Guard position battle not going so hot

[1B4IDie]

Dave DeCastro would have looked fine in Bills blue.

Because he winds up on IR?

 

 

This is SO true!!! Geoff Tate has proven to be one of the biggest douchebags on the planet earth...There's your proof...

 

 

 

Exactly to all points...Great post...

Exactly to your exactly.

 

Thanks for your service to our country!

 

(I assume you have been out of contact in Afghanistan or somewhere since your post would be spot-on 4 years ago, but is pretty off-base in 2013.)

Nice Work!

 

We'll see who is right when our QB is getting crushed. Keep on drinking the kool aid that gets us to no playoffs in 13 years and failed regime after failed regime. Congrats! And dont stil there on your high horse like your **** dont stink and tell me I'm wrong when this is a message board and everyone has their own opinion. You sir are ok with mediocore and celebrate 7-9 seasons like we made the playoffs and actually have a damn chance to build something special. Until there is commitment on drafting positions of need(not luxury), signing and retaining our best players the BILLS will forever suck like we have.

 

Too many people on this board are ok with mediocore.

You're wrong that the Bills haven't invested in the O-Line. This has nothing do with horses, the smell of feces, or opinions.

 

You said it and you were corrected. If you say something erroneous you should be expected to be called out on it.

[thebandit27]

We'll see who is right when our QB is getting crushed. Keep on drinking the kool aid that gets us to no playoffs in 13 years and failed regime after failed regime. Congrats! And dont stil there on your high horse like your **** dont stink and tell me I'm wrong when this is a message board and everyone has their own opinion. You sir are ok with mediocore and celebrate 7-9 seasons like we made the playoffs and actually have a damn chance to build something special. Until there is commitment on drafting positions of need(not luxury), signing and retaining our best players the BILLS will forever suck like we have.

 

Too many people on this board are ok with mediocore.

 

Oh the irony.

 

You posted a few things that were flat-out incorrect, so a few of us responded by telling you why. Why that incites a rant about your perception that we accept mediocrity (which I'm not sure how you made that conclusion based on one post) I'm not sure, but hey, I'll bet it made you feel better.

 

If you don't want to be told you're wrong, don't post things like "the OL hasn't been addressed in years" when the team has spent 1st/2nd round picks on 3 starters in the last 5 years.

[Snorom]

We'll see who is right when our QB is getting crushed. Keep on drinking the kool aid that gets us to no playoffs in 13 years and failed regime after failed regime. Congrats! And dont stil there on your high horse like your **** dont stink and tell me I'm wrong when this is a message board and everyone has their own opinion. You sir are ok with mediocore and celebrate 7-9 seasons like we made the playoffs and actually have a damn chance to build something special. Until there is commitment on drafting positions of need(not luxury), signing and retaining our best players the BILLS will forever suck like we have.

 

Too many people on this board are ok with mediocore.

 

but those who replied, replied with facts that called out some of your non-factual opinions

 

Looks like you got your feelers hurt and are now upset that the facts don't match your opinion, and are over reacting. You should gracefully accept you are incorrect, because we are all occasionally

 

 

maybe our problems had more to do with sub-par QB, sub par LB crew, and piss poor coaching/scheme

 

All 3 have been addressed this year, and we have to take the wait and see attitude on that

Edited August 1, 2013 by Snorom

[thewildrabbit]

Legursky, was a scrub who wouldn't have started any games if not for injury. Why was he allowed to walk? he sucks.

Judging by the FA cornerback signing recently and others, it appears that Whaley will continue the Bills tradition of dumpster diving.

But they will pay 5 mil per for McKelvin?? A completely mediocre corner who would not have received anywhere close to that deal on the open market.

And, hope they hit one a decent if unspectacular player once in awhile. Look at contenders, do they do the same year after year?

Is this the way well run franchises build a super bowl contending team? or is this the way a team builds a 9-7 possible wild card team to placate the masses? The O-line could be a big issue this year including the RT spot.

