Why Hasn't the Team Used its Cap Space to Extend Players?

[GA BILLS FAN]

So, the Bills just renegotiated Brad Smith's deal, seemingly lowering his contract over next couple years and all but assuring he'll be one of the WR's on the final 53 -- this will now increase the CAP SPACE to over $20M for 2013, or 81% of the CAP --- they are only obligated to spend to 89% of the cap on average over the 4-year period 2013-2016 --- so, are they planning to pocket the difference ?? --- why not extend some guys ? -- or let the Fitz and Anderson dead money hit this year to give them more financial flexibility next year ? --- I don't get it, unless we see extensions for Wood and Spiller ---

[NoSaint]

So, the Bills just renegotiated Brad Smith's deal, seemingly lowering his contract over next couple years and all but assuring he'll be one of the WR's on the final 53 -- this will now increase the CAP SPACE to over $20M for 2013, or 81% of the CAP --- they are only obligated to spend to 89% of the cap on average over the 4-year period 2013-2016 --- so, are they planning to pocket the difference ?? --- why not extend some guys ? -- or let the Fitz and Anderson dead money hit this year to give them more financial flexibility next year ? --- I don't get it, unless we see extensions for Wood and Spiller ---

 

9 of that 20 is rollover so they are at the threshold already. Your percentages are wrong.

[John from Riverside]

I personally love what they have done as far as coaches go.....and GM for that matter

 

Young fresh forward thinking

[Chas56]

Because RALPH IS CHEAP!!!

 

You know, it is a cliche and all that. It's funny because it gets brought up all the time. But I would like to see a chart of what the cap was, and what Ralph spent each year. Maybe if I saw it in black and white, I could say, "Hey, That Ralph is cheap stuff is B.S." I see the Bills spend money on Dockery or Williams, but I would just like to see a nice, simple chart. Maybe, even with Dockery and Williams, Ralph IS chearp. IDK.

[JohnC]

You know, it is a cliche and all that. It's funny because it gets brought up all the time. But I would like to see a chart of what the cap was, and what Ralph spent each year. Maybe if I saw it in black and white, I could say, "Hey, That Ralph is cheap stuff is B.S."

 

More often than not how much you spend is not as important as how you spend it. You can spend less and be very judicious and productive with your money; you can also foolishly spend more money and be less productive with your money. The amount of money unwisely spent on players such as Dockery, Langston Walker, Kelsay, Cornell Green etc then affects your ability to spend money on players you should keep and players you should pursue.

[GA BILLS FAN]

9 of that 20 is rollover so they are at the threshold already. Your percentages are wrong.

--- OK, so the $9M in carryover doesn't count, they should be above the 89% threshold --- I think the question remains, why not spend to the cap ? --- whether that's $20M+ or $11M+ --- they have room to spend and players to extend ---

[JohnC]

This is another falsehood that comes up every now and then. Mr. Wilson has always paid towards the top of the scale for coaches with proven track records. John Rauch, Saban II, Knox, and Levy during the glory years. I know that he would have loved if one of the coaches he took flyers on would have worked out so he could have done the same. But it hasn't. Largely for the other reasons you allude to; lack of capable people making football decisions. And yes, he has had a tendency to put too much faith into people that he trusts like Harvey Johnson, Kay Stephenson, and Levy as a GM. The coaches he paid top dollar to that I mentioned above were anything but yes men.

 

I'm not sure a high visibility coach would come to Buffalo at this stage, regardless of how much he was offered.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Chuck Knox did a sterling job for Wilson. He took over a flagging franchise and made it competitive. He not only was the HC but in many respects he acted as a GM. When his contract ran out he and the organization couldn't come to an agreement on a contract extension. One can reasonably make the case that he was the best HC that this organization ever had. He ended up walking away due to a contract issue.

[K-9]

Chuck Knox did a sterling job for Wilson. He took over a flagging franchise and made it competitive. He not only was the HC but in many respects he acted as a GM. When his contract ran out he and the organization couldn't come to an agreement on a contract extension. One can reasonably make the case that he was the best HC that this organization ever had. He ended up walking away due to a contract issue.

 

The contract issue was a side issue. He had been at war with Stew Barber since he was hired.

