Mark Anderson released.

[K-9]

Yes, that's it. It must be the multiple, coincidental failures of a slew of different people - Gregg, Mularkey, Jauron, Gailey, Nix, John Guy, Donaohoe, etc. Much more credible explanation than the simple and obvious one that points to the same Triumverate of Failure that has run this franchise throughout all of those tenures. Oh and all of the repeated stories and reports to the contrary must be false because those folks had axes to grind. Gotcha.

 

Two of that same triumverate, Mr. Wilson and Littman, were present and presided over their most successful run in team history.

 

Were you on record denouncing the Donahoe hire BEFORE your 20/20 hindsight kicked in?

 

As to the repeated stories, I don't put any stock in them at this time. Like I said earlier, I know some carry grudges going back to the Stew Barber days and without attribution, I have to take these stories with a grain of salt.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Delete This Account]

John much respect to you and thank you for providing your input.

 

I really think that people get too caught up in blaming current management decisions on who we have for present management.....some of the guys were here....we don't know the scope of their power at that time or even the schematics of how things went down....football people should be making player decisions.

 

I firmly stand by the fact that I believe change is in the air at one bills drive.......we went from having a bunch of old geezers running the show to the youngest management in the league. We start from fresh with a widely thought of college coach who has a track record of turning losing to winning.....and working with scraps.

 

Our GM comes from a winning organization.....and while he is young he has been here a while which I think helps. Our defensive coordinator has had top 10 defenses in near EVERY year and sometimes much better then that.

 

I look at the Mike Anderson situation as he just doesn't fit anymore.....if there has been any common theme presented so far is you better do a lot of things well instead of one thing great if you want to be on this team.....and I like that approach. They admit their mistake with Mike Anderson and don't wait taking valuable playing time away from younger guys.

 

They did in fact draft their quarterback

 

Regarding Eric Wood....IF he stays healthy I would be will to lay money that he signs here.......

 

And regarding Byrd....I want him back as well but what is the purpose of having a franchise tag if teams are not able to use the darn thing?

 

that's all i'm doing, attempting to provide input and perspective. i could be wrong. heck, i was particularly wrong last year when i went out and wrote here and spoke on numerous radio stations of how i expected the Bills to be a playoff team.

 

you're a fan. you have every right to hope and support this team and terms of having turned the corner under this fresh start. me, i'm trying to stay objective. and as i told someone recently, i won't start judging the makeup of this team and the new front-office until after this season and, perhaps, another offseason.

 

while some things have changed, they've changed in title, name and talk only. the question remains whether all this change translates into creating a winner. we won't know that for at least another 18 months, i think.

 

jw

[Cash]

that's all i'm doing, attempting to provide input and perspective. i could be wrong. heck, i was particularly wrong last year when i went out and wrote here and spoke on numerous radio stations of how i expected the Bills to be a playoff team.

 

you're a fan. you have every right to hope and support this team and terms of having turned the corner under this fresh start. me, i'm trying to stay objective. and as i told someone recently, i won't start judging the makeup of this team and the new front-office until after this season and, perhaps, another offseason.

 

while some things have changed, they've changed in title, name and talk only. the question remains whether all this change translates into creating a winner. we won't know that for at least another 18 months, i think.

 

jw

 

Very good post. As a fan, I very much hope that things really have changed, but I've been burned too many times to expect it until I see it. (And even then I've been burned -- see 2008 & 2011.)

 

When an organization has such a strong pattern of failure over such a long period, I have to take a step back and say that regardless of what went into each individual decision, there is a fundamental organizational problem. K-9, you can defend each individual decision all you want, and you can blame every indefensible one on a since-fired coach, but the bottom line is that if every team really was run like the Bills, then the Bills would be average. Instead, they're moribund. It's hard to be really good in the NFL, but it's also hard to be really bad for very long. Between the draft and the huge amount of variance in such a short season, even a bad organization should get passable for stretches here and there. Even Mike Brown's Bungles have had some recent success, and I don't think anyone would claim he's a good owner or deny that he's cheap.

