Guard position battle not going so hot

[BADOLBILZ]

I will never agree with this. The Bills guards have sucked for two decades, and so have the Bills. Last year, they had a good pair of guards and even decent backups. They let go of their best blocker in order to chase yet another defensive back who is waving his middle finger at this franchise and it's fans. This with a rookie qb, and another who has already been beaten half to death.

Sorry my friend, this was a blatant act of stupidity and more of the same.

 

Btw, Colin Brown is a decent player but imo he is a center, not a guard. I hope to be pleasantly surprised but how often does it happen?

 

I don't know if Brown will be up to the task at guard but as we have discussed here before, I think Brown got a 2 year deal to be Eric Wood-insurance this year and potentially to be his replacement next year if Wood either blows another tire or has a good year and prices himself out. Brown is definitely a much bettter fit at center than at guard. You like to see more athleticism in a guard. Brown is basically a roadblock who can snap and setup and then use his 340 or so pounds to neutralize the initial push of a big nose tackle. To be fair though, the Bills line as a whole is a collection of zone-blockers if there ever was one.

[GG]

I will never agree with this.

 

That's why you need to get your sarcasm meter fixed.

[bowery4]

I will never agree with this. The Bills guards have sucked for two decades, and so have the Bills. Last year, they had a good pair of guards and even decent backups. They let go of their best blocker in order to chase yet another defensive back who is waving his middle finger at this franchise and it's fans. This with a rookie qb, and another who has already been beaten half to death.

Sorry my friend, this was a blatant act of stupidity and more of the same.

 

Btw, Colin Brown is a decent player but imo he is a center, not a guard. I hope to be pleasantly surprised but how often does it happen?

 

Bill, I agree with some of this, Brown looked okay at center. I think he can and will play guard, he is an excellent run blocker, his pass pro, not so much, at least last year and the year before when he filled in. I do and have thought they need to draft a bit more @ Olinemen. What we have now is a couple of high round picks (C, LT and RG 1st 2nd and 3rd) and then scrubs; most good teams have more invested (draft and money) than that. Wood is the best on the line but has the injury thing, Glenn seems decent. Urbick is sort of middling but has really improved especially when you consider both sides of him last year went down with injuries.

 

I don't think Gailey's scheme was so great at hiding the line's deficiencies, because Fitz had time a lot but still effed the passes up (IDK could he not see over Brown?). Other times there were weaknesses (RT would have been drafted if I was GM this year, maybe Sanders will step up but both we have now seem to have injuries too much too). I hope that Maroone can coach them up but SU's line was far from great, his line coach has a very impressive resume (as well as his at that position). I think talent is a key and do worry we are a bit short on it.

 

All that said, we need 5 healthy guys to play together for a significant length of time to make this work. They need to find and keep those guys, so they can really "gel".

 

Andy was good but his price was just more than the team wanted and IMO he also wanted out. Not really much you can do about that. Final cuts will come and there will be some okay guys out there. If Marrone is really unhappy, I can see him bringing someone else in .

Moore IMO would be a waste of resources (development time and $), I hope they stay away from that for the sake of the future.

I think the battle is Brown and Caldwell and that may even be okay. The big Lebowski can back up Wood, BTW I do think Rienhart was decent but had question marks for health. He was more replaceable than Andy which is what they did..

 

One last thing I hope they run the hell out of the ball this year (easier on the Oline) and start EJ, Kolb has deer in the headlights) eyes and reminds me of Trent. Use the run and win with it this year, it is where the talent on the team is most developed already.Also the D is untested (and just horrible last few years) and should get rested. If they really go no huddle at least a run game would help that. Will also help EJ develop at a better pace.

Edited August 2, 2013 by bowery4

[BaaadThingsMan]

Caldwell will start, Legursky and Brown are depth

[thebandit27]

-Wood and Levitre were drafted in 2009. They've had 4 drafts since then. It took 4 years to replace their LT.

 

You are correct; 2009 not 2010, my mistake. I still don't believe that his point stands regarding the OL going unaddressed for years when the team (up until this season) had 3 1st/2nd round picks starting on the line.

 

Levitre's gone anyways, so I don't know why you're counting him. They dumped three offensive linemen that year anyways.

