Guard position battle not going so hot

[thebandit27]

Jibe with my agenda? In the last 20 years the Bills have sucked. that aside, Please post up the link where Levitre or his agent demanded 8 million a year. Find it and enlighten us all. All I can find are his comments posted somewhere on this board. That Before FA he was disappointed the bills never made him an offer. But, keep writing hearsay, it apparently helps you with your coping process of a bottom feeder, who lets decent talent walk. Although bring back peerless at his salary was well priceless, what a FO. Franchise history of wins/losses/ties? 370-426-8. Seems they could use some talent to get the stink off the deck.

 

How about the link to his $8M/year contract? Will that do?

 

http://www.spotrac.c...s/andy-levitre/

 

Do you really think his agent didn't know what he'd get on the open market? Why would he settle for less here? Now I'll ask you: do YOU have a link saying he was willing to take less than $8M, since that's what he signed for?

 

Or maybe his quote about how free agency is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Would that give you any insight to his approach toward free agency?

 

http://profootballta...ing-from-bills/

 

Or maybe the Bills just understood what he'd get on the open market, and didn't value him anywhere near that much, is that possible?

 

It's not a "coping process", it's simply understanding what the team did. Did I want Levitre to leave? Absolutely not. Am I glad the team didn't pay him that ridiculous contract? Yes, that's an absurd amount of money for a guy that isn't as good as players like Josh Sitton and Marshall Yanda, who make right around $2M less per season and have made pro bowls.

 

Also, I can abide that the team has sucked for the last 13 years, but the last 20 would include everything dating back to 1993, so either your math really, really, really sucks, or you are exaggerating by about 50%.

 

You said yourself, in the quoted post (I've bolded it for you) that Levitre is a "decent talent". Are you really comfortable paying a guy you yourself categorize as a "decent talent" the top salary at his position in the NFL?

 

If you are, then I'm afraid you'd be a terrible GM.

Edited August 2, 2013 by thebandit27

[Best Player Available]

How about the link to his $8M/year contract? Will that do?

 

http://www.spotrac.c...s/andy-levitre/

 

Do you really think his agent didn't know what he'd get on the open market? Why would he settle for less here? Now I'll ask you: do YOU have a link saying he was willing to take less than $8M, since that's what he signed for?

 

Or maybe his quote about how free agency is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Would that give you any insight to his approach toward free agency?

 

http://profootballta...ing-from-bills/

 

Or maybe the Bills just understood what he'd get on the open market, and didn't value him anywhere near that much, is that possible?

 

It's not a "coping process", it's simply understanding what the team did. Did I want Levitre to leave? Absolutely not. Am I glad the team didn't pay him that ridiculous contract? Yes, that's an absurd amount of money for a guy that isn't as good as players like Josh Sitton and Marshall Yanda, who make right around $2M less per season and have made pro bowls.

 

Also, I can abide that the team has sucked for the last 13 years, but the last 20 would include everything dating back to 1993, so either your math really, really, really sucks, or you are exaggerating by about 50%.

 

You said yourself, in the quoted post (I've bolded it for you) that Levitre is a "decent talent". Are you really comfortable paying a guy you yourself categorize as a "decent talent" the top salary at his position in the NFL?

 

If you are, then I'm afraid you'd be a terrible GM.

Actually that link won't do. I asked for a link where his demand was 8 million a year. Not what another bottom feeding team overpaid for.

[K-9]

How about the link to his $8M/year contract? Will that do?

 

http://www.spotrac.c...s/andy-levitre/

 

Do you really think his agent didn't know what he'd get on the open market? Why would he settle for less here? Now I'll ask you: do YOU have a link saying he was willing to take less than $8M, since that's what he signed for?

 

Or maybe his quote about how free agency is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Would that give you any insight to his approach toward free agency?

 

http://profootballta...ing-from-bills/

 

Or maybe the Bills just understood what he'd get on the open market, and didn't value him anywhere near that much, is that possible?

 

It's not a "coping process", it's simply understanding what the team did. Did I want Levitre to leave? Absolutely not. Am I glad the team didn't pay him that ridiculous contract? Yes, that's an absurd amount of money for a guy that isn't as good as players like Josh Sitton and Marshall Yanda, who make right around $2M less per season and have made pro bowls.

 

Also, I can abide that the team has sucked for the last 13 years, but the last 20 would include everything dating back to 1993, so either your math really, really, really sucks, or you are exaggerating by about 50%.

