Luxy312 Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 "Huge" isnt hte word for it, MONUMENTAL issue, and issue larger than space itself, the giant gorilla in the room. It was the key reason we sucked so bad on D last year, IMO! To expand on this point, you simply have to look at the Bills performance last year defensively on third and long. They were one of the worst teams in the NFL. Why? Was it player personnel? I would say no. Going back and looking at game film, they were predictable. During games, I was calling their plays from my sofa while the guys were still in the huddle. If I can do it, you can bet that opposing NFL coaches can do it as well. One other thing I'll add here about the defense is that Mario Williams didn't have a bad year last year. He did have one of the quietest 10.5 sack seasons that I've ever seen. Great article on Pettine and glad to see that he's hungry to prove himself. Rhetorical question as well for the board, but how many truly great defensive coordinators didn't become head coaches at some point? I can't think of any.
BringBackFergy Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 To expand on this point, you simply have to look at the Bills performance last year defensively on third and long. They were one of the worst teams in the NFL. Why? Was it player personnel? I would say no. Going back and looking at game film, they were predictable. During games, I was calling their plays from my sofa while the guys were still in the huddle. If I can do it, you can bet that opposing NFL coaches can do it as well. One other thing I'll add here about the defense is that Mario Williams didn't have a bad year last year. He did have one of the quietest 10.5 sack seasons that I've ever seen. Great article on Pettine and glad to see that he's hungry to prove himself. Rhetorical question as well for the board, but how many truly great defensive coordinators didn't become head coaches at some point? I can't think of any. Dick Labeau?? Walt Corey??
FluffHead Posted July 24, 2013 Author Posted July 24, 2013 Dick Labeau?? Walt Corey?? Dick Lebeau became the head coach of the Bengals. Was Walt Corey truly great?
thebandit27 Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 He will be coaching in Kollege in 3 years, after the Bills go 10 - 38 while blowing 3 more years "re-tooling" their roster to fit Pettine's 3 - 4 scheme. Lets see, they need a nose tackle, two outside LBs, one corner, and that only works if Dareus and Mario can hold the edge in a 3 - 4, which neither one probably will do because 1) Mario will be moved to outside LB where he proved to be pretty useless in Houston after Wade came in, so that's a $15m/year waste of $$. Dareus is a quick quick 3 technique inside one gap guy, so he will fail as a 3 - 4 5 technique two gap guy or a nose tackle, as we saw two years ago. Kyle is a smaller version of Dareus, a 3 - technique guy forced to play undersized as run-stufffer (ha!) at nose tackle instead of shooting the 3 gap which is his game. On paper, its all pretty much f-ed up I'm sorry to say. NFL players don't change their spots too well. This change to a base 3 - 4 looks like a mess. Fortunately, the game is not played on paper and the players will play hard to the whistle, like all Bills teams do to their credit, but the specialized 4 - 3 defensive personnel piled up by Jauron and Nix over the past 5 years simply do not fit what Pettine knows best. We shall see. Hard to be optimistic when coaches, players and schemes are either brand new or the personnel do not fit the scheme, or, in the case of the 2013 Bills, both. Sorry, I am a big Bills fan, but I am pretty down this franchise right now (as you can probably tell). Truth to power. I can honestly say that I've never seen a more deliberately inaccurate post in my life. Anyone that would characterize Mario's 5 sacks in 5 games at OLB in Houston the way you have is simply trolling...no one is that stupid.
