The Destruction of North Carolina

[Tiberius]

...what?

 

 

Edit: So the Democrats who you said were more or less conservatives might as well have been Republicans because they were conservative? Is this an attempt to place blame on Republicans and admonish the Democrats for screwing this state up? It's a brilliant idea, is it the new Democrat theme to blame someone else?

History lesson? After the Democrats became the party of Civil Rights the southern whites left for the Republican party. Duh!

[birdog1960]

Look Buddy, just be thankful NC isn't MS or AL if it totally went red.

Thank God there's still Virginia. Enlightenment happens slowly.

[DC Tom]

It's not the politics of the left that's annoyingly disgusting so much as their unholy elitism.

[boyst]

Since we are making sweeping generalizations...

 

As much as we slack the Mass Holes... They do have the highest rated schools in the country. Any coincidence the worst systems are the most conservative states. Same with New Jersey, New York, and California. Conservative farmers don't tend to handle education well. Now, mix in the perfect sh*tstorm of poverty.

 

NC is a deeply conservative state that some how stayed blue. No wonder it is so jazzed up.

You're going to get me to say something I would not like to say, but WTF do "Conservative Farmers" really have to do with education?

 

Do you want to sit down on a school and realize how valuable the Ag community is to the educational system of NC? It's not. But, we do anything we can to educate anyone we can find because Ag is very important for the future of humanity and the gullible folks like you loathe Monsanto, shop at the Holy Whole Foods, and use granola in your shampoo.

 

Get yourself an education first before you talk about the educational problems in NC. Maybe you could best do that by living here and knowing some residents, meeting some teachers and asking both of them what is really going on.

 

History lesson? After the Democrats became the party of Civil Rights the southern whites left for the Republican party. Duh!

I just want to make sure you feel like you get attention.

 

Thank God there's still Virginia. Enlightenment happens slowly.

Virginia will always have the benefit of DC. As long as they have DC they will top billing for almost anything. But, if you travel to West VA - Danville, or even Lynchburg you will see what real VA is like. It is not enlightenment it is just pathetic.

 

It is rather annoying that progressives like you think enlightenment means being a liberal and/or Democrat. It is annoying that Tom can take 3 seconds and read your post and see right thru it and mock you right in front of your face without you doing anything more then babbling. Your "enlightenment" is nothing but elitism. Your party does not want the rural folks of VA to be "enlightened." They just want their votes when they need them and they'll just as quickly turn around, walk back in their house in upstate VA and forget about the rest of the state.

 

It's not the politics of the left that's annoyingly disgusting so much as their unholy elitism.

It's just the politics of everything that are annoyingly disgusting.

[ExiledInIllinois]

History lesson? After the Democrats became the party of Civil Rights the southern whites left for the Republican party. Duh!

 

They didn't get the memo in NC.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

You're going to get me to say something I would not like to say, but WTF do "Conservative Farmers" really have to do with education?

 

Do you want to sit down on a school and realize how valuable the Ag community is to the educational system of NC? It's not. But, we do anything we can to educate anyone we can find because Ag is very important for the future of humanity and the gullible folks like you loathe Monsanto, shop at the Holy Whole Foods, and use granola in your shampoo.

 

Get yourself an education first before you talk about the educational problems in NC. Maybe you could best do that by living here and knowing some residents, meeting some teachers and asking both of them what is really going on.

 

Huh? I don't loathe Monsanto. I don't shop @ Whole Foods. Granola shampoo??... Obviously you haven't been following what I believe, do, and promote. When did I become a tree hugging liberal? I am liberal, yet anything but a smug tree hugger. Some of the biggest Ag states have a proud history in promoting education, like Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota... They tend to lean purple. I am sorry NC didn't get the memo.

 

Maybe the problem w/NC is all the Western New Yorkers moving there. ;-P ;-P

 

Honestly, I knew Ag was big in NC, but not that big like other states (Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Ohio, Wisconsin, etc..) I thought when it came to Ag, tobacco was king in NC. Sorry if I was wrong. But, if I am not... There's your problem.

 

 

 

Oh right... We are making sweeping generalizations... My bad.

 

Thank God there's still Virginia. Enlightenment happens slowly.

 

Yeah... Like MA, Virginia's old school...