 

You said yourself, in the quoted post (I've bolded it for you) that Levitre is a "decent talent". Are you really comfortable paying a guy you yourself categorize as a "decent talent" the top salary at his position in the NFL?

 

If you are, then I'm afraid you'd be a terrible GM.

 

For the coin he signed for, my guard has to DOMINATE his position and be the second coming of John Hannah. Levitre doesn't come close. Excellent pass blocker, below average run blocker. Good tactician, but gets overpowered at the POA more often than I'd like to see from the position. While I';m glad he capitalized on his "once in a lifetime opportunity", I'm glad it's somewhere else for that money.

 

But, like Byrd, he is a fan forum 1st ballot HOFer because the Bills "let him go."

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Koufax]

I looked under a rock and found an offensive guard this morning. Nothing to see here.

 

Was it Dockery? If so did you offer him a $50M contract?

[thebandit27]

Actually that link won't do. I asked for a link where his demand was 8 million a year. Not what another bottom feeding team overpaid for.

 

So you think Tennessee simply came in and offered him way more than anyone else would have? That's not how these things work.

 

Agents know what their guy is going to get on the open market when he's the top FA at his position. When Mario became a FA, he was going to get $16M/year with guarantees in the $50M range, it was just a question of who was going to give it to him. Same for Peyton Manning last year: it was going to be $20M/year with ~$60M guaranteed.

 

Levitre was going to get a top-5 guard salary in the NFL, that's how free agency works. His agent would've been crazy to tell him to sign for less than that. This is a simple application of logic; no link or quote required.

 

Now, I'll ask you again: do YOU have a link saying he was willing to take less than $8M, since that's what he signed for?

 

For the coin he signed for, my guard has to DOMINATE his position and be the second coming of John Hannah. Levitre doesn't come close. Excellent pass blocker, below average run blocker. Good tactician, but gets overpowered at the POA more often than I'd like to see from the position. While I';m glad he capitalized on his "once in a lifetime opportunity", I'm glad it's somewhere else for that money.

 

But, like Byrd, he is a fan forum 1st ballot HOFer because the Bills "let him go."

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Agreed. I mean, look at this list:

 

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/guard/

 

Which one doesn't belong? The other guys like Nicks, Evans, Mankins, Joseph, Snee, Grubbs, Yanda...these guys are pro bowlers that dominate. Levitre is not in their class.

[K-9]

So you think Tennessee simply came in and offered him way more than anyone else would have? That's not how these things work.

 

Agents know what their guy is going to get on the open market when he's the top FA at his position. When Mario became a FA, he was going to get $16M/year with guarantees in the $50M range, it was just a question of who was going to give it to him. Same for Peyton Manning last year: it was going to be $20M/year with ~$60M guaranteed.

 

Levitre was going to get a top-5 guard salary in the NFL, that's how free agency works. His agent would've been crazy to tell him to sign for less than that. This is a simple application of logic; no link or quote required.

 

Now, I'll ask you again: do YOU have a link saying he was willing to take less than $8M, since that's what he signed for?

 

 

 

Agreed. I mean, look at this list:

 

http://www.spotrac.c.../average/guard/

 

Which one doesn't belong? The other guys like Nicks, Evans, Mankins, Joseph, Snee, Grubbs, Yanda...these guys are pro bowlers that dominate. Levitre is not in their class.

 

I'd take any one of those guys before Levitre.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Fan in Chicago]

I'd take any one of those guys before Levitre.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Sure. But they were not available. I have openly expressed unhappiness regarding not able to retain Levitre. While I am not saying Levitre is the top at his position. But if the difference between the Bills and Titans offer was $1 MM/yr (as is my recollection from the discussion during his neogotiation) it would have made sense for the Bills to overpay slightly and not create a hole. My frustration is that I don't want to reconcile this loss with 'we need to save money to pay Wood, CJ' and then when the time comes, be in the same position. If we lose one or both, will we again try to feel better by saying they needed too much money ? At some point, the Bills have to spend the money and not keep pushing this 'future' agenda which may or may not come to pass.

We took a while getting to a position of strength on the OLine and would hate to see it slowly dismantled. I do not want to see the era of Dockery, Walker etc. Before this season, I was drooling at the thought of a Glenn-Levitre-Wood-Urbik-Hairston line to protect a young QB. Levitre is gone and Hairston is injured (hopefully not too serious).