HamSandwhich Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 To expand on this point, you simply have to look at the Bills performance last year defensively on third and long. They were one of the worst teams in the NFL. Why? Was it player personnel? I would say no. Going back and looking at game film, they were predictable. During games, I was calling their plays from my sofa while the guys were still in the huddle. If I can do it, you can bet that opposing NFL coaches can do it as well. One other thing I'll add here about the defense is that Mario Williams didn't have a bad year last year. He did have one of the quietest 10.5 sack seasons that I've ever seen. Great article on Pettine and glad to see that he's hungry to prove himself. Rhetorical question as well for the board, but how many truly great defensive coordinators didn't become head coaches at some point? I can't think of any. How dare you expand on my perfectly written post. Until we stop the run we won't stop a nosebleed. With the seats I'll likely get when I go to a game this year, I'll need them to master the latter.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 He will be coaching in Kollege in 3 years, after the Bills go 10 - 38 while blowing 3 more years "re-tooling" their roster to fit Pettine's 3 - 4 scheme. Lets see, they need a nose tackle, two outside LBs, one corner, and that only works if Dareus and Mario can hold the edge in a 3 - 4, which neither one probably will do because 1) Mario will be moved to outside LB where he proved to be pretty useless in Houston after Wade came in, so that's a $15m/year waste of $$. Dareus is a quick quick 3 technique inside one gap guy, so he will fail as a 3 - 4 5 technique two gap guy or a nose tackle, as we saw two years ago. Kyle is a smaller version of Dareus, a 3 - technique guy forced to play undersized as run-stufffer (ha!) at nose tackle instead of shooting the 3 gap which is his game. On paper, its all pretty much f-ed up I'm sorry to say. NFL players don't change their spots too well. This change to a base 3 - 4 looks like a mess. Fortunately, the game is not played on paper and the players will play hard to the whistle, like all Bills teams do to their credit, but the specialized 4 - 3 defensive personnel piled up by Jauron and Nix over the past 5 years simply do not fit what Pettine knows best. We shall see. Hard to be optimistic when coaches, players and schemes are either brand new or the personnel do not fit the scheme, or, in the case of the 2013 Bills, both. Sorry, I am a big Bills fan, but I am pretty down this franchise right now (as you can probably tell). Truth to power. Pettine would be foolish to play a 3-4 a majority of the time. Marcel Dareus, despite his struggles, graded out well last year in terms of sacks+hurries+knockdowns (17.5). His 11 sacks over the last 2 years make him 4th best for a DT over that period-- despite his struggles in other areas he is already one of the best pass rushing DTs in the NFL. Kyle Williams' game is also rushing and penetrating. Alex Carrington is also at his best when he's shooting gaps. No coach worth their salt would look at this personnel and have them playing two gaps and clogging the line of scrimmage rather than shooting gaps and penetrating. We have one of the best pass rushing DTs in the league, so let's take that out of his game and make him a space eater? A quote from Pettine: "I'm not bringing any defense here; this is going to be the Buffalo Bills defense. It's going to be built around the explosive athletes that are here."
HamSandwhich Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Pettine would be foolish to play a 3-4 a majority of the time. Marcel Dareus, despite his struggles, graded out well last year in terms of sacks+hurries+knockdowns (17.5). His 11 sacks over the last 2 years make him 4th best for a DT over that period-- despite his struggles in other areas he is already one of the best pass rushing DTs in the NFL. Kyle Williams' game is also rushing and penetrating. Alex Carrington is also at his best when he's shooting gaps. No coach worth their salt would look at this personnel and have them playing two gaps and clogging the line of scrimmage rather than shooting gaps and penetrating. We have one of the best pass rushing DTs in the league, so let's take that out of his game and make him a space eater? A quote from Pettine: "I'm not bringing any defense here; this is going to be the Buffalo Bills defense. It's going to be built around the explosive athletes that are here." That's exactly what I was trying to get at earlier.
chris heff Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Great article - loved this line: “We all spend a lot of time studying people and trying to figure out what can get ’em. There are blitzes where you think nine people are coming and only three are,” said Ravens defensive line coach Clarence Thomas, who worked with Pettine and Ryan. “The timing has a lot to do with it. You have to change things up. You can’t do the same thing all the time." That seemed to be a HUGE issue last year! It'll be interesting to see what Pettine shows in the preseason - perhaps we'll get more than vanilla... Also, still amazed that some people *cough*8and8*cough* just KNOW that things are going to be awful. I mean without camp even being open they've written the Bills off. Hell, why not at least hope for the best, rather than fretting disaster... This is completely wrong! You want four guys with their hand in the dirt, rushing straight up field. The LB should play five yards off and wait for the play to come to them and they should not cover anybody! This gives the DB lots of time to run around with receivers and tire them out. Never never blitz! It worked so well last year.
HamSandwhich Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 This is completely wrong! You want four guys with their hand in the dirt, rushing straight up field. The LB should play five yards off and wait for the play to come to them and they should not cover anybody! This gives the DB lots of time to run around with receivers and tire them out. Never never blitz! It worked so well last year. I dont know, I think Wanny did adjust a few things in his D. A few jock straps when they were out sorts maybe?
atlbillsfan1975 Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Uhhh, didn't he have 5 sacks in like 4 games before being lost for the season in his only time ever spent as an outside LB? And also, I think the point of the article is that Pettine comes from the Ravens/Steelers/Jets school of thought that positions are overrated and you get your best 11 on the field. Look at the Ravens last year- they had Terrence Cody, who weighs like 370 pounds, playing the end in a 3-4. Why? Because Haloti Ngata plays NT. Obviously Cody would be best suited to play in the middle himself but he earned his playing time so they threw him at end and he was fine. When you start throwing out this "he's a z technique in 4-3 base, he won't even know which was is up in a 3-4" nonsense, you are out-thinking yourself. It's not that complicated. Not to mention, Mario Williams will get plenty of snaps with his hand in the dirt as well. He'll be the same player he's been (not that he's that great) regardless of scheme, trust me on this. They're freaking football players, they'll figure it out. It's not like they're learning a different sport. Maybe I'm forever a Bills optimist, but how can you not get excited about this guy and this defense? Yep, Mario had 5 sacks in 5 games. I stopped reading after that. Just another negative energy Bills fan.