 

Marrone and company may be the only bright spot along with a couple of rookies this season.

So true, good points. It just amazes me that even with supposed new younger, brighter minds in charge (GM) that the exact same things keep occurring year after year. This is in regards to letting Levitre walk and then finding less the adequate talent to replace him.

 

Another thing that amazes me is that while quite a few Bills fans think Buddy Nix was a moron... yet endorse his sentiments about player positions. With the thinking that guards are a dime a dozen and just not a very important position. Yet there is a reason that there are 15 guards in the HoF, and there are more O linemen in the hall (39) then in any other position.

 

Once again our downfall will be the offensive line. This has not been addressed for years and continues to be the worst unit I feel on our team. I dont wanna hear about how good out line was last year. Gailey knew they sucked and taliored a quick pass spread offense to not make them look bad. We take luxury pick after luxury pick at skill postions when what we really need is big fat athletic talented men on the O-Line. Whats the point in having multiple number 2 or 3 WRs when you can't get the ball to them and you are more of a running team. Maybe Woods, Goodwin, Grahm(why is easley still on the team, just stupid) will pan out but we need a starting caliber RT, LG, and some depth for when/if injuries occur. I love Wood but even those freak injuries really hurt us and we need someone capable behind him. Pears was god awful last year. Hairston was hardly any better. Glenn looked good but I still want to see more. There is no depth at all. We lose our most consistent player on the line in Levitre. Instead we overpay for Merriman, Kelsay, Anderson, McKelvin and let the good players walk like Greer, Levitre and i pray not Byrd. He is the best safety in the game, and one of the best players on our team. Our game will be won in the trenches and not with young WRs, CBs or Safties. The offensive line situation really irritates me.

 

GO BILLS

The Bills have addressed the line in free agency and the draft over the last few years. Although, clearly just not as much as some of us would like.

 

The only player I'm content with at their respective position is Eric Wood, who is a stud at center. But what good is he if the team starts making a playoff run and he goes down with another season ending injury, just like he has every year since he was drafted. LG remains a big question mark in my view and there is a reason Doug Marrone is calling out some players to step it up. I know I'd feel more confident with the line with Brandon Moore in there at 4 mill per rather then Legursky.

 

I agree with the bolded, and I know that i'm mostly alone with the thought that I won't be happy until the Bills line is as good as the 49ers

[eball]

We'll see who is right when our QB is getting crushed. Keep on drinking the kool aid that gets us to no playoffs in 13 years and failed regime after failed regime. Congrats! And dont stil there on your high horse like your **** dont stink and tell me I'm wrong when this is a message board and everyone has their own opinion. You sir are ok with mediocore and celebrate 7-9 seasons like we made the playoffs and actually have a damn chance to build something special. Until there is commitment on drafting positions of need(not luxury), signing and retaining our best players the BILLS will forever suck like we have.

 

Too many people on this board are ok with mediocore.

 

Is the 81 in bobshaw81 your age? 'cause you rant like an old fart. It wasn't your opinion people corrected, it was your inaccurate facts.

[bobshaw81]

If the O-line has been addressed like some of you say, why do we have holes in it every single year? Spending 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, round picks on O line is not addressing the problem. You will most likely get a backup player. Not re-signing your most consistent O line men the last few years in Levitre is not addressing the problem. Signing other teams cast-off O line does not address the problem. Are you telling me Pears is a starting right tacke? What are you smoking? Even Hairston a starter? Urbik was a good sign, but he does not WOW anyone. Good teams draft multiple O line men consistently in early rounds. Not WRs, RBs, S, and LBs. Welcome to the losing culture in Buffalo that many people on this website support. Sorry, I dont have time for 13,000 posts. I work

[BillsWatch]

Too many people on this board are ok with mediocore.

 

Mods certainly are - they let you still post with your mediocre spelling and posts

[VanCity]

Dave DeCastro would have looked fine in Bills blue.