[boyst]

Huh? I don't loathe Monsanto. I don't shop @ Whole Foods. Granola shampoo??... Obviously you haven't been following what I believe, do, and promote. When did I become a tree hugging liberal? I am liberal, yet anything but a smug tree hugger. Some of the biggest Ag states have a proud history in promoting education, like Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota... They tend to lean purple. I am sorry NC didn't get the memo.

 

Maybe the problem w/NC is all the Western New Yorkers moving there. ;-P ;-P

 

Honestly, I knew Ag was big in NC, but not that big like other states (Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Ohio, Wisconsin, etc..) I thought when it came to Ag, tobacco was king in NC. Sorry if I was wrong. But, if I am not... There's your problem.

 

 

 

Oh right... We are making sweeping generalizations... My bad.

 

 

 

Yeah... Like MA, Virginia's old school...

these generalizations are growing hilarious. Its fun as hell.

 

Anyway back to being serious. About Wisconsin, Iowa, and Indiana. Those states are generally as conservative as NC. They have more more fluxation in Rep/Dem where NC has almost all been Den. So much so it was and is unhealthy.

[birdog1960]

You're going to get me to say something I would not like to say, but WTF do "Conservative Farmers" really have to do with education?

 

Do you want to sit down on a school and realize how valuable the Ag community is to the educational system of NC? It's not. But, we do anything we can to educate anyone we can find because Ag is very important for the future of humanity and the gullible folks like you loathe Monsanto, shop at the Holy Whole Foods, and use granola in your shampoo.

 

Get yourself an education first before you talk about the educational problems in NC. Maybe you could best do that by living here and knowing some residents, meeting some teachers and asking both of them what is really going on.

 

 

 

 

 

Virginia will always have the benefit of DC. As long as they have DC they will top billing for almost anything. But, if you travel to West VA - Danville, or even Lynchburg you will see what real VA is like. It is not enlightenment it is just pathetic.

 

It is rather annoying that progressives like you think enlightenment means being a liberal and/or Democrat. It is annoying that Tom can take 3 seconds and read your post and see right thru it and mock you right in front of your face without you doing anything more then babbling. Your "enlightenment" is nothing but elitism. Your party does not want the rural folks of VA to be "enlightened." They just want their votes when they need them and they'll just as quickly turn around, walk back in their house in upstate VA and forget about the rest of the state.

 

i have talked to some nc teachers and also some very senior higher education leaders. most agree that nc is the proxy battleground for the national attack campaign on public education being orchestrated by uber conservative think tanks... you know the ones. in nc, they're winning because the pols there are beholden and are helping them win. much less likely to happen in Virginia as this is a solidly purple state with a dem governor and a long history of respect for education (and yes, many of the progressive districts are in n Virginia - so what?). that's enlightened in my book. if valuing education very highly is elitist, then i proudly confess to being one.

 

i don't live in n Virginia. i live in rural Virginia. and I see the myriad cultural and socioeconomic problems on a daily basis. i think we can do better. much better. that's why i generally support progressive social policies.

[3rdnlng]

i have talked to some nc teachers and also some very senior higher education leaders. most agree that nc is the proxy battleground for the national attack campaign on public education being orchestrated by uber conservative think tanks... you know the ones. in nc, they're winning because the pols there are beholden and are helping them win. much less likely to happen in Virginia as this is a solidly purple state with a dem governor and a long history of respect for education (and yes, many of the progressive districts are in n Virginia - so what?). that's enlightened in my book. if valuing education very highly is elitist, then i proudly confess to being one.

 

i don't live in n Virginia. i live in rural Virginia. and I see the myriad cultural and socioeconomic problems on a daily basis. i think we can do better. much better. that's why i generally support progressive social policies.

 

It would appear that Progressives value spending throwing money at education and appeasing a large segment (teachers) of their own rather than actually fixing the problems, i.e tenure, political correctness and liberalism. Yes, liberalism is being taught in the schools. If Progressives really cared they would care enough to want to know why charter schools were outperforming public education, rather than wanting to shut them down.

