is waaaayyyy more mobile then Fitz.
NewEra Posted August 8, 2013 Posted August 8, 2013 End of the day I stand by what I said earlier. Fitzpatrick made his line look a lot better by playing so up and down all the time. His big errors would overshaddow the OL f'ups. Chans playcalling would do the same thing. Agreed
Mark Vader Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 CJ averaged 6.0 yards per carry last season but 3.6 yards came after contact. That was second best in the league, behind only AP. So was our line good? Or did CJ make them look good? The year before, Freddy also a great YAC metric and also made the line look good. The stats tell an ambivalent story. Fitz got rid of the ball very quickly and therefore didn't get sacked a lot. CJ got lots of yards after contact. And, as kobe888 points out, we didn't always see a lot of push in short yardage situation. While I'm optimistic that Marrone will find a way to move the ball, I think the folks with concerns about the line - especially after Levitre's departure - have a rational argument. First bolded segment: Is it not possible that both CJ & Fred & the O-Line all made each other look good? Second bolded segment: Yes it is a rational argument, but not the argument of this thread. Nevertheless, the loss of both Levitre & Reinhardt left a gaping hole at LG for the Bills. The front office did not address this issue and we have to go with who we have to step up at LG this year.
thebandit27 Posted August 9, 2013 Posted August 9, 2013 I'll now issue my usual perfunctory OL statement: when the OL is the biggest problem on this team, they'll be competing for a playoff spot.
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