 

With all respect Senator, so would Chance Warmack, but I'll take Gilmore and Manuel in this case. DeCastro wouldn't have filled a need in the 2012 draft in the way that Gilmore did. letting Andy go bites, but Guards can be coached up. CB's with loose hips, toughness, speed and cover skills and QB's with mobility, leadership, huge arms and athleticism don't fall into your lap too often.

[Trader]

The Offensive guard spot is a real weakness on this team. Actually it is the one factor in the Manuel situation that worries me. I do not want him injured in the first few weeks. The up the middle rush has ruined more than one potential starter. My opinion is that they should not start EJ until they are convinced that the OL can protect at least at the average NFL level. If the position needs to be addressed by a trade than by all means do so.

[CookieG]

There are several flaws in your post:

 

1) No, the OL hasn't gone unaddressed for years. The team spend a 2nd round pick on Glenn, a 1st on Wood, a 4th on Hairston, a 2nd on Levitre, and signed both Pears and Urbik do long-term deals. All since 2010.

 

2) You can point to Gailey's quick passing game if you want, but there are actually statistical outfits that go to great lengths to examine OL play to account for things like quick passing plays and RB's ability. Just have a look at Football Outsiders, who do this kind of thing yearly:

 

http://www.footballo...rs.com/stats/ol

 

The Bills rank highly in both the running and passing categories, which account for RB play, QB pressures, release timing, etc.

 

-Wood and Levitre were drafted in 2009. They've had 4 drafts since then. It took 4 years to replace their LT.

 

Levitre's gone anyways, so I don't know why you're counting him. They dumped three offensive linemen that year anyways.

 

The "investment" in Pears was calling a guy who was sitting on his living room couch, unemployed. I'll say this about him...he's at least smart enough to get in someone's way for a second, sometimes two. He doesn't flat out whiff much, but if you're looking for 3 or more seconds of protection, that's not him. (PS.. PFF had the Bills at around 2.5 seconds in time to throw, around 29th in the league. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/07/signature-stat-snapshot-time-to-throw/)

 

The "investment" in Urbik was picking up a guy off of someone's practice squad. Like Pears, that's not exactly betting the house. Urbik, like Pears, can usually get in the way. But here's the rub with Urbik..watch the Bills pass plays for the past 2 years, Wood almost always moves to the right...to help Urbik.

 

He could do that because Levitre was one of the better, if not the best pass protecting guard in the league. (I think PFF had him as the best last year, but I'm not sure). Stating the obvious, it is a lot easier to pass block when you're double teaming someone.

 

Herein lies the rub for this year...Wood might not be able to help Urbik on most plays if he has to help out Legursky (the worst pass protector on the Steelers last year), or Brown (who's started 2 whole games in his career).

 

 

So when Wood is helping out the left side...how's Urbik going to do by himself?

 

We'll find out I guess. So far, Marrone doesn't sound too happy with Levitre's replacements.

 

Maybe Antoine Caldwell takes over. If it works out, that'd be great..but he's suffered ankle injuries the last 2 years and got benched last year. maybe he can make a comeback.

 

What you could likely see is a domino effect Wood needs to shuffle back and forth, You can only cover so many holes with one guy. And when you start to shuffle them...it usually doesn't work. Take the Ravens last year. McKinnie was lazy and Harbaugh wouldn't play him. So they put Oher at LT and Osemele at RT. Neither did much at their respective positions and overall line play suffered.

 

But when McKinnie finally decided to get back in the game, Oher moved back to RT and Osemele went to guard. They became dominant then.

 

When people start coming through the middle because Wood can't help on both sides...will we start hearing the "well, he's really not that good" statements? Probably.

 

At the least, I don't expect him to be re-signed.."you don't pay a center 6 million a year, or 5 million a year."

 

The line went from 3 high draft choices and 2 cast offs to 2 high draft choices and 3 cast offs. If Wood is gone, it'll be 1 high draft choice and 4 cast offs.