[K-9]

Sure. But they were not available. I have openly expressed unhappiness regarding not able to retain Levitre. While I am not saying Levitre is the top at his position. But if the difference between the Bills and Titans offer was $1 MM/yr (as is my recollection from the discussion during his neogotiation) it would have made sense for the Bills to overpay slightly and not create a hole. My frustration is that I don't want to reconcile this loss with 'we need to save money to pay Wood, CJ' and then when the time comes, be in the same position. If we lose one or both, will we again try to feel better by saying they needed too much money ? At some point, the Bills have to spend the money and not keep pushing this 'future' agenda which may or may not come to pass.

We took a while getting to a position of strength on the OLine and would hate to see it slowly dismantled. I do not want to see the era of Dockery, Walker etc. Before this season, I was drooling at the thought of a Glenn-Levitre-Wood-Urbik-Hairston line to protect a young QB. Levitre is gone and Hairston is injured (hopefully not too serious).

 

I think I've said as much about the Levitre situation as I can. I honestly don't recall a $1m dollar difference. Be that as it may, I would be very disappointed if they didn't make all out efforts to re-sign both Wood and Spiller who are both better at their respective positions, and one, Spiller, is a genuine elite talent. There aren't seven centers I'd rather have and there is only one RB I'd rather have.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

I think I've said as much about the Levitre situation as I can. I honestly don't recall a $1m dollar difference. Be that as it may, I would be very disappointed if they didn't make all out efforts to re-sign both Wood and Spiller who are both better at their respective positions, and one, Spiller, is a genuine elite talent. There aren't seven centers I'd rather have and there is only one RB I'd rather have.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I agree with this; I'll be very disappointed if Wood or Spiller are allowed to hit FA

[CookieG]

You are correct; 2009 not 2010, my mistake. I still don't believe that his point stands regarding the OL going unaddressed for years when the team (up until this season) had 3 1st/2nd round picks starting on the line.

 

Why am I counting Levitre? Because the statement the other poster made was that the team neglected the line...they drafted Levitre and Wood in the top 2 rounds of the same draft; that's not neglecting the line.

 

I wouldn't say it necessarily stands either. They did take some steps in the right direction...limitedly. And...with the higher draft choices...they were showing improvment. Instead of building on that, or at least staying at pace,.they went right back to their MO. .

To me, it even isn't so much that they didn't re-sign Levitre, though they certainly could have. Its that they did 0 to replace him.

 

Well, he's no longer here..and they didn't replace him.

 

 

Well now wait a minute. Are you denigrating the personnel moves because other teams didn't recognize that these guys could play? That doesn't seem fair to me. Urbik has been a solid guard, and Pears, when healthy, has been passable at RT.

 

 

 

As for the PFF link you posted, I have a few comments:

 

1) Just because a guy gets rid of the ball quickly doesn't mean that he doesn't have enough time to throw. Gailey ran a timing offense; of course Fitz would get rid of the ball quickly. I'm sure you noticed, having watched the team, that there were many, many occasions on which Fitz had plenty of time (and open WRs) in which he could (for example) wait and throw a deep ball, but didn't.

 

2) I'd like to draw your attention to the analysis on page 3 of that article. Namely, the following paragraph:

 

For some players there’s a clear disparity between when they have 2.5 seconds or less, or 2.6 or more, time to throw. Take a look at Tom Brady. His completion percentage is 19.8% higher when he attempts a pass within 2.5 seconds. There aren’t many players who get more accurate when they have more time to throw but rookie Ryan Tannehill leads the way with the biggest improvement (2.8%) when he attempts a pass after 2.6 seconds or more. He also experiences the biggest improvement in his quarterback rating (29 points) while Ryan Fitzpatrick has the biggest drop off (39.6 points) when he has a longer time to throw.

 

It's fairly obvious to me why Gailey's offense was predicated on quick-releases: it was required based on the limitations of his QB, not the limitations of his OL.

 

Oh please. Let's stop pretending the Bils are smarter than other teams, especially when it comes to the OL.

 

I've seen Pears and Urbik enough, and my opinion stands. Urbik needs help from the center, Pears can at least get in the way of a pass rusher for a second or two.

 

 

All you have to do is watch where the pass rushers are when Fitz threw the ball. The PFF article didn't do anything but confirm what many already knew.