 

Why am I counting Levitre? Because the statement the other poster made was that the team neglected the line...they drafted Levitre and Wood in the top 2 rounds of the same draft; that's not neglecting the line.

 

The "investment" in Pears was calling a guy who was sitting on his living room couch, unemployed. I'll say this about him...he's at least smart enough to get in someone's way for a second, sometimes two. He doesn't flat out whiff much, but if you're looking for 3 or more seconds of protection, that's not him. (PS.. PFF had the Bills at around 2.5 seconds in time to throw, around 29th in the league. https://www.profootb...-time-to-throw/)

 

The "investment" in Urbik was picking up a guy off of someone's practice squad. Like Pears, that's not exactly betting the house. Urbik, like Pears, can usually get in the way. But here's the rub with Urbik..watch the Bills pass plays for the past 2 years, Wood almost always moves to the right...to help Urbik.

 

Well now wait a minute. Are you denigrating the personnel moves because other teams didn't recognize that these guys could play? That doesn't seem fair to me. Urbik has been a solid guard, and Pears, when healthy, has been passable at RT.

 

As for the PFF link you posted, I have a few comments:

 

1) Just because a guy gets rid of the ball quickly doesn't mean that he doesn't have enough time to throw. Gailey ran a timing offense; of course Fitz would get rid of the ball quickly. I'm sure you noticed, having watched the team, that there were many, many occasions on which Fitz had plenty of time (and open WRs) in which he could (for example) wait and throw a deep ball, but didn't.

 

2) I'd like to draw your attention to the analysis on page 3 of that article. Namely, the following paragraph:

 

For some players there’s a clear disparity between when they have 2.5 seconds or less, or 2.6 or more, time to throw. Take a look at Tom Brady. His completion percentage is 19.8% higher when he attempts a pass within 2.5 seconds. There aren’t many players who get more accurate when they have more time to throw but rookie Ryan Tannehill leads the way with the biggest improvement (2.8%) when he attempts a pass after 2.6 seconds or more. He also experiences the biggest improvement in his quarterback rating (29 points) while Ryan Fitzpatrick has the biggest drop off (39.6 points) when he has a longer time to throw.

 

It's fairly obvious to me why Gailey's offense was predicated on quick-releases: it was required based on the limitations of his QB, not the limitations of his OL.

 

He could do that because Levitre was one of the better, if not the best pass protecting guard in the league. (I think PFF had him as the best last year, but I'm not sure). Stating the obvious, it is a lot easier to pass block when you're double teaming someone.

 

Yes, PFF had Levitre rated as the #1 pass blocking OG in 2013. Here's my question: how can you give Levitre credit for his personal pass-blocking rating (according to PFF, which is a highly subjective analysis to begin with), but not give the OL, as a unit, credit for the low number of sacks/pressures allowed by the team? Seems like duality to me.

 

Also, if we're taking PFF analysis as credible, it's worth noting that they had Levitre rated as the 39th best OG in the NFL in run blocking (for whatever it's worth, Chad Rinehardt graded out higher than this).

 

Herein lies the rub for this year...Wood might not be able to help Urbik on most plays if he has to help out Legursky (the worst pass protector on the Steelers last year), or Brown (who's started 2 whole games in his career).

 

I think you're making a leap of logic here. There are a lot of things that might happen along the line this year; one of them is as you stated, while another is that Brown/Caldwell/Legursky/someone else may fill in that LG spot just fine.

 

When people start coming through the middle because Wood can't help on both sides...will we start hearing the "well, he's really not that good" statements? Probably.

 

At the least, I don't expect him to be re-signed.."you don't pay a center 6 million a year, or 5 million a year."

 

Again, I think it's way to soon to be assuming these kinds of things, especially based off of one quote from a July practice. Don't you think it's more fair to give these guys a shot before we condemn the entire OL based on Eric Wood's potential for helping out on a given play?

 

Also, I do expect Wood to be re-signed, just like many players before him. Remember, the team did give extensions to Stevie, Fitz, Freddie, Urbik, Pears, Kyle Williams, McKelvin, G. Wilson, and others. Whether you agree with the quality of the players they extended or not, it's not as though they've let the majority of their FAs walk out the door...quite the opposite in fact.

