The Matrix

[Clippers of Nfl]

Go for it...seriously, I'd really like to hear anyone's take on the 2nd and 3rd films.

Me too.

 

As for me I had a pretty good idea what the movies were about at the time. But now I plainly forgot.

 

At the end of part 3 because of some truce Neo did with the machine god, the city was saved. See I remember that. Then there are parts that without googling or watching the movie again, I just dont get/remember. Like the indian girl at the train station. The dad is talking about her daughter likes she's a computer program and she cant enter here or there and must use other programs to hider her or something like that.

 

Which brings me to the next question. Who is stronger? The architect, the machine god, or is it the same person?

 

Ps. I might be sounding like the dumbest person alive. I'm going on memory alone and I fell asleep watching part 2 or 3 a few weeks ago. But that's it.

 

Remember it very clearly. This where they start talking about old copies of the program and characters (programs) surviving from it. Most of the 2nd and 3rd Matrix except for Xion is alternate environments from previous versions. Can not figure out the whole Neno blind thing.

The blind thing was an explosion or attack. It happened while fighting a bad guy on one of the ships.

He was blind yet could still see. Haha.

[26CornerBlitz]

This. The original Matrix is one of my favorite films of all time. The others were cash grabs that require people who fancy themselves as smarter than everyone else to come up with convoluted, often times absurd explanations as to why they were brilliant and above everyone else's head.

 

You called it perfectly. The initial Matrix was a great film. Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions were both very bad films that were underwhelming to say the least.

[ajzepp]

You called it perfectly. The initial Matrix was a great film. Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions were both very bad films that were underwhelming to say the least.

 

It's really held up well, too...I can't believe it came out 14 years ago!! That's really amazing to me. But all three were on a couple months ago and I enjoyed the first one just as much as ever. Honestly feels like it's still brand new to me.

 

Ps. I might be sounding like the dumbest person alive. I'm going on memory alone and I fell asleep watching part 2 or 3 a few weeks ago. But that's it.

 

 

 

Might be best to just leave it that way lol

[Rubes]

Matrix parts 2 and 3 are, for me, on par with Star Wars Episodes I-III. Horrifically bad sequels that took great, simple, classic storylines and made them so !@#$ing convoluted and confusing that nobody could tell anymore what the hell was happening or why.

 

That, combined with absolutely **** dialogue. Those scenes in Matrix 2 and 3 that take place in Zion, especially with the Kid, are so god awful they make me want to violently retch.

 

The worst part is, anytime I'm surfing channels and I see one of those on, I have to watch. Yeah, I have that much self loathing.

[ajzepp]

Matrix parts 2 and 3 are, for me, on par with Star Wars Episodes I-III.

 

arrrrrgh....c'mon Rubes!!

[section122]

Alright my apologies being so late with this. I am doing this off of memory as requested so it may not be as complete as it could be. My memory isn't quite what it used to be.

 

As I said in my earlier post the movies were purposefully left without explanation as the Wachoski's wanted each person to take and make their own inferences about what they thought the movies represented. I personally feel they are a question about fatalism and determinism with some amazing choregraphy.

 

Here goes:

 

In the first movie there is an internal struggle for Neo. Is he the one isn't he the one. When he visits the oracle she tells him that he isn't the one - at least in this lifetime. That is important to remember for later. As he begins to learn and gain the ability to manipulate the Matrix he begins to believe. Believing is a major storyline/plot point throughout the trilogy. The oracle also told Morpheus that he would find the one and that the one would be able to topple the Matrix. She also told Trinity that she would fall in love with a man and he would be the one. As both begin to believe in Neo, he in turn begins to believe in himself. All the while the prophecies are driving all of them to make choices. Again something important to remember for the 2nd and 3rd movies. At the end of the movie he runs from the agents because he doesn't quite believe in himself and having the ability to conquer the "unbeatable agents." When he gets shot and dies in the Matrix he should die in real life. However this is where he differs from a normal human being for the first time. He doesn't die and is brought back to life by Trinity's speech and then true love's kiss. She feels that since she loves him he must be the one. Since the Matrix is pretty much a dream state he is not actually dead and awakens. This makes the oracle's prediction of not in this lifetime come true. The agents have not seen it before and are just as shocked. He see the world in the code of the matrix much like sitting in the Nebuchadnezzer (butchered that spelling but hey this is from memory). He is the only one to see this as none of the others have mentioned that being the case for them. He then jumps into Agent Smith's body "destroying" him. The other agents flee and all seems right in the world. At the very very end of the movie after he hangs up the phone he flies away.