 

Mr. Wilson made Knox one of the highest paid coaches in the league when he hired him. Like I said.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JohnC]

The contract issue was a side issue. He had been at war with Stew Barber since he was hired.

 

Mr. Wilson made Knox one of the highest paid coaches in the league when he hired him. Like I said.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Chuck Knox left the organization because he couldn't come to a contract agreement with the owner. This is after he did a superlative job for him on his first contract. I don't doubt that there were internal conflicts but the primary reason that he left was due to contract issues with the owner.

 

The following is a Wikepedia quote. I am well aware that Wikepedia sourced material isn't the end all and be all but it does reflect the many reports I have read that Knox's departure was mostly due to money.

 

"In his first year (under the new 16-game schedule), Knox led the Bills to a 5-11 mark. Just two years later, the Bills won the AFC East title with an 11-5 record, but dropped a close battle with the high-powered San Diego Chargers in the divisional playoffs. The following year, his team defeated the Jets in a wild card clash, but then fell to the Cincinnati Bengals. After a 4-5 strike-shortened season in 1982, Knox failed to come to terms on a new contract with team owner Ralph Wilson, and left to accept the head coaching position with the Seahawks on January 26, 1983."

[K-9]

Chuck Knox left the organization because he couldn't come to a contract agreement with the owner. This is after he did a superlative job for him on his first contract. I don't doubt that there were internal conflicts but the primary reason that he left was due to contract issues with the owner.

 

The following is a Wikepedia quote. I am well aware that Wikepedia sourced material isn't the end all and be all but it does reflect the many reports I have read that Knox's departure was mostly due to money.

 

"In his first year (under the new 16-game schedule), Knox led the Bills to a 5-11 mark. Just two years later, the Bills won the AFC East title with an 11-5 record, but dropped a close battle with the high-powered San Diego Chargers in the divisional playoffs. The following year, his team defeated the Jets in a wild card clash, but then fell to the Cincinnati Bengals. After a 4-5 strike-shortened season in 1982, Knox failed to come to terms on a new contract with team owner Ralph Wilson, and left to accept the head coaching position with the Seahawks on January 26, 1983."

 

That is just not how it went down. It was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. When Stew Barber came aboard a year after Knox arrived, the animosity began immediately. Barber was an obstructionist to nearly everything that Knox tried to do and actively undermined Knox on several issues. A complete 180 from the near autonomy that Knox enjoyed in his first year with the club. That was a turbulent time.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JohnC]

That is just not how it went down. It was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. When Stew Barber came aboard a year after Knox arrived, the animosity began immediately. Barber was an obstructionist to nearly everything that Knox tried to do and actively undermined Knox on several issues. A complete 180 from the near autonomy that Knox enjoyed in his first year with the club. That was a turbulent time.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Who hired Barber? The owner did. If there was an irresolvable conflict between Knox and Barber don't you think that issue came up when his contract ended and a new contract was being negotiated? When a contract is being negotiated money is certainly a primary issue but so are the terms of how one functions within the organization. You don't think the issue associated with lines of authority came up? If it is as you described that the issue wasn't only over money then certainly another issue was over Knox's role within the organization and his relationship with Barber, who you described as an obstructionist.

 

Ralph Wilson was not known to be a wallflower who was afraid to meddle. Why didn't he intervene on the side of the productive employee instead of allowing the obstructionist drive the person out who turned his floundering team into a relevant team?

 

In this Knox saga there have been numerous reports that the issue that made Know walk away was his contract. In spite of the abundance of reporting on this issue you insist that it wasn't the case. Your explanation as to why Knox didn't sign another contract doesn't seem credible to me. It makes no sense.

 

Maybe I'm just too implacable on this issue (I plead guilty) but there are too many accounts that contradict your version of the Knox departure. The truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter which version of ours is more accurate. The bottom line is that this organizatiion made a very damaging blunder when they didn't renew his contract. The lesson is that ownership matters. The Buffalo franchise demonstrates the difference between having a competent and incompetent owner. If you don't believe me then check the record. There are a lot of issues that you and I can strenuously disagree over. What we can't disagree over is the team's record. It is black and white and not open to interpretation!