BringBackFergy Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Dick Lebeau became the head coach of the Bengals. Was Walt Corey truly great? Lebeau has been with the Steelers for so long I forgot about that. Walt Corey was successful but seems the offense was more prominent in the media. I haven't looked up Corey's defensive stats during those Glory Years but I assume they were nothing to shake a stick at.
JESSEFEFFER Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Lebeau has been with the Steelers for so long I forgot about that. Walt Corey was successful but seems the offense was more prominent in the media. I haven't looked up Corey's defensive stats during those Glory Years but I assume they were nothing to shake a stick at. Any defense that complements a high scoring, no-huddle offense is going to give up yards when playing with a lead, which, by-the -way, is the dumbest way possible to rank a defense.
Chandler#81 Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Lebeau has been with the Steelers for so long I forgot about that. Walt Corey was successful but seems the offense was more prominent in the media. I haven't looked up Corey's defensive stats during those Glory Years but I assume they were nothing to shake a stick at. They weren't, but it had much more to do with our Point-A-Minute offense, than poor D design. We had Pro-Bowlers all over the field on D every year, but we were regularly ranked near the bottom statistically. Our opponents had to throw to keep up!
eball Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Lebeau has been with the Steelers for so long I forgot about that. Walt Corey was successful but seems the offense was more prominent in the media. I haven't looked up Corey's defensive stats during those Glory Years but I assume they were nothing to shake a swizzle stick at. Fixed. But seriously, while Corey's defenses weren't "bad" you also have to recognize the talent he was handed -- Bruce, Biscuit, Talley, Hansen, Conlan, Odomes, Jones, Wright. It was ridiculous. I always felt Corey made the least of what he had.
nucci Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Fixed. But seriously, while Corey's defenses weren't "bad" you also have to recognize the talent he was handed -- Bruce, Biscuit, Talley, Hansen, Conlan, Odomes, Jones, Wright. It was ridiculous. I always felt Corey made the least of what he had. Those D were not consistently solid but they were also a big play D. Sacks, Turnovers, TDs......
eball Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Those D were not consistently solid but they were also a big play D. Sacks, Turnovers, TDs...... Until it mattered most. The performance of the Bills' defense in the four SB losses was putrid. All of a sudden good coaches (Parcells, Gibbs, Johnson) gameplanned to neutralize the playmakers, and the sacks, turnovers, and TDs disappeared. Occasionally I sit back and wonder what would have happened with those teams had they been coached by some real strategists -- but then I stop because I don't want to make myself miserable.
K-9 Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Regarding Walt Corey and the Bills defenses during their SB years, it's true that Corey did the least with the most, IMO. But I'll see if I can boil it down (with NO apologies to the advance stat geeks). I've said for years that coaches look at only a few key stats for defenses and from them you can pretty much discern how good a defense really is. The two they always look at first are yards per play against and yards per rush against (yes, even in today's pass happy league). Corey's defenses were pretty stingy by those measures during the SB years. Gross yards mean little without context. GO BILLS!!!
Luxy312 Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Those D were not consistently solid but they were also a big play D. Sacks, Turnovers, TDs...... To make a simple point on that, you just need to look at the pdiff and ydiff stats. Defense appeared to give up a lot, but they were on the field a bunch. Offense made up for it by being one of the best in the NFL. On the contrary to the current team, they've been sporting an average offense, but toting out a crappy defense. No team will win many games that way. Scoring more points will make up a lot and help though.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted July 24, 2013 Posted July 24, 2013 Cue the "how long until Pettine leaves to become a HC" thread. You know, while the honeymoon is still ongoing with Marrone, I think we might have been ok with picking up Pettine instead. Of course, he probably wouldn't have wanted Manuel so early, so it's kind of hard to say. I do worry a little that if he does a really amazing job we might lose him when offered a spot for another team...of course, that would mean that the Bills are doing really well. Who else wants to bet that the first defensive play of the season is a blitz? I may take that. I sometimes like to bet against what I want to happen. MOW 'EM DOWN! Until we stop the run we won't stop a nosebleed. Fair point, though I am going to give Pettine the benefit of the doubt for now. I'm happy about Bradham returning, and a big fan for swapping out Sheppard and Barnett for Alonso and Lawson. Mario was decent against runs to the outside last year. Whether this is an appreciable increase in talent, or if the scheme is sufficient to stop the run...I don't know. But I'm excited to see.
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