[boyst]

i have talked to some nc teachers and also some very senior higher education leaders. most agree that nc is the proxy battleground for the national attack campaign on public education being orchestrated by uber conservative think tanks... you know the ones. in nc, they're winning because the pols there are beholden and are helping them win. much less likely to happen in Virginia as this is a solidly purple state with a dem governor and a long history of respect for education (and yes, many of the progressive districts are in n Virginia - so what?). that's enlightened in my book. if valuing education very highly is elitist, then i proudly confess to being one.

 

i don't live in n Virginia. i live in rural Virginia. and I see the myriad cultural and socioeconomic problems on a daily basis. i think we can do better. much better. that's why i generally support progressive social policies.

enlightenment is not Democrat or Republican. Much to the sadness of label friendly folks like yourself who need such labels to cast blame for shortcomings and misdoings and to take the eye off the prize of the best answer to any solution.

 

That is simple. The answer is simple. Do what is best for the students to learn. And while NC public education may be a joke they fair quite well on national rankings. If NC wants to do what is best for the students they'll look at which schools perform the best and emulate those across the state.

 

Being blue, red, purple or green makes no difference with education.

[birdog1960]

enlightenment is not Democrat or Republican. Much to the sadness of label friendly folks like yourself who need such labels to cast blame for shortcomings and misdoings and to take the eye off the prize of the best answer to any solution.

 

That is simple. The answer is simple. Do what is best for the students to learn. And while NC public education may be a joke they fair quite well on national rankings. If NC wants to do what is best for the students they'll look at which schools perform the best and emulate those across the state.

 

Being blue, red, purple or green makes no difference with education.

except that it is a red, blue and purple thing. look at this study on a measure of science and technology readiness: http://www.huffingto...-_n_894528.html. 9 of the top 10 states were blue states in the last presidential election. 8 out of 10 of the bottom states were red states. genetics? are dems generally inherently smarter? or might this have to do with red state policies on education. nc was 37th here. that was before the attacks on teachers got going full bore. Edited April 21, 2014 by birdog1960

[boyst]

except that it is a red, blue and purple thing. look at this study on a measure of science and technology readiness: http://www.huffingto...-_n_894528.html. 9 of the top 10 states were blue states in the last presidential election. 8 out of 10 of the bottom states were red states. genetics? are dems generally inherently smarter? or might this have to do with red state policies on education. nc was 37th here. that was before the attacks on teachers got going full bore.

why just look at one election? Because at that time NC had been Democrat in the legislature and Governors office for over 12 years straight.

 

Your schtick is weak. There are brilliant Democrats and brilliant Republicans. Neither one of us are brilliant - I can tell. Brilliant people do not get in to these types of debates about politics.

[birdog1960]

why just look at one election? Because at that time NC had been Democrat in the legislature and Governors office for over 12 years straight.

 

Your schtick is weak. There are brilliant Democrats and brilliant Republicans. Neither one of us are brilliant - I can tell. Brilliant people do not get in to these types of debates about politics.

look at other elections then. 8 of the top 10 are perennially blues in national elections with virginia being purple for some time now. 8 of the bottom 10 are perennially red states. this isn't explainable by chance.

[boyst]

look at other elections then. 8 of the top 10 are perennially blues in national elections with virginia being purple for some time now. 8 of the bottom 10 are perennially red states. this isn't explainable by chance.

oOoOoOK

 

But that means huh? Hint: how does that relate to our stage education system

[birdog1960]

oOoOoOK

 

But that means huh? Hint: how does that relate to our stage education system

there are several different possibilities. none of them put those red states in a good light. i mentioned a few above. in addition, perhaps parents that have a choice, choose not to live in the worst education states which would lead to businesses not wanting to expand there, which would lead to unemployment and poverty. in any case, the answer to the problem is a vibrant, high priority educational system and these laggard red states accomplish just the opposite. and nc seems to want to follow their lead and push into the bottom 10.. if you were going to relocate or start a new business somewhere, would the blue states at the top or the red states at the bottom have priority? you can bet that i'd be looking at the top states again.

 

we should also be cognizant of the fact that even the top states don't match the scores of many other countries. in absolute terms, the entire us educational system is pretty unimpressive. as in health care we have this delusion of superiority. so what do the more successful countries do? are they gutting public education?