 

And that's not all bad. I've thought for the past 2 years that they did a pretty good job of not letting anyone come in cleanly...getting a direct shot.

 

But that's not the same as giving 3 seconds on a regular basis, and 4 or 5 seconds on occasion.

 

How another QB is going to do, especially if you are wanting more deep patterns, remains to be seen.

 

Yes, PFF had Levitre rated as the #1 pass blocking OG in 2013. Here's my question: how can you give Levitre credit for his personal pass-blocking rating (according to PFF, which is a highly subjective analysis to begin with), but not give the OL, as a unit, credit for the low number of sacks/pressures allowed by the team? Seems like duality to me.

 

Also, if we're taking PFF analysis as credible, it's worth noting that they had Levitre rated as the 39th best OG in the NFL in run blocking (for whatever it's worth, Chad Rinehardt graded out higher than this).

 

It shouldn't. And I explained it in my previous post...as well as earlier in this post.

 

1) They actually did a good job of not letting people in cleanly;

2) The ball came out quickly;

3) Levitre didn't need help. That left Wood free to help Urbik and/or pick up a blitz.

 

When you remove the guy that doesn't need help from the equation, and replace him with someone that most likely will need help...things can, and usually do, change. If Wood is helping Legursky or Colin Brown, a blitzer comes in...or Urbik gets beat. OR a combination of the two. It can be a little more than..."ah, its only one guy."

 

I don't know how they graded it. If it is power blocking, possibly, he never was a road grader. On the other hand, he was very good at getting to the outside, and very good at getting to the 2nd level. (actually, Glenn and Wood are both pretty good at getting to the 2nd level themselves).

 

I think you're making a leap of logic here. There are a lot of things that might happen along the line this year; one of them is as you stated, while another is that Brown/Caldwell/Legursky/someone else may fill in that LG spot just fine.

 

Again, I think it's way to soon to be assuming these kinds of things, especially based off of one quote from a July practice. Don't you think it's more fair to give these guys a shot before we condemn the entire OL based on Eric Wood's potential for helping out on a given play?

 

 

I could go up to the casino tonight and win enough at craps to pay off my mortgage too, but it isn't all that likely. And if I was behind on my mortgage, I wouldn't tell my bank that was my plan.

 

You can wait if you want, I've seen the play a number of times.

 

We want to see what D Bell can do;

We like what we've seen from Kirk Chambers;

This Jamon Meredith was a pretty highly regarded prospect before he was cut;

That Terrance Pennington sure has some long arms, prototypical for an OT;

Boy, that Ed Wang as a cool name.

 

What's not fair is that every time they don't bother to replace someone, the same line gets used.

 

You'd think that when the line was last used, right after the draft, and they just brought in two more people to "compete", that ...people would catch on. Guess not.

 

Anyways. the only one I really have that much hope for is Caldwell, provided he's healthy again and is ready to compete.

 

I actually wanted the Bills to use a late round pick on Legursky and had hopes for him. But it may be the lack of height (a cocern coming out of Marshall), but he hasn't shown to be starting quality, at least not in pass protection. I don't know what would have changed since then.

 

Also, I do expect Wood to be re-signed, just like many players before him. Remember, the team did give extensions to Stevie, Fitz, Freddie, Urbik, Pears, Kyle Williams, McKelvin, G. Wilson, and others. Whether you agree with the quality of the players they extended or not, it's not as though they've let the majority of their FAs walk out the door...quite the opposite in fact.

 

We'll see. But I doubt it.

 

 

Two things:

 

1) I'm guessing the team said that because...wait for it...it was true.

 

2) Again, don't you want to wait to see how it plays out on the field before lambasting the team's decision?

 

If it was actually true, they wouldn't be brining in guys like Legursky and Caldwell. Spare me the depth argument. They're looking for a starter.

 

And again, I've seen the play before, I don't need to wait. Feel free though, I won't spoil the ending.

 

Yes, Ozzie is a great GM, and he does spend a fair number of premium picks on the OL, good point.

 

You know who else is a great GM? Jerry Reese. Has more Superbowls to his credit in the last 5 years than Ozzie even. How many OLmen has he drafted in the first 3 rounds in his career as a GM?

 

Just one: LT Will Beatty in 2009.

 

They've also let starters like Shaun O'Hara, Rich Seubert, Kareem McKenzie, etc. walk in FA in consecutive years without spending high draft picks on a replacement, yet they've won 2 Superbowls in the last 5 years.