Edited July 28, 2013 by JohnC

[K-9]

Who hired Barber? The owner did. If there was an irresolvable conflict between Knox and Barber don't you think that issue came up when his contract ended and a new contract was being negotiated? When a contract is being negotiated money is certainly a primary issue but so are the terms of how one functions within the organization. You don't think the issue associated with lines of authority came up? If it is as you described that the issue wasn't only over money then certainly another issue was over Knox's role within the organization and his relationship with Barber, who you described as an obstructionist.

 

Ralph Wilson was not known to be a wallflower who was afraid to meddle. Why didn't he intervene on the side of the productive employee instead of allowing the obstructionist drive the person out who turned his floundering team into a relevant team?

 

In this Knox saga there have been numerous reports that the issue that made Know walk away was his contract. In spite of the abundance of reporting on this issue you insist that it wasn't the case. Your explanation as to why Knox didn't sign another contract doesn't seem credible to me. It makes no sense.

 

Maybe I'm just too implacable on this issue (I plead guilty) but there are too many accounts that contradict your version of the Knox departure. The truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter which version of ours is more accurate. The bottom line is that this organizatiion made a very damaging blunder when they didn't renew his contract. The lesson is that ownership matters. The Buffalo franchise demonstrates the difference between having a competent and incompetent owner. If you don't believe me then check the record. There are a lot of issues that you and I can strenuously disagree over. What we can't disagree over is the team's record. It is black and white and not open to interpretation!

 

The statement made was Ralph Wilson didn't want to pay top dollar for coaches. I corrected that statement by pointing out that Ralph Wilson has paid top dollar for coaches in the past and Knox was just one example.

 

You then tried to refute that by suggesting that Ralph Wilson was too cheap to re-sign Chuck Knox, therefore he really IS cheap in spite of the fact that he had previously made Knox one of the highest paid coaches in league history at the time. I tried to provide additional context to your Wiki link that is derived from my own experience. That contradicts your narrative so it's rejected out of hand. So be it.

 

But in thinking back on the turmoil around the building at the time, I don't think Chuck Knox was gonna re-sign for ANY amount so long as Stew Barber remained the GM. You're damned right Mr. Wilson hired Barber and he backed the wrong horse one too many times during Knox's tenure. Stew Barber did more to ruin the credibility of the franchise than anyone in history and I know that Mr. Wilson regrets the Barber hire to this day.

 

Not only are you implacable on the issue, you are outright bitter. Over the years here, the one thing that has ticked me off the most are the ignorant "Ralph is cheap" rants. That is because I personally know that nothing could be farther from the truth, both in terms of running his team and his foundation. When people throw out terms like "shyster owner" like you did, I feel a need add some context to the conversation. And I don't give a rat's ass if you are edified by that information or not. I am content with what I know.

 

Ironically, Mr. Wilson would be the first person to tell you how much he has screwed the pooch in terms of running his football team. Nobody has EVER denied that his skills as an owner are lacking. Perhaps I'll post that on Wiki as well.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[You herd it hear last]

Here's to hoping this time next year we're discussing the imminent extension of Super Bowl MVP, EJ Manuel.

[JohnC]

 

But in thinking back on the turmoil around the building at the time, I don't think Chuck Knox was gonna re-sign for ANY amount so long as Stew Barber remained the GM. You're damned right Mr. Wilson hired Barber and he backed the wrong horse one too many times during Knox's tenure. Stew Barber did more to ruin the credibility of the franchise than anyone in history and I know that Mr. Wilson regrets the Barber hire to this day.

 

Not only are you implacable on the issue, you are outright bitter. Over the years here, the one thing that has ticked me off the most are the ignorant "Ralph is cheap" rants. That is because I personally know that nothing could be farther from the truth, both in terms of running his team and his foundation. When people throw out terms like "shyster owner" like you did, I feel a need add some context to the conversation. And I don't give a rat's ass if you are edified by that information or not. I am content with what I know.

 

Ironically, Mr. Wilson would be the first person to tell you how much he has screwed the pooch in terms of running his football team. Nobody has EVER denied that his skills as an owner are lacking. Perhaps I'll post that on Wiki as well.