 

Some people view this as him being a spiritual figure and these movies tying to religion and I can see that. Others view it as man vs machine and I can see that. The fatalism/determinism is just my personal thoughts and hopefully I can convey them here.

 

Movie 2 and 3 won't have as much detail as I watched the first literally at least a 100 times. 2 and 3 not so much so I am going to blend the 2 and may get timelines confused. Bear with me as I did watch them many time so here goes:

 

Movie 2 is when Neo really comes into his own. He learns and masters the Matrix and is an unstoppable force. Smith however has figured out how to make copies of himself and has begun infecting the Matrix. In the first movie Agents can invade any person's body but in this one he clones himself. This is done as the Matrix makes attempts to balance itself out. Since it is a computer program think of it as Neo and and Agent Smith as Viruses. The machines have begun to dig towards Zion so there is a concern among non-believers that the humans will soon be wiped out. Neo meets with the Oracle to decide his course of action and she has had to change bodies as helping the humans makes things unsafe for her. She (I believe) tells him about a key maker being held by the Merovingian. The merovingian who is an old program (we don't yet understand what this means) goes on a ramble about cauaslity. Reminding all of the people about what there actions will lead to. as he underestimates Neo and his abilities he does not expect the Humans to be able to win the war against the machines. His wife interjects as she can see the love between Trinity and Neo is real and that they are willing to die for each other. Speaking about causality to them means nothing and love is an emotion the Merovingian does not understand. She leads them to the key maker and he explains the backdoors in the matrix. He speaks about every program and person having a reason for existing (fatalism if you will). His is to get the key to the one. The highway scene that ensues is worth the price of admission for the second movie imo. As expected they are succesful and hatch their plan to get inside the Matrix mainframe. They are succesful in doing so and Neo meets with the Architect. He is an interesting and admittedly confusing character. He is the father of the Matrix. The master programmer if you will. It is here that he explains Neo is not the first and in his opinion not the last "one" and that the one is an error in the code. The machines tried a utopian society that was rejected by the humans. The machines then figured they would have to mirror society as closely as possible and set about doing so. The one and the matrix have been destroyed in the past and the architect feels it will happen again. He tells Neo that he can save the world or save Trinity and that the one always chooses wrong because of love. He is an emotionless program that doesn't understand human feelings which is why he continually struggles to create a perfect program. Trinity does die but Neo pulls the bullet out of her body and saves her (If you want the Jesus/religion angle this is his Lazarus moment) Agent Smith crosses over in the real world after invading a body right before they come out of the Matrix. At the end of the movie Neo is able to use his powers from the Matrix in the real world however it knocks him unconcious and places him in the train station. So both competing/balancing programs have crossed over to the real world.

 