 

Also look at a team like New Orleans, that has had one of the best offenses in football perenially over the last 5 years. They NEVER spend high draft picks on the OL, and let one of the 3 best guards in football, Carl Nicks, leave in FA. Yes, they spent money on Ben Grubbs to replace him, and then let LT Jermon Bushrod leave in FA this year.

 

1) Jerry Reese doesn't have a single starter who was another teams cast off, much less 3. David Baas wasn't a cast off, he was a bona fide FA.

 

2) Almost all of his guys are from within..and he's pretty good at getting quality from mid round picks. But that's Jerry Reese. when was the last tiem the Bills got a quality starter from a mid round pick? Or a late round? There was Peters as a UFDA 9 years ago and there there was...um...well, Butler wasn't bad at guard for a year or two.

 

3) You actually have to pick guys in the mid rounds to be Jerry Reese. This year, after their best Olineman left..there were two pretty good prospects in the 4th. Schwenke from Cal. was the 2nd best center ranked, and could easily go to guard. Barrett Jones won the Outland Trophy and played 3 different positions. In a way, he's a bit of a Levitre clone. Smart, agile enough, very good at using angles, can get to the 2nd level.

 

We took another safety. I'm sorry, I've seen this play before.

 

4) Jerry Reese isn't afraid to retain talent and pay for it. Well before it became fashionable to say, "you don't pay a guard X millions of $$, he gave Chris Snee a 42 million contract. He's been making between 6.5 and 7 million since 2008. He doesn't buy into that mantra.

 

5) As David Diehl ages and Kevin Boothe remains lukewarm...he drafted Justin Pugh in the 1st as an eventual replacement. He already has James Brewer being groomed. He's not rummaging through NFL trash bins looking for starters.

 

 

As far as the Saints go:

 

I'm kind of surprised you brought up NO, but lets go with it.

 

In 2010, they made Jahri Evans the highest paid interior lineman in the NFL. There we go again with that "you don't pay a guard

that type of money" stuff. ( I can't believe people still say that nonsense).

 

So they can't afford to have the no. 1 and no. 3 highest paid interior linemen on their team (Mankins passed Evans on the money scale).

 

So they keep Evans, let Nix go and replace him...by paying 6.5 million for Ben Grubbs, a PB quality guard in his own right.

 

Do you see the difference here?

 

Do you see the difference between bringing in a PB quality lineman for over 6 million

 

...and bringing in someone who's started less than 1/2 of his career...and was just dumped by his former team?

 

Point is: different GMs do things different ways, and there are many ways to have success in this league.

 

Without a doubt. I'd rather mimic the better teams. I'd love to do what the Giants do.

I'd love to do what the Saints did.

I'd love to do what Ozzie does. Hell, I'd kill to have Ozzie.

 

But we don't. Not where the OL is concerned. I thought we were headed in that direction..but we're back to "we really have high hopes for this 27 year old guy that's never started before".

 

In closing, I'll offer my overall sentiment on the OL situation: when the OL becomes the biggest problem on this team--above things like QB, WR, pass rush, LB play, and secondary play--they'll be competing for a divisional title.

 

Well, we didn't do anything for 4 years at QB and WR either so....maybe at least that's a step in the right direction.

[BillsVet]

If it was actually true, they wouldn't be brining in guys like Legursky and Caldwell. Spare me the depth argument. They're looking for a starter.

 

Across multiple GM's, the Bills haven't and aren't investing in their OL. When they do it's out of sheer desperation and not proactively. Instead, a player leaves or is let go and they are in a panic to replace that person.

 

Case in point was the 2009 draft. People here told us they were willing to invest given the drafting of Wood and Levitre, but that's not accurate. In fact, Dockery had been cut, meaning they needed a LG and the move of Walker to LT meant Brad Butler went from RG to RT. So they almost HAD to take interior OL high. Fast forward to the 2012 draft. Bell was gone and the team needed a LT, so they drafted Glenn and plugged him in. Glenn was the first OT the team had selected in the first 3 rounds since Fat Mike in 2002. 10 years without drafting an OT is absurd.

 

At least at the OL position, the Bills are consistently a step behind in stocking their talent. It makes for a more difficult transition and means QB's are running for their lives and/or having to get rid of the ball faster.