 

But of course, "Buddy is happy with the people on the roster"...you know, the line that was given when they didn't try to replace their best lineman either through FA'cy OR the draft.

 

People actually believed that line.

 

Two things:

 

1) I'm guessing the team said that because...wait for it...it was true.

 

2) Again, don't you want to wait to see how it plays out on the field before lambasting the team's decision?

 

Now, if you want to know what a good GM does, look at Ozzie.

 

A few years ago, he drafts 2 guards, Grubbs in the first, Yanda in the 3rd. Both are PB quality.

 

But he won't, or can't pay both. So he gives Yanda 6.5 million a year, and lets Grubbs go.

 

But....and here's the key. He uses a 2nd on Osemele so the loss of Grubbs doesn't sting too much.

 

That's because Ozzie puts a premium on the Oline. It isn't a once-every-4-to-5 years investment. He regularly uses a pick in rounds 1-3 at least every other year.

 

Yes, Ozzie is a great GM, and he does spend a fair number of premium picks on the OL, good point.

 

You know who else is a great GM? Jerry Reese. Has more Superbowls to his credit in the last 5 years than Ozzie even. How many OLmen has he drafted in the first 3 rounds in his career as a GM?

 

Just one: LT Will Beatty in 2009.

 

They've also let starters like Shaun O'Hara, Rich Seubert, Kareem McKenzie, etc. walk in FA in consecutive years without spending high draft picks on a replacement, yet they've won 2 Superbowls in the last 5 years.

 

Also look at a team like New Orleans, that has had one of the best offenses in football perenially over the last 5 years. They NEVER spend high draft picks on the OL, and let one of the 3 best guards in football, Carl Nicks, leave in FA. Yes, they spent money on Ben Grubbs to replace him, and then let LT Jermon Bushrod leave in FA this year.

 

Point is: different GMs do things different ways, and there are many ways to have success in this league.

 

In closing, I'll offer my overall sentiment on the OL situation: when the OL becomes the biggest problem on this team--above things like QB, WR, pass rush, LB play, and secondary play--they'll be competing for a divisional title.

[K-9]

You are correct; 2009 not 2010, my mistake. I still don't believe that his point stands regarding the OL going unaddressed for years when the team (up until this season) had 3 1st/2nd round picks starting on the line.

 

 

 

Why am I counting Levitre? Because the statement the other poster made was that the team neglected the line...they drafted Levitre and Wood in the top 2 rounds of the same draft; that's not neglecting the line.

 

 

 

Well now wait a minute. Are you denigrating the personnel moves because other teams didn't recognize that these guys could play? That doesn't seem fair to me. Urbik has been a solid guard, and Pears, when healthy, has been passable at RT.

 

As for the PFF link you posted, I have a few comments:

 

1) Just because a guy gets rid of the ball quickly doesn't mean that he doesn't have enough time to throw. Gailey ran a timing offense; of course Fitz would get rid of the ball quickly. I'm sure you noticed, having watched the team, that there were many, many occasions on which Fitz had plenty of time (and open WRs) in which he could (for example) wait and throw a deep ball, but didn't.

 

2) I'd like to draw your attention to the analysis on page 3 of that article. Namely, the following paragraph:

 

For some players there’s a clear disparity between when they have 2.5 seconds or less, or 2.6 or more, time to throw. Take a look at Tom Brady. His completion percentage is 19.8% higher when he attempts a pass within 2.5 seconds. There aren’t many players who get more accurate when they have more time to throw but rookie Ryan Tannehill leads the way with the biggest improvement (2.8%) when he attempts a pass after 2.6 seconds or more. He also experiences the biggest improvement in his quarterback rating (29 points) while Ryan Fitzpatrick has the biggest drop off (39.6 points) when he has a longer time to throw.

 

It's fairly obvious to me why Gailey's offense was predicated on quick-releases: it was required based on the limitations of his QB, not the limitations of his OL.