The train station is a port between worlds. It is how programs are uploaded to the Matrix and the little girl in the train station is a character that we will see again in the end. She is a program with feeling and emotion and takes a liking to Neo who has been trapped there as he uploaded to the Matrix without being Jacked in. This is where Neo is left in limbo and Agent Smith begins to take over the entire Matrix. The machines are continuing to drill to Zion and are getting closer and closer to what will be a massacre. Neo is saved when trinity and the group attacks the Merovingian. Again the power of love (love conquers all is another way to view these movies but I digress) proves to the Merovingians wife and he that they are willing to die and kill everyone on the way to save him. The belief is so strong in Neo that many people throughout all three movies are willing to do crazy things because "they believe" (again faith/religion). They eventually free him and he takes time to plot his next move. He decides to go to the machine city which is viewed as crazy by the non-belivers. He takes Trinity with him and Agent Smith sneaks on the ship. Smith takes over the oracle and talks about how she must have known he would be coming and that if she was there she must know what he plans to do. (he is correct but I'll save that). The other ship heads back to Zion to fight the good fight because whats her name (sorry memory lol) believes in Neo and believes in herself to navigate the sewer lines to get back in time to help. Agent Smith sabotages the ship and gets into a fight with Neo blinding him in the process. However Neo's belief in himself and his destiny is so strong his powers work in the real world. He is able to defeat Smith and continue on to the Machine city where he "feels" the attacks coming at them. He meets with the Deus ex-machina and explains that Smith has effectively destroyed the Matrix and he will defeat him if they stop attacking Zion. The machine agrees as the Matrix is a lost cause at this point. Neo is the only hope now for the humans and the machines. If the Matrix crashes they will lose all their field which are their power source and suffer great loss. Smith will effectively destroy the matrix, humans, and machines. Deus ex Machina agrees to Neos terms and plugs him back into the Matrix. He fights with Smith in an epic fight scene continuing to get up again and again because human will won't allow him to stay down then Neo realizes what he must do. By allowing Smith to take him over he disrupts the balance in the code. This destroys Smith as his counterbalance has been destroyed. His yin to Smith's yang disrupts the program and Smith effectively destroys himself. The Matrix reboots itself much like any computer program that crashes.

 

All of this was typed for the very end. The oracle and the architect meet and have a conversation. Humans will be free to leave the Matrix if they choose (which has been discussed in the first movies that some people will chooose to stay even though they know it isn't reality). The architect mentions that the Oracle played a dangerous game and asked if she always knew the outcome. She says no but that she believed. To me the Oracle led the humans down a path that if succesful would end the war. Which is why there were several editions of the Matrix as she kept trying to end the war. Did all of the people do the things they did because it was their destiny (fatalism) or did they do them because they decided to (determinism). That answer is up to the viewer to decide.

 

Close second to me is Neo as a savior (Jesus) and the story being about faith and what it can help you accomplish. Sometimes faith is the strongest thing in the world and can conquer everything. Or love conquers all as I previously stated. Take your pick. I just spent way to long typing to leave it as you decide but that is how I started my post and how I will end. I hope I just gave you some ideas to chew on. If you really are interested there are many websites dedicated to the discussion and can help you formulate your own opinion.

 

The original movie is perfection to me. One of the best movies I have ever seen. I think it being so great is what leads people to discount 2 and 3. They are good movies just not the perfection that 1 was. Also there is the animatrix if you really want to dive deep into the world and they are very interesting on their own.

[section122]

Told you nobody wanted to be bored by me! ;-)

[ajzepp]

I'm gonna read it, I promise lol. I just have a tendency to not read something that someone put a lot of effort into until I'm in the right frame of mind to not rush through it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I promise I'll offer some feedback on it no later than tomorrow night.

[Mark Vader]

Told you nobody wanted to be bored by me! ;-)

 

I read your post a couple of days ago. I just did not reply to it right away.

 

Interesting analysis. I did not go ga-ga over the first Matrix movie as many others did, but I thought it was very entertaining and I enjoyed it.

 

Since I was a big fan of "Dark City", I felt that "The Matrix" was more of a clone of that movie, but with a bigger budget, elaborate special effects, martial arts action, and the "cool" factor. So I had a bit of a resentment to it's popularity, because I saw "Dark City" as a superior film.

 

Nevertheless, I did enjoy the first movie and I found the sequels to be entertaining but a bit underwhelming. I must say that your analysis is very good and your description makes the entire series sound better than I remember it.

[section122]

 

 

I read your post a couple of days ago. I just did not reply to it right away.

 

Interesting analysis. I did not go ga-ga over the first Matrix movie as many others did, but I thought it was very entertaining and I enjoyed it.

 

Since I was a big fan of "Dark City", I felt that "The Matrix" was more of a clone of that movie, but with a bigger budget, elaborate special effects, martial arts action, and the "cool" factor. So I had a bit of a resentment to it's popularity, because I saw "Dark City" as a superior film.