Edited April 22, 2014 by birdog1960

[3rdnlng]

there are several different possibilities. none of them put those red states in a good light. i mentioned a few above. in addition, perhaps parents that have a choice, choose not to live in the worst education states which would lead to businesses not wanting to expand there, which would lead to unemployment and poverty. in any case, the answer to the problem is a vibrant, high priority educational system and these laggard red states accomplish just the opposite. and nc seems to want to follow their lead and push into the bottom 10.. if you were going to relocate or start a new business somewhere, would the blue states at the top or the red states at the bottom have priority? you can bet that i'd be looking at the top states again.

 

we should also be cognizant of the fact that even the top states don't match the scores of many other countries. in absolute terms, the entire us educational system is pretty unimpressive. as in health care we have this delusion of superiority. so what do the more successful countries do? are they gutting public education?

 

So, could charter schools (or at least their approach) be the answer?

Edited April 22, 2014 by 3rdnlng

[OCinBuffalo]

uhhh, how has a power that has barely had any power in this state succeeded to destroy the public education system?

The real history that you've described, and the fact that it took decades of Democratic control to destroy public education in NC doesn't matter to the left, because history doesn't matter to the left in general. This is how you end up with a guy wearing a Che Guevera t-shirt, and yelling about torture, at the same time.

 

The history, if known, precludes anyone who isn't trolling, and actually cares about torture, from ever wearing the t-shirt. The ignorance of history thus creates the hilarious irony of such a thing. Ignorance: the tool the left relies on. Thus, why should the left concern themselves with educational outcomes, when there are education consitutents to support?

...what?

 

 

Edit: So the Democrats who you said were more or less conservatives might as well have been Republicans because they were conservative? Is this an attempt to place blame on Republicans and admonish the Democrats for screwing this state up? It's a brilliant idea, is it the new Democrat theme to blame someone else?

Of course it is. The problem? I'm not sure how you admonish one group and then blame the other. What you've written here says that you are essentially blaming both, you unmitigated moron.

 

Anyway, of course the Democrat's theme is to blame others no matter what happens: when they win, they blame the Republicans, when they lose, they blame the Republicans. This way, the overriding theme is always the same: blame the Republicans. As I've said: since Bill Clinton, the Democratic party and the facts have parted ways. In fact, some of their internal polling shows that they cannot win most of the political issues of the day. Hence the lies.

 

This is why, in the midst of economic peril that should have been their ONLY focuse, the Democrats went health care. They knew that their majority in the House was going to be short-lived, and they had to force through their agenda when they had to opportunity.

 

And of course, it is the Republicans fault that they can't win political arguments with the majority of Americans.

Since we are making sweeping generalizations...

 

As much as we slack the Mass Holes... They do have the highest rated schools in the country. Any coincidence the worst systems are the most conservative states. Same with New Jersey, New York, and California. Conservative farmers don't tend to handle education well. Now, mix in the perfect sh*tstorm of poverty.

 

NC is a deeply conservative state that some how stayed blue. No wonder it is so jazzed up.

Massachusetts also voted for Scott Brown, specifically for the purposes of blocking Obamacare.

 

So, rather than your sweeping generalization, and based on my boatloads of time spent there recently, it's clear that there are a lot of forces at work in Mass. that aren't concerned with lock-step following of the far-left agenda. Warren got elected largely because electing Scott Brown was such an embarrassment for the far-left in that state, and the centrists sorta wanted to make it up to them/her.

 

Thus, this is a thinking state, and in a thinking state, is it really that much of leap to assume they wouldn't let education slip? No. They have their unions in check in Mass. Albeit via Boston "strongman" tactics, but still, they have them in check.

 

If you have heard any of the things coming out of Cuomo's mouth recently about NY education? It appears more than a few NYS Democrats, in fact the majority, want the same control over the teacher's union that Mass has.

i have talked to some nc teachers and also some very senior higher education leaders. most agree that nc is the proxy battleground for the national attack campaign on public education being orchestrated by uber conservative think tanks... you know the ones. in nc, they're winning because the pols there are beholden and are helping them win. much less likely to happen in Virginia as this is a solidly purple state with a dem governor and a long history of respect for education (and yes, many of the progressive districts are in n Virginia - so what?). that's enlightened in my book. if valuing education very highly is elitist, then i proudly confess to being one.