 

 

 

Yes, PFF had Levitre rated as the #1 pass blocking OG in 2013. Here's my question: how can you give Levitre credit for his personal pass-blocking rating (according to PFF, which is a highly subjective analysis to begin with), but not give the OL, as a unit, credit for the low number of sacks/pressures allowed by the team? Seems like duality to me.

 

Also, if we're taking PFF analysis as credible, it's worth noting that they had Levitre rated as the 39th best OG in the NFL in run blocking (for whatever it's worth, Chad Rinehardt graded out higher than this).

 

 

 

I think you're making a leap of logic here. There are a lot of things that might happen along the line this year; one of them is as you stated, while another is that Brown/Caldwell/Legursky/someone else may fill in that LG spot just fine.

 

 

 

Again, I think it's way to soon to be assuming these kinds of things, especially based off of one quote from a July practice. Don't you think it's more fair to give these guys a shot before we condemn the entire OL based on Eric Wood's potential for helping out on a given play?

 

Also, I do expect Wood to be re-signed, just like many players before him. Remember, the team did give extensions to Stevie, Fitz, Freddie, Urbik, Pears, Kyle Williams, McKelvin, G. Wilson, and others. Whether you agree with the quality of the players they extended or not, it's not as though they've let the majority of their FAs walk out the door...quite the opposite in fact.

 

 

 

Two things:

 

1) I'm guessing the team said that because...wait for it...it was true.

 

2) Again, don't you want to wait to see how it plays out on the field before lambasting the team's decision?

 

 

 

Yes, Ozzie is a great GM, and he does spend a fair number of premium picks on the OL, good point.

 

You know who else is a great GM? Jerry Reese. Has more Superbowls to his credit in the last 5 years than Ozzie even. How many OLmen has he drafted in the first 3 rounds in his career as a GM?

 

Just one: LT Will Beatty in 2009.

 

They've also let starters like Shaun O'Hara, Rich Seubert, Kareem McKenzie, etc. walk in FA in consecutive years without spending high draft picks on a replacement, yet they've won 2 Superbowls in the last 5 years.

 

Also look at a team like New Orleans, that has had one of the best offenses in football perenially over the last 5 years. They NEVER spend high draft picks on the OL, and let one of the 3 best guards in football, Carl Nicks, leave in FA. Yes, they spent money on Ben Grubbs to replace him, and then let LT Jermon Bushrod leave in FA this year.

 

Point is: different GMs do things different ways, and there are many ways to have success in this league.

 

In closing, I'll offer my overall sentiment on the OL situation: when the OL becomes the biggest problem on this team--above things like QB, WR, pass rush, LB play, and secondary play--they'll be competing for a divisional title.

 

Good work here, bandit.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[bobshaw81]

I don't think spending one high draft pick(Glenn) on the O-line since 2009 is addressing the problem thats been plaguing this team for years(other then QB).

 

There should have been some sort of plan to replace Levitre with a good player through the draft or FA. I still hope we pick someone up. I dont want a late round draft pick or cast off from another team protecting our rookie QB. We've been down this road too many times already. They were late round picks, released, or undrafted for a reason(lack of skill). Yes, there is a chance Brown/Caldwell/Legursky may fill the role just fine, but how many times has that worked out for us in the past. I'd say its a small chance one of them succeeds. The Bills can barely hit the broad side of a barn. And no, I dont think it fair to give these guys a shot because they have already failed thier previous teams and were unwanted. "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"

 

If you seriously think Pears, when healthy, is a passable RT "then consider me Miles Davis". I dont know what Bills games you were watching last year but he was awful. He is 30+ journeymen who regressed last year.

 

And to your points about NYG and NO. Your missing the main point. NYG has a top 10 clutch QB in Eli, arguably the best dual treat in receivers, and every year they have a successful RB by committee that scores many, many rushing TDs. They can beat you running or throwing. Pick your poison. NO has an elite QB, elite TE, great poession receiver in Colston, and a good RB by committee. Its just a matter of time before Brees picks your team apart. Both of theses teams have been successful franchises for a while now and can afford to downgrade their line because they can mask it with their establised offensive systems and QBs. We have neither.