 

But of course, "Buddy is happy with the people on the roster"...you know, the line that was given when they didn't try to replace their best lineman either through FA'cy OR the draft.

 

People actually believed that line.

 

Now, if you want to know what a good GM does, look at Ozzie.

 

A few years ago, he drafts 2 guards, Grubbs in the first, Yanda in the 3rd. Both are PB quality.

 

But he won't, or can't pay both. So he gives Yanda 6.5 million a year, and lets Grubbs go.

 

But....and here's the key. He uses a 2nd on Osemele so the loss of Grubbs doesn't sting too much.

 

That's because Ozzie puts a premium on the Oline. It isn't a once-every-4-to-5 years investment. He regularly uses a pick in rounds 1-3 at least every other year.

[NickelCity]

OLine is far and away the most concerning group for me. I'm fully in support of finding a way to bring in a vet.

[jumbalaya]

Pears is less than average, no left guard, average right guard, good left tackle. Once Wood goes down again this line will be a sieve.

[3rdand12]

the Marrone call out is kinda fun.

Whatever the motivation.

Since he WAS a lineman and likes the hands on approach i expect alot from his O line in the future.

Maybe not this year ,but soon .

Brandon moore is Officially retired as per PFT last week i think.

Nickel city " far and away your biggest concern" ? I think we have some running neck and neck for #1 2 3 and 4 concerns.

Coach loves his competition y'know

 

Pears is less than average, no left guard, average right guard, good left tackle. Once Wood goes down again this line will be a sieve.

and Wood well might . i agree except Pears is average or a bit above.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Dave DeCastro would have looked fine in Bills blue.

I will take a guy with potential shut down corner written all over him vs a good guard.

[thewildrabbit]

the Marrone call out is kinda fun.

Whatever the motivation.

Since he WAS a lineman and likes the hands on approach i expect alot from his O line in the future.

Maybe not this year ,but soon .

Brandon moore is Officially retired as per PFT last week i think.

Nickel city " far and away your biggest concern" ? I think we have some running neck and neck for #1 2 3 and 4 concerns.

Coach loves his competition y'know

 

and Wood well might . i agree except Pears is average or a bit above.

"Updating a previous item, free agent G Brandon Moore says he does not intend to retire.

 

Considering Moore was a 2011 Pro Bowler and graded out as PFF's No. 4 overall guard last year, retirement wouldn't make much sense. He says he's "in shape," "ready to go," and just waiting for the right opportunity. In other words, Moore wants starting-caliber money. It remains to be seen if he'll get that at age 33"

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/875/brandon-moore

[thebandit27]

 

 

-Wood and Levitre were drafted in 2009. They've had 4 drafts since then. It took 4 years to replace their LT.

 

Levitre's gone anyways, so I don't know why you're counting him. They dumped three offensive linemen that year anyways.

 

The "investment" in Pears was calling a guy who was sitting on his living room couch, unemployed. I'll say this about him...he's at least smart enough to get in someone's way for a second, sometimes two. He doesn't flat out whiff much, but if you're looking for 3 or more seconds of protection, that's not him. (PS.. PFF had the Bills at around 2.5 seconds in time to throw, around 29th in the league. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/07/signature-stat-snapshot-time-to-throw/)

 

The "investment" in Urbik was picking up a guy off of someone's practice squad. Like Pears, that's not exactly betting the house. Urbik, like Pears, can usually get in the way. But here's the rub with Urbik..watch the Bills pass plays for the past 2 years, Wood almost always moves to the right...to help Urbik.

 

He could do that because Levitre was one of the better, if not the best pass protecting guard in the league. (I think PFF had him as the best last year, but I'm not sure). Stating the obvious, it is a lot easier to pass block when you're double teaming someone.

 

Herein lies the rub for this year...Wood might not be able to help Urbik on most plays if he has to help out Legursky (the worst pass protector on the Steelers last year), or Brown (who's started 2 whole games in his career).

 

 

So when Wood is helping out the left side...how's Urbik going to do by himself?