 

i don't live in n Virginia. i live in rural Virginia. and I see the myriad cultural and socioeconomic problems on a daily basis. i think we can do better. much better. that's why i generally support progressive social policies.

If the education system was a multinational corporation? It would have been run out of business, or more likely raided, years ago. But in a way, that is what is happening: the stockholders are revolting. They want control of their company back from the "board members" and "executives" who are paying themselves bonuses while running the company into the ground. If the stockholders can't get that? They'd rather take their chances with the raiders, who are promising them a much better return on their stock, via: charter schools, tutoring, and corporate sponsorship. But, it's still a public system.

 

Therefore, it's tiresome when leftists assclowns characterize reform as an "attack on public education". Wrong. What's happening is an attack on public sector union/Democratic party control of public education, including the setting up of the perpetual motion machine that is campaign finance-->"more $ for schools" -->campaign finance.

 

Propagating the growth of the machine, or at least maintaining it, is the goal, not educational outcomes. This would be no big deal by itself, since no bad news on education helps to secure/maintain the machine. If the unions had good outcomes, nobody would dare argue take them on, because: "the children".

 

However, the other outcomes of "progressive policies" specifically the encouragement of government dependence, the loss of self-respect via state-sponsored, removal of consequences for the loss of self-control, and the notion that the state is responsible for children("it takes a village" ), and not their parents? This gives ALL parents, rich, middle and poor a pass, and is the DIRECT cause of the epdemic of bad parenting.

 

When you combine the machine with bad parenting, then the whole becomes a much larger implement of douchebaggery than the parts. Largely because it makes the teacher's union appear to be right: bad parents are the cause. Teacher's can't do much with a kid who has lice/bed bugs/smelly clothes/hasn't eaten all weekend and thus purposely misbehaves, so that they are sent to summer school. Thus ensuring themselves 3 square meals all summer; and so the indoctrination/institutionalisation begins. But, this is also screwing up the machine.

 

Teacher's cannot do much with these kids, and no thinking person doesn't understand why. And, there are many teachers who, against the counsel of their peers/union, do in fact spend their own $ on these kids. But, no one should confuse the charity of some teachers with the justification for the awful system that they are a part of, and have little choice other than to support.

 

The good news? The "progressive policies" we've been enduring for the last 40 years are actually at odds with each other. As I said: they are screwing up the machine. You can't control education, and keep failing. 4 decades of that, and "progressive policies" are the reason that the teacher's union/Democratic party is losing control of the machine.

 

So, birdog, by all means, let's have even more "progressive policies" and let's drive this thing into the rocks at flank speed. This way no one will ever forget what was responsible, this dies here, and we don't have 4 more decades of lost children.

 

But, Obama has already taken care of that, in foreign policy, economics, and elsewhere hasn't he? We've seen Obamacare, The Liberal Cleaver in action.

 

So, you've gotten your wish, but more importantly, so have I.

[birdog1960]

The real history that you've described, and the fact that it took decades of Democratic control to destroy public education in NC doesn't matter to the left, because history doesn't matter to the left in general. This is how you end up with a guy wearing a Che Guevera t-shirt, and yelling about torture, at the same time.

 

The history, if known, precludes anyone who isn't trolling, and actually cares about torture, from ever wearing the t-shirt. The ignorance of history thus creates the hilarious irony of such a thing. Ignorance: the tool the left relies on. Thus, why should the left concern themselves with educational outcomes, when there are education consitutents to support?

 

Of course it is. The problem? I'm not sure how you admonish one group and then blame the other. What you've written here says that you are essentially blaming both, you unmitigated moron.

 

Anyway, of course the Democrat's theme is to blame others no matter what happens: when they win, they blame the Republicans, when they lose, they blame the Republicans. This way, the overriding theme is always the same: blame the Republicans. As I've said: since Bill Clinton, the Democratic party and the facts have parted ways. In fact, some of their internal polling shows that they cannot win most of the political issues of the day. Hence the lies.

 

This is why, in the midst of economic peril that should have been their ONLY focuse, the Democrats went health care. They knew that their majority in the House was going to be short-lived, and they had to force through their agenda when they had to opportunity.

 

And of course, it is the Republicans fault that they can't win political arguments with the majority of Americans.