 

Where is the logic in backing Barber who was an organizatinal malignacy who created an environment of obstruction (your description) against a HC who salvaged his franchise from irrelevancy to being a serious team? That isn't making a bad decision----it is a stupendously bad decision. He not only hired Barber but he kept him on a lot longer than he should have. Wilson isn't the type of hardnosed business person to allow himself to be deceived. He sided with Barber over the HC because that is what he wanted to do. That was his decision. He made the decision he wanted to make for some inexplicable reason.

 

Wilson has been generous with his charitable contributions. I have never said anything critical about that. But his stewardship of the franchise has been far from being enlightening. We can go back and forth on the business approach he takes with respect to the franchise. Who cares. His record speaks for itself.

[DefenseWins]

Neither Levitre or Byrd are worth the money.

 

Wood is often injured, MAYBE they want to see if he can make it through a full season healthy?

 

CJ will get paid but at what price? He isn't AP and never will be so he won't see AP Type money. Problem is he and his agent will say and think he is the best and that causes issues.

 

Honestly I wouldnt' extend anyone at this point either. Wait until into the season and see how they are progressing. Inintialize contact with the agent and see what #'s they are thinking. If they are stupid #'s like Livitre or Byrd wants, forget it.

 

And people wonder why the Bills never make the playoffs...

[K-9]

Where is the logic in backing Barber who was an organizatinal malignacy who created an environment of obstruction (your description) against a HC who salvaged his franchise from irrelevancy to being a serious team? That isn't making a bad decision----it is a stupendously bad decision. He not only hired Barber but he kept him on a lot longer than he should have. Wilson isn't the type of hardnosed business person to allow himself to be deceived. He sided with Barber over the HC because that is what he wanted to do. That was his decision. He made the decision he wanted to make for some inexplicable reason.

 

Wilson has been generous with his charitable contributions. I have never said anything critical about that. But his stewardship of the franchise has been far from being enlightening. We can go back and forth on the business approach he takes with respect to the franchise. Who cares. His record speaks for itself.

 

Then we are in agreement that Mr. Wilson screwed the pooch on numerous occasions, ESPECIALLY the Stew Barber hire. And he would be the first one to admit that.

 

Just don't try to tell me that Chuck Knox walked away because of money. "Failing to come to terms on a new contract" can often mean things other than money. And it did with Chuck Knox, who had a year left on his deal when he resigned. He basically demanded that Barber be dismissed and that didn't happen. Mr. Wilson was also peeved at reports that Knox had spoken to Seattle as well. Like I said, money was not the issue.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[first_and_ten]

This is another falsehood that comes up every now and then. Mr. Wilson has always paid towards the top of the scale for coaches with proven track records. John Rauch, Saban II, Knox, and Levy during the glory years. I know that he would have loved if one of the coaches he took flyers on would have worked out so he could have done the same. But it hasn't. Largely for the other reasons you allude to; lack of capable people making football decisions. And yes, he has had a tendency to put too much faith into people that he trusts like Harvey Johnson, Kay Stephenson, and Levy as a GM. The coaches he paid top dollar to that I mentioned above were anything but yes men.

 

I'm not sure a high visibility coach would come to Buffalo at this stage, regardless of how much he was offered.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I have to respectfully disagree. he paid Knox, but then how many coaches with proven track recordes were hired after Knox? Absolutely none. It's a known fact, as far as I've read over the years, that Ralph did not pay head coaches top dollar, Marv Levy came cheap because his track record was poor. How can you classify Levy as having a proven track record before coming to Buffalo? The coaches that were not yes men all were let go. Seriously, look at the hires from Chck Knox on. All yes men. None with the strong persoanlity it takes to really take the reigns and lead a football team. I will say, Marv Levy turned out to be a good coach, but with the talent Polian built, what coach wouldn't have won with that talent? It can be argued in another forum for a different time that many other coaches would have won a superbowl with that talent. Levy was definately a yes man also, in my opinion. What Ralph wanted , Ralph got with Marv. Yes, it's Ralph's team and he has the right to do what he wants with it, but mostly winning hasn't been one of them.