[K-9]

There are different ways to assemble offensive lines. The greatest OL we ever had consisted of 2 1st rounders, 2 free agents, and an 11th rounder.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

I don't think spending one high draft pick(Glenn) on the O-line since 2009 is addressing the problem thats been plaguing this team for years(other then QB).

 

Once again you're off the mark here. The OL hasn't been "plaguing the team for years"; they were very good in both 2011 and 2012. When they needed to upgrade the LT position, they drafted Glenn. I'm still completely baffled by what you wanted them to do in the last 5 years, outside of drafting a guard to replace Levitre.

 

There should have been some sort of plan to replace Levitre with a good player through the draft or FA. I still hope we pick someone up. I dont want a late round draft pick or cast off from another team protecting our rookie QB. We've been down this road too many times already. They were late round picks, released, or undrafted for a reason(lack of skill). Yes, there is a chance Brown/Caldwell/Legursky may fill the role just fine, but how many times has that worked out for us in the past. I'd say its a small chance one of them succeeds. The Bills can barely hit the broad side of a barn. And no, I dont think it fair to give these guys a shot because they have already failed thier previous teams and were unwanted. "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"

 

There was a plan to replace Levitre: let the guys on the roster, plus a few level 2 free agents, battle it out for the spot. Just because you don't like the plan doesn't mean there wasn't one. In response to your question of "how many times has that worked?": the answer is twice. Once with Urbik, and once with Pears. Yes, Pears has been fine at RT when healthy. Those last 2 words are important to remember; he was hobbled to start last season and never got fully healthy, hence his ending up on IR. Also, to correct another fallacy, the guys they've brought in aren't all "late round picks, released, or undrafted". For one, Antoine Caldwell was a 3rd round pick who was a free agent that went unsigned. It's also worth noting that a lot of guys don't stick with their first team, and yes, many of them are offensive linemen. Think about it: how do you think guys like Jonathan Goodwin end up the starting center for the Saints (and then the 49ers) after being cut by the Jets after riding the pine for 3-1/2 seasons?

 

And to your points about NYG and NO. Your missing the main point. NYG has a top 10 clutch QB in Eli, arguably the best dual treat in receivers, and every year they have a successful RB by committee that scores many, many rushing TDs. They can beat you running or throwing. Pick your poison. NO has an elite QB, elite TE, great poession receiver in Colston, and a good RB by committee. Its just a matter of time before Brees picks your team apart. Both of theses teams have been successful franchises for a while now and can afford to downgrade their line because they can mask it with their establised offensive systems and QBs. We have neither.

 

No, I'm not missing anything. The point I responded to was that a good GM places emphasis on the OL. My response was that yes, one good GM does do that, but others place the emphasis elsewhere, like on QB, DL, etc. If you're argument is that you need a franchise QB to overcome OL deficiencies, then I cannot understand why you refuse to take a wait-and-see approach, when it's quite clear that Buffalo believes that they drafted their franchise QB in EJ Manuel.

 

I'll continue to say it: when the OL becomes the biggest problem on this team--above things like QB, WR, pass rush, LB play, and secondary play--they'll be competing for a divisional title.

 

That's the point.

 

There are different ways to assemble offensive lines. The greatest OL we ever had consisted of 2 1st rounders, 2 free agents, and an 11th rounder.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I feel like I've read this somewhere before...

[Leelee Phoenix]

I laughed hard when Murph said that Caldwell is a serious contender for the starting LG. Very embarrassing situation. Even if they strike gold with one of these street bums, just more evidence this is a rinky dink organization.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

In closing, I'll offer my overall sentiment on the OL situation: when the OL becomes the biggest problem on this team--above things like QB, WR, pass rush, LB play, and secondary play--they'll be competing for a divisional title.

 

Bingo. Well said.

[thebandit27]

I laughed hard when Murph said that Caldwell is a serious contender for the starting LG. Very embarrassing situation. Even if they strike gold with one of these street bums, just more evidence this is a rinky dink organization.

 

Um, why? Please don't tell me that you believe this solely based upon the fact that they didn't spend big money on a LG, because that would be...well...an interesting way to think.

[eball]

I laughed hard when Murph said that Caldwell is a serious contender for the starting LG. Very embarrassing situation. Even if they strike gold with one of these street bums, just more evidence this is a rinky dink organization.