 

Massachusetts also voted for Scott Brown, specifically for the purposes of blocking Obamacare.

 

So, rather than your sweeping generalization, and based on my boatloads of time spent there recently, it's clear that there are a lot of forces at work in Mass. that aren't concerned with lock-step following of the far-left agenda. Warren got elected largely because electing Scott Brown was such an embarrassment for the far-left in that state, and the centrists sorta wanted to make it up to them/her.

 

Thus, this is a thinking state, and in a thinking state, is it really that much of leap to assume they wouldn't let education slip? No. They have their unions in check in Mass. Albeit via Boston "strongman" tactics, but still, they have them in check.

 

If you have heard any of the things coming out of Cuomo's mouth recently about NY education? It appears more than a few NYS Democrats, in fact the majority, want the same control over the teacher's union that Mass has.

 

If the education system was a multinational corporation? It would have been run out of business, or more likely raided, years ago. But in a way, that is what is happening: the stockholders are revolting. They want control of their company back from the "board members" and "executives" who are paying themselves bonuses while running the company into the ground. If the stockholders can't get that? They'd rather take their chances with the raiders, who are promising them a much better return on their stock, via: charter schools, tutoring, and corporate sponsorship. But, it's still a public system.

 

Therefore, it's tiresome when leftists assclowns characterize reform as an "attack on public education". Wrong. What's happening is an attack on public sector union/Democratic party control of public education, including the setting up of the perpetual motion machine that is campaign finance-->"more $ for schools" -->campaign finance.

 

Propagating the growth of the machine, or at least maintaining it, is the goal, not educational outcomes. This would be no big deal by itself, since no bad news on education helps to secure/maintain the machine. If the unions had good outcomes, nobody would dare argue take them on, because: "the children".

 

However, the other outcomes of "progressive policies" specifically the encouragement of government dependence, the loss of self-respect via state-sponsored, removal of consequences for the loss of self-control, and the notion that the state is responsible for children("it takes a village" ), and not their parents? This gives ALL parents, rich, middle and poor a pass, and is the DIRECT cause of the epdemic of bad parenting.

 

When you combine the machine with bad parenting, then the whole becomes a much larger implement of douchebaggery than the parts. Largely because it makes the teacher's union appear to be right: bad parents are the cause. Teacher's can't do much with a kid who has lice/bed bugs/smelly clothes/hasn't eaten all weekend and thus purposely misbehaves, so that they are sent to summer school. Thus ensuring themselves 3 square meals all summer; and so the indoctrination/institutionalisation begins. But, this is also screwing up the machine.

 

Teacher's cannot do much with these kids, and no thinking person doesn't understand why. And, there are many teachers who, against the counsel of their peers/union, do in fact spend their own $ on these kids. But, no one should confuse the charity of some teachers with the justification for the awful system that they are a part of, and have little choice other than to support.

 

The good news? The "progressive policies" we've been enduring for the last 40 years are actually at odds with each other. As I said: they are screwing up the machine. You can't control education, and keep failing. 4 decades of that, and "progressive policies" are the reason that the teacher's union/Democratic party is losing control of the machine.

 

So, birdog, by all means, let's have even more "progressive policies" and let's drive this thing into the rocks at flank speed. This way no one will ever forget what was responsible, this dies here, and we don't have 4 more decades of lost children.

 

But, Obama has already taken care of that, in foreign policy, economics, and elsewhere hasn't he? We've seen Obamacare, The Liberal Cleaver in action.

 

So, you've gotten your wish, but more importantly, so have I.

so if bad outcomes are a direct result of demorat policies, explain why so many blue states are at the top of the pile and so many red states are at the bottom.

 

read here how the world's top ranked educational system values teachers: http://www.whichcountry.co/which-country-has-best-education-system-in-the-world/

Edited April 22, 2014 by birdog1960

[birdog1960]

So, could charter schools (or at least their approach) be the answer?

the data is less than convincing as to superiority of outcomes vis a vis chater schools. if they're proven to be more effective then they should be considered. but why not first consider international models that have clearly superior outcomes?

[3rdnlng]

the data is less than convincing as to superiority of outcomes vis a vis chater schools. if they're proven to be more effective then they should be considered. but why not first consider international models that have clearly superior outcomes?

 

What data is less than convincing?