[T master]

If the Bills were serious about building a winner, they would use their $20 M of 2013 cap space to extend Wood and/or Spiller. Roster bonuses only count against the cap in their year they are paid so they could spend up to $20 M in roster bonuses as part of multi-year extensions with no effect on the cap in 2014 and beyond.

 

The Bills had sufficient cap room to sign both Levitre and Byrd. If they elected to use that cap space for other purposes, that would be one thing. But instead they just simply squandered it and got "atta boys" from plenty of people on this Board for doing so. They even moved $1.6 M of Anderson's dead money into 2014 when they could have eaten it all in 2013 and kept more money for next year.

 

Also, i people think that Levitre and Byrd were too expensive, you have to realize that was partly because they did not extend these players before their contracts expired. You can get concessions from the player if you don't make them risk injury in a contract year and increase guarantees.

 

I think they were planning on using that to keep Byrd but he & his agent are asking for record money for a safety , which the Bills are not willing to pay ..

 

Hopefully this will be the beginning of them using their heads a bit more when it comes to certain contract signings , b/c after the Kelsay, Fitz, B Smith, Anderson contract fiasco's we need a bit more caution for lack of a better word when it comes to contracts !!

 

Plus with all that dead money from Anderson & Fitz moved to next year i suppose if CJ has a great season as all are thinking he will , if he holds out due to him out performing his rookie contract the Bills we be in a world of S**T due to prior contract ignorants .

 

If that be the case who ever is responsible for Fitz, Anderson, screw up needs to lose their job ASAP !!!

Edited July 28, 2013 by T master

[nucci]

Then we are in agreement that Mr. Wilson screwed the pooch on numerous occasions, ESPECIALLY the Stew Barber hire. And he would be the first one to admit that.

 

Just don't try to tell me that Chuck Knox walked away because of money. "Failing to come to terms on a new contract" can often mean things other than money. And it did with Chuck Knox, who had a year left on his deal when he resigned. He basically demanded that Barber be dismissed and that didn't happen. Mr. Wilson was also peeved at reports that Knox had spoken to Seattle as well. Like I said, money was not the issue.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I don't think Knox left because of money. When he was hired he was given complete control over personnel. It was obvious in the way he quickly turned the team around. His early drafts were incredible. I believe he left because he was losing power over personnel decisions.

Edited July 28, 2013 by nucci

[K-9]

I have to respectfully disagree. he paid Knox, but then how many coaches with proven track recordes were hired after Knox? Absolutely none. It's a known fact, as far as I've read over the years, that Ralph did not pay head coaches top dollar, Marv Levy came cheap because his track record was poor. How can you classify Levy as having a proven track record before coming to Buffalo? The coaches that were not yes men all were let go. Seriously, look at the hires from Chck Knox on. All yes men. None with the strong persoanlity it takes to really take the reigns and lead a football team. I will say, Marv Levy turned out to be a good coach, but with the talent Polian built, what coach wouldn't have won with that talent? It can be argued in another forum for a different time that many other coaches would have won a superbowl with that talent. Levy was definately a yes man also, in my opinion. What Ralph wanted , Ralph got with Marv. Yes, it's Ralph's team and he has the right to do what he wants with it, but mostly winning hasn't been one of them.

 

You are confusing the issues. Not hiring "big name coaches" is not the same as not paying high salaries. It's easy to sit back and say he didn't hire any "big name coaches" because he didn't want to pay them, but it was always more of a comfort issue than a money issue with Mr. Wilson.

 

Of course Levy wasn't paid at the high end of the scale initially. He was after his first contract, during their SB years. That's what I meant by "glory years."

 

Stupid, stubborn, clueless, etc, yes. Ralph Wilson has been all of these when it comes to hiring the people to run his organization. But he's been willing to pay for proven results. Both players and coaches.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I don't think Knox left because of money. When he was hired he was given complete control over personnel. It was obvious in the way he quickly turned the team around. His early drafts were incredible. I believe he left because he was losing power over personnel decisions.

 

This is true but it doesn't fit the convenient narrative that "Ralph is cheap." Knox did have more of a say over personnel when he first got there because he had a good relationship with Lustig. Barber ruined that.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 28, 2013 by K-9