 

Nevertheless, I did enjoy the first movie and I found the sequels to be entertaining but a bit underwhelming. I must say that your analysis is very good and your description makes the entire series sound better than I remember it.

Ill have to check out Dark City as I've never seen it before but I loved the Matrix world. If you are interested the animatrix and even the video games added to the world. I devoured it all and own the 10 disc box set. Most of it should be available on YouTube.

 

My analysis ended up being way longer than I expected but hey it's about 8 hours worth of movies in there!

 

I just think the series was such an interesting concept and hate the hate 2 and 3 get simply bc 1 was such a masterpiece. The time between the movies didn't help either IMO. It's like having an album by a band that you love and listen to all the time. If there is a significant amount of time before the next album comes out many fans struggle to embrace it as it isn't the music they associate with the band.

 

Either way I look forward to more feedback on my summary (and thanks for yours!)

[Just Jack]

Told you nobody wanted to be bored by me! ;-)

 

I read it, but I'd have to watch the movies again to remember a lot of what you covered.

[Mark Vader]

Ill have to check out Dark City as I've never seen it before but I loved the Matrix world. If you are interested the animatrix and even the video games added to the world. I devoured it all and own the 10 disc box set. Most of it should be available on YouTube.

 

My analysis ended up being way longer than I expected but hey it's about 8 hours worth of movies in there!

 

I just think the series was such an interesting concept and hate the hate 2 and 3 get simply bc 1 was such a masterpiece. The time between the movies didn't help either IMO. It's like having an album by a band that you love and listen to all the time. If there is a significant amount of time before the next album comes out many fans struggle to embrace it as it isn't the music they associate with the band.

 

Either way I look forward to more feedback on my summary (and thanks for yours!)

Releasing the 2nd and 3rd films only 6 months apart from each other was a big mistake by Warner Bros.

 

There was not enough time for audiences to build up a hunger for the 3rd movie. Couple that with the lukewarm reception the second movie had and it just made things worse. If I remember correctly, "Elf" had bigger box office numbers than "The Matrix Revolutions".

 

You may be right about the deeper story line the Wachowski siblings brought to the sequels were probably a turn off to most fans who were only interested in the great special effects and the stylistic camera shots.

 

As for my "Dark City" comparison, I probably should not refer to "The Matrix" as a clone of it, but I see many similarities. "Dark City" is more stylish, and has that "Metropolis" feel to it. I've told many people before that if you want to know where "The Matrix" came from, watch "Dark City". I hope you enjoy it.

[ajzepp]

section122, Amazon has the Dark City bluray for ten bucks and the bonus features look to be fantastic. I believe I saw there is also a DTS-ES soundtrack if you're into that at all (I love DTS)

[Rubes]

arrrrrgh....c'mon Rubes!!

 

I can't tell if you think that's unfair to the Matrix trilogy or the Star Wars movies.

[Rubes]

In the first movie there is an internal struggle for Neo. Is he the one isn't he the one. When he visits the oracle she tells him that he isn't the one - at least in this lifetime. That is important to remember for later. As he begins to learn and gain the ability to manipulate the Matrix he begins to believe. Believing is a major storyline/plot point throughout the trilogy. The oracle also told Morpheus that he would find the one and that the one would be able to topple the Matrix. She also told Trinity that she would fall in love with a man and he would be the one. As both begin to believe in Neo, he in turn begins to believe in himself. All the while the prophecies are driving all of them to make choices. Again something important to remember for the 2nd and 3rd movies. At the end of the movie he runs from the agents because he doesn't quite believe in himself and having the ability to conquer the "unbeatable agents." When he gets shot and dies in the Matrix he should die in real life. However this is where he differs from a normal human being for the first time. He doesn't die and is brought back to life by Trinity's speech and then true love's kiss. She feels that since she loves him he must be the one. Since the Matrix is pretty much a dream state he is not actually dead and awakens. This makes the oracle's prediction of not in this lifetime come true.