[thebandit27]

I wouldn't say it necessarily stands either. They did take some steps in the right direction...limitedly. And...with the higher draft choices...they were showing improvment. Instead of building on that, or at least staying at pace,.they went right back to their MO. .

To me, it even isn't so much that they didn't re-sign Levitre, though they certainly could have. Its that they did 0 to replace him.

 

Well, he's no longer here..and they didn't replace him.

 

 

They didn't do zero to replace him; they did zero that you are excited about. They brought in Legursky and Caldwell to compete with Brown; that's not doing zero. If you don't think those guys can do the job, that's fine, but saying they did nothing is incorrect.

 

It shouldn't. And I explained it in my previous post...as well as earlier in this post.

 

1) They actually did a good job of not letting people in cleanly;

2) The ball came out quickly;

3) Levitre didn't need help. That left Wood free to help Urbik and/or pick up a blitz.

 

When you remove the guy that doesn't need help from the equation, and replace him with someone that most likely will need help...things can, and usually do, change. If Wood is helping Legursky or Colin Brown, a blitzer comes in...or Urbik gets beat. OR a combination of the two. It can be a little more than..."ah, its only one guy."

 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you here. You seem to be boiling the entire effectiveness of the line down to Fitz and Levitre; that's cherry-picking if you ask me. I think the OL functions as a unit along with the QB and the scheme, and I'm willing to give the other guys a shot to fill in at LG.

 

I could go up to the casino tonight and win enough at craps to pay off my mortgage too, but it isn't all that likely. And if I was behind on my mortgage, I wouldn't tell my bank that was my plan.

 

You can wait if you want, I've seen the play a number of times.

 

We want to see what D Bell can do;

We like what we've seen from Kirk Chambers;

This Jamon Meredith was a pretty highly regarded prospect before he was cut;

That Terrance Pennington sure has some long arms, prototypical for an OT;

Boy, that Ed Wang as a cool name.

 

What's not fair is that every time they don't bother to replace someone, the same line gets used.

 

You'd think that when the line was last used, right after the draft, and they just brought in two more people to "compete", that ...people would catch on. Guess not.

 

Anyways. the only one I really have that much hope for is Caldwell, provided he's healthy again and is ready to compete.

 

I actually wanted the Bills to use a late round pick on Legursky and had hopes for him. But it may be the lack of height (a cocern coming out of Marshall), but he hasn't shown to be starting quality, at least not in pass protection. I don't know what would have changed since then.

 

 

 

We'll see. But I doubt it.

 

 

 

If it was actually true, they wouldn't be brining in guys like Legursky and Caldwell. Spare me the depth argument. They're looking for a starter.

 

And again, I've seen the play before, I don't need to wait. Feel free though, I won't spoil the ending.

 

First off, everyone you listed was an OT, almost universally considered a more critical position than guard, so we're not talking apples-to-apples comparison here. And I'd like to think that because this is a completely different front office, you wouldn't be lumping the failures of the past on these guys, but you are. Me personally, I'd rather look at what's happened since Whaley's been here, since that's the only fair comparison we have. The examples we have to look at that are comparisons are Urbik and Pears; you're uncomfortable with how those guys play, whereas I am not.

 

Feel free to assume you know the ending though, regardless of the false analogy you're making.

 

1) Jerry Reese doesn't have a single starter who was another teams cast off, much less 3. David Baas wasn't a cast off, he was a bona fide FA.

 

2) Almost all of his guys are from within..and he's pretty good at getting quality from mid round picks. But that's Jerry Reese. when was the last tiem the Bills got a quality starter from a mid round pick? Or a late round? There was Peters as a UFDA 9 years ago and there there was...um...well, Butler wasn't bad at guard for a year or two.

 

3) You actually have to pick guys in the mid rounds to be Jerry Reese. This year, after their best Olineman left..there were two pretty good prospects in the 4th. Schwenke from Cal. was the 2nd best center ranked, and could easily go to guard. Barrett Jones won the Outland Trophy and played 3 different positions. In a way, he's a bit of a Levitre clone. Smart, agile enough, very good at using angles, can get to the 2nd level.

 

We took another safety. I'm sorry, I've seen this play before.

 

4) Jerry Reese isn't afraid to retain talent and pay for it. Well before it became fashionable to say, "you don't pay a guard X millions of $$, he gave Chris Snee a 42 million contract. He's been making between 6.5 and 7 million since 2008. He doesn't buy into that mantra.