 

We'll find out I guess. So far, Marrone doesn't sound too happy with Levitre's replacements.

 

Maybe Antoine Caldwell takes over. If it works out, that'd be great..but he's suffered ankle injuries the last 2 years and got benched last year. maybe he can make a comeback.

 

What you could likely see is a domino effect Wood needs to shuffle back and forth, You can only cover so many holes with one guy. And when you start to shuffle them...it usually doesn't work. Take the Ravens last year. McKinnie was lazy and Harbaugh wouldn't play him. So they put Oher at LT and Osemele at RT. Neither did much at their respective positions and overall line play suffered.

 

But when McKinnie finally decided to get back in the game, Oher moved back to RT and Osemele went to guard. They became dominant then.

 

When people start coming through the middle because Wood can't help on both sides...will we start hearing the "well, he's really not that good" statements? Probably.

 

At the least, I don't expect him to be re-signed.."you don't pay a center 6 million a year, or 5 million a year."

 

The line went from 3 high draft choices and 2 cast offs to 2 high draft choices and 3 cast offs. If Wood is gone, it'll be 1 high draft choice and 4 cast offs.

 

But of course, "Buddy is happy with the people on the roster"...you know, the line that was given when they didn't try to replace their best lineman either through FA'cy OR the draft.

 

People actually believed that line.

 

Now, if you want to know what a good GM odoes, look at Ozzie.

 

A few years ago, he drafts 2 guards, Grubbs in the first, Yanda in the 3rd. Both are PB quality.

 

But he won't, or can't pay both. So he gives Yanda 6.5 million a year, and lets Grubbs go.

 

But....and here's the key. He uses a 2nd on Osemele so the loss of Grubbs doesn't sting too much.

 

That's because Ozzie puts a premium on the Oline. It isn't a once-every-4-to-5 years investment. He regularly uses a pick in rounds 1-3 at least every other year.

 

I'll have to respond to this mega post when I get home...too much for the iPhone to handle

[atlbillsfan1975]

"Updating a previous item, free agent G Brandon Moore says he does not intend to retire.

 

Considering Moore was a 2011 Pro Bowler and graded out as PFF's No. 4 overall guard last year, retirement wouldn't make much sense. He says he's "in shape," "ready to go," and just waiting for the right opportunity. In other words, Moore wants starting-caliber money. It remains to be seen if he'll get that at age 33"

 

http://www.rotoworld...5/brandon-moore

Every day he sits there, i think reality begins to set in, no?

I am sure at this point he is playing the 'lets see who gets hurt in camp' game.

But even then, a team is not likely to hand out a big multi year deal to a guard they are only hoping to rent for a year.

Lets hope our guys step up and answer the challenge and the Bills do not need to spend money at another position.

[Bill from NYC]

Guards are plug n play.

 

I will never agree with this. The Bills guards have sucked for two decades, and so have the Bills. Last year, they had a good pair of guards and even decent backups. They let go of their best blocker in order to chase yet another defensive back who is waving his middle finger at this franchise and it's fans. This with a rookie qb, and another who has already been beaten half to death.

Sorry my friend, this was a blatant act of stupidity and more of the same.

 

Btw, Colin Brown is a decent player but imo he is a center, not a guard. I hope to be pleasantly surprised but how often does it happen?

[thewildrabbit]

Every day he sits there, i think reality begins to set in, no?

I am sure at this point he is playing the 'lets see who gets hurt in camp' game.

But even then, a team is not likely to hand out a big multi year deal to a guard they are only hoping to rent for a year.

Lets hope our guys step up and answer the challenge and the Bills do not need to spend money at another position.

Whats wrong with renting a guy for a year to protect that 1st round pick at QB. It also seems to me that Moore would be way cheaper then Levitre (perhaps 1/2 the price) and what looks like as much, if not more talent.

[turftoe]

 

 

Just say no to anyone who spells Jeff G-E-O-F-F.

 

Or anyone who spells Greg with 2 Gs at the end.