 

I don't think I had quite as deep an interpretation of this as you. Basically, the transcripted conversation went like this:

 

Oracle: You know what that means? It's Latin. Means `Know thyself'. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Being the One is just like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it. Through and through. Balls to bones. Well, I better have a look at you. Open your mouth, say ahh.

Neo: Ahhh.

Oracle: Okay. Now I'm supposed to say, 'Mmm, that's interesting, but -', then you say -

Neo: But what?

Oracle: But you already know what I'm going to tell you.

Neo: I'm not the One.

Oracle: Sorry kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.

Neo: What?

Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows?

 

 

I don't know where the next life "prediction" comes in, but I see this really as simple as the issue with the Latin quotation. Like Morpheus says later in the film, "She told you exactly what you needed to hear, that's all. Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." Just as The Oracle knew that "no one can tell you you're in love," she knew that no one could just tell Neo he's the One and he'd suddenly realize his potential. He had to walk the path, and make himself believe it through doing it.

 

In my mind at least, it's a nice, straightforward theme that makes sense. I'm sure there are some religious/Jesus themes involved here as well, but I just can't get into all of the other crazy, convoluted deeper stuff that goes into multiple lives and stuff. Besides, the dialogue in 2 and 3 stunk too much for me to get past that.

[ajzepp]

I can't tell if you think that's unfair to the Matrix trilogy or the Star Wars movies.

I can't tell if you think that's unfair to the Matrix trilogy or the Star Wars movies.

 

The star wars movies for sure!

[Mark Vader]

I can't tell if you think that's unfair to the Matrix trilogy or the Star Wars movies.

The star wars movies for sure!

Gotta agree with aj.

 

I know Rubes singled out the prequel trilogy of Star Wars, and I understand all the flack that "Phantom Menace" & "Attack of the Clones" gets. I have my issues with them too.

 

But c'mon, "Revenge of the Sith" is great from start to finish.

[ajzepp]

Definitely...I'll never put the prequels on par with the originals, but to me they were far better than the Matrix sequels....I'm certainly biased as an lifelong Star Wars fan, but I'm also on record many times saying that I consider the Matrix damn near perfect sci-fi and it's one of my all-time favorite films.

 

And yeah, I'll never forget my brother's reaction when I screened Sith for him. He and I saw Phantom Menace like five times together in the theater...but then after Clones he signed off on the prequels and wasn't going to see Sith. I had set up my first projector home theater and was trying to entice him to stop over to see the 133" screen by watching Sith. He reluctantly agreed, and as soon as it was over the first thing he said was, "there's no way Lucas did this by himself...he had Spielberg or someone helping out with this one." He ended up liking the film quite a bit. When I saw it, it was the day it came out during a matinee showing. I went to the IMAX alone since I couldn't find anyone to go that afternoon, so I got to see it on a massive screen with a bunch of fellow SW nerds (probably more than half the audience was people sitting alone lol). I loved pretty much everything about it...particularly Anakin's turn and the Immolation scene. Intense as hell!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Gotta agree with aj.

 

I know Rubes singled out the prequel trilogy of Star Wars, and I understand all the flack that "Phantom Menace" & "Attack of the Clones" gets. I have my issues with them too.

 

But c'mon, "Revenge of the Sith" is great from start to finish.

Great? From start to finish? You mean you didn't laugh your azz off at "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"?

 

Wow.

 

I thought it was a mess but it was a lot more fun than the first two snooze-fest prequels. I say that as a person who loved and grew up with the originals. The acting was just too poor in all 3 of the prequels for any to be called great. To be fair, it is really hard to act well with that much green screen / CGI. The directing has to be top-shelf, and Lucas never really had that as far as directing actors goes. He was a vision guy and he was good with the story when he had some constraints to deal with. Without them, there was just too much flab.

 

For an example of acting interaction with CGI done really well, I'd say "Life of Pi" was about a billion times better.

 

Lucas got lapped by the game. It's not really too hard to admit. He had his day.

[ajzepp]

I think people forget that Sith was actually met with very positive critical reception...it has an 80 on Rotten Tomatoes, which is an extremely strong score.