 

5) As David Diehl ages and Kevin Boothe remains lukewarm...he drafted Justin Pugh in the 1st as an eventual replacement. He already has James Brewer being groomed. He's not rummaging through NFL trash bins looking for starters.

 

1) Does "not a single starter" include Kevin Boothe, who was picked up on waivers from the Raiders in his second season and hit the open market twice without finding a new team? Also, if David Bass was a "bona fide FA" as you imply, why did he wait out 5 months of free agency to sign with the Giants in late July of 2007? That's not what marquee FAs do, so let's not pretend it was some big splash.

 

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/6807927/new-york-giants-agree-ex-san-francisco-49ers-center-david-baas

 

 

2) Almost all of every team's guys are from within; look around the league rosters and you'll see. As for mid-round picks that have panned out, how do you feel about Alex Carrington and DaNorris Searcy, who will both start this year? And you may want to take a look at Reese's mid-round picks for the last 4 years; there aren't as many gems as you are implying.

 

3) I'm sorry, but you're over-stating these two players. If Schwenke were a Levitre clone, how on earth did he last until pick 107? Ditto for Barret Jones, who went 6 picks later?

 

4) Reese has re-signed 2 offensive linemen to market-level contracts since he became GM: Snee and Beatty. He's let every other guy hit the open market; it's not as though he liberally re-ups every guy as you're implying.

 

5) Yes, they drafted offensive linemen in the past 2 seasons; here's an actual relevant point.

 

I could go on refuting points one at a time, but we've established our differences. I view the situation vastly different than you do, and am willing to wait and see. You, on the other hand, already know the outcome based on some false pretences.

 

Life goes on.

[CardinalScotts]

Pears is less than average, no left guard, average right guard, good left tackle. Once Wood goes down again this line will be a sieve.

what rating system are you using-

 

Pears is average when healthy at the least - Urbik is a solid guard with a little nasty to him - Wood is a good center - player in question - Cordy Glenn is a mauler

 

Hairston will be back, and Colin Brown or Legursky will be fine. Legursky is 27 and has played 50 NFL games he didn't forget how to do it.

[8-8 Forever?]

McKelvin's contract is actually $4.25 mil per year the original report of 4 years $20 million proved to be incorrect. I disagree that he couldn't have gotten a similar contract in the open market. Us fans tend to be more critical of our own players especially first round picks that don't develop into great players. In saying that I do believe winning teams keep players or sign players of McKelvin's skill set. He's not a bum, he's a nice player and these kind of players are necessary.

McKelvin will be fine this year. The blitz - oriented defense will help him a great deal as he just needs to play it tight for 3 seconds... the play will be over for better or worse in 3 seconds with this defense (and offense for that matter) ... this will be interesting

[BillsWatch]

I agree with this; I'll be very disappointed if Wood or Spiller are allowed to hit FA

 

Sometimes teams do not have a choice if player wants to leave. You can tag only 1 player.

[PromoTheRobot]

Considering there are 18 some unique positions on a football team, and you usually have only 2 high picks per draft (1 & 2), you aren't uncovering a mystery that some positions are"not taken care of with a high pick" as was put earlier.

 

PTR

Edited August 3, 2013 by PromoTheRobot

[BADOLBILZ]

I laughed hard when Murph said that Caldwell is a serious contender for the starting LG. Very embarrassing situation. Even if they strike gold with one of these street bums, just more evidence this is a rinky dink organization.

 

What's more is that Caldwell has been injury prone. This line has a lot of guys that miss a lot of football games with injuries.

[Fan in Chicago]

Considering there are 18 some unique positions on a football team, and you usually have only 2 high picks per draft (1 & 2), you aren't uncovering a mystery that some positions are"not taken care of with a high pick" as was put earlier.

 

PTR

And from a team building exercise, the problem is exacerbated when we fail to retain said top picks who do pan out instead of flaming out (which has happened entirely too often with the Bills).

[beerme1]

I agree with this; I'll be very disappointed if Wood or Spiller are allowed to hit FA

 

With those two guys that is the line in the sand. You must keep them and I am confident we will. Thanks in part to not having to pay Andy money.

[Marshmallow]

Just say no to anyone who spells Jeff G-E-O-F-F.

 

Either spelling is stupid. There's absolutely no reason to have the last F. Just ask Gregg, Scott, and Matt. No reason.