 

I laugh hard when I read most of your nonsensical, over-the-top efforts to denigrate anything and everything done by the Bills organization. Reasoned critique is one thing; what you do is something altogether different.

[mattsox]

In the last press conference, Marrone called out Doug Legursky and Colin Brown for pretty much getting torched and not showing what he had hoped would come from that battle. I know that inside guard is not as important as the tackle spot but hearing this from coach doesn't exactly make you feel confident about a new QB coming in into that situation. Looking back when we finish this season I wonder how detrimental the Levitre loss will end up being to the development of the new offense as well as the new QB whoever it ends up being. This also could force an easier decision from Marrone on the QB to go in the direction of the more mobile QB Manuel since he'll be rolling away from the pressure or running for his life possibly. Was he lighting a fire or was he saying man we look like poop nuggets at that position?

 

And We couldn't have re-signed Levitre? Because of why now???

[beerme1]

And We couldn't have re-signed Levitre? Because of why now???

 

Andy is a good guy and solid player but I'm willing to bet 80% around here would be pissed off if we gave him the kind of money that Tennessee did. But they know what they're doing I guess. I mean, they also signed Fitz right?

Edited August 2, 2013 by beerme1

[Best Player Available]

And We couldn't have re-signed Levitre? Because of why now???

Uhh, because Jeff Littman and a fan forum decided he wasn't worth the money? Not even to protect a rookie QB.

Priorities first, with the Buffalo Bills that is profit, as much as they can stuff into the vault.

Building a good team is secondary. Enjoy any rookie or player playing above average, and still in their first contract.

Good chance,They will be gone when their rookie contract expires.

[K-9]

I feel like I've read this somewhere before...

 

If you already made this point and I missed this earlier, my apologies. But I think I can just chalk it up to great minds thinking alike.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

And We couldn't have re-signed Levitre? Because of why now???

 

Because he was didn't want to re-sign with Buffalo. The Titans deal preclude him from doing so.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited August 2, 2013 by K-9

[thebandit27]

Uhh, because Jeff Littman and a fan forum decided he wasn't worth the money? Not even to protect a rookie QB.

Priorities first, with the Buffalo Bills that is profit, as much as they can stuff into the vault.

Building a good team is secondary. Enjoy any rookie or player playing above average, and still in their first contract.

Good chance,They will be gone when their rookie contract expires.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, they didn't feel he was worth the $8M+/year he was asking for...nah, that couldn't be it...gotta be some evil intention to screw the fans.

 

Also, good job ignoring the fact that--in the last 5 years--the team has re-signed the vast majority of their free agents. Guess that just didn't jibe with your agenda.

 

If you already made this point and I missed this earlier, my apologies. But I think I can just chalk it up to great minds thinking alike.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

We actually both made this point earlier; I was attempting to give you the nod for that one.

[K-9]

Uhh, because Jeff Littman and a fan forum decided he wasn't worth the money? Not even to protect a rookie QB.

Priorities first, with the Buffalo Bills that is profit, as much as they can stuff into the vault.

Building a good team is secondary. Enjoy any rookie or player playing above average, and still in their first contract.

Good chance,They will be gone when their rookie contract expires.

 

Levitre was gone long before that rookie QB was a reality.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Best Player Available]

Or maybe, just maybe, they didn't feel he was worth the $8M+/year he was asking for...nah, that couldn't be it...gotta be some evil intention to screw the fans.

 

Also, good job ignoring the fact that--in the last 5 years--the team has re-signed the vast majority of their free agents. Guess that just didn't jibe with your agenda.

 

 

 

.

Jibe with my agenda? In the last 20 years the Bills have sucked. that aside, Please post up the link where Levitre or his agent demanded 8 million a year. Find it and enlighten us all. All I can find are his comments posted somewhere on this board. That Before FA he was disappointed the bills never made him an offer. But, keep writing hearsay, it apparently helps you with your coping process of a bottom feeder, who lets decent talent walk. Although bring back peerless at his salary was well priceless, what a FO. Franchise history of wins/losses/ties? 370-426-8. Seems they could use some talent to get the stink off the deck.