 

I hope change is in the air, but even if it isn't, I'll still keep hoping for the best every year. If Mike Brown can skinflint his way to Marvin Lewis and 4 playoff appearances in 10 years, than so can Ralph!

[GG]

Two of that same triumverate, Mr. Wilson and Littman, were present and presided over their most successful run in team history.

 

Were you on record denouncing the Donahoe hire BEFORE your 20/20 hindsight kicked in?

 

As to the repeated stories, I don't put any stock in them at this time. Like I said earlier, I know some carry grudges going back to the Stew Barber days and without attribution, I have to take these stories with a grain of salt.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

And that's my opinion duggummit, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

 

Next thing people will say that the Cornell Green signing was a logical football move because he was a good fit for the offense and not a knee jerk reaction to the gaping hole left at RT because someone decided that Langston Walker couldn't handle Jauron's pop gun offense.

[BillsVet]

Then please explain the success of the 90s given that Mr. Wilson and Littman were running the same show.

 

Bill Polian made up for the poor organizational philosophy with outstanding drafts and personnel decisisons. He was so much better than everyone that people didn't notice the how dysfunctional the Bills were managed by the owner and his top people. In the span of 4 years (85-88) he drafted multiple HOF'ers (B.Smith, Thurman and soon to be Reed), signed another (Kelly) and continued to find players in later rounds that added key depth. But you know this already, correct?

 

The BIlls haven't had a GM who could make up for their poor organizational philosophy with outstanding drafts and other personnel transactions since Polian. Even Butler couldn't keep the pace and the Bills glory years ended. But again, you already knew that.

 

Not to mention you're comparing two entirely different eras. No free agency, as someone already mentioned. And, teams weren't as equal in terms of scouting. The Bills were finding players from all over the country, in later rounds, and signing guys who could play. Now, there are no secrets on drafts day.

 

The Bills succeeded from '88 to '99 because the front office could make up with talent acquisiton for senior management interventions in personnel.

 

But you already knew that.

[K-9]

And that's my opinion duggummit, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

 

Next thing people will say that the Cornell Green signing was a logical football move because he was a good fit for the offense and not a knee jerk reaction to the gaping hole left at RT because someone decided that Langston Walker couldn't handle Jauron's pop gun offense.

 

The evidence is anything but clear given the arguments I've presented. If they don't suffice for your gratification, I can live with it.

 

The Cornell Green signing turned out to be a disaster. Key phrase being "turned out to be." While I believe Walker was put in an unfair position with his move to LT, given that they didn't do anything to address the position in the off season, for whatever reason he had regressed, was out of shape, and was getting humiliated on a regular basis.

 

If you could link me to all the posts decrying the announced move of Walker to LT in April of that year BEFORE training camp began, I'd be interested in seeing all the prescient talk about how stupid that move WOULD turn out to be.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Bill Polian made up for the poor organizational philosophy with outstanding drafts and personnel decisisons. He was so much better than everyone that people didn't notice the how dysfunctional the Bills were managed by the owner and his top people. In the span of 4 years (85-88) he drafted multiple HOF'ers (B.Smith, Thurman and soon to be Reed), signed another (Kelly) and continued to find players in later rounds that added key depth. But you know this already, correct?

 

The BIlls haven't had a GM who could make up for their poor organizational philosophy with outstanding drafts and other personnel transactions since Polian. Even Butler couldn't keep the pace and the Bills glory years ended. But again, you already knew that.

 

Not to mention you're comparing two entirely different eras. No free agency, as someone already mentioned. And, teams weren't as equal in terms of scouting. The Bills were finding players from all over the country, in later rounds, and signing guys who could play. Now, there are no secrets on drafts day.

 

The Bills succeeded from '88 to '99 because the front office could make up with talent acquisiton for senior management interventions in personnel.

 

But you already knew that.

 

Oh, that's rich. They were successful IN SPITE of the miserly presence of Wilson and Littman. Like they weren't on board with handing out record contracts hand over fist during that time.

 

Like I've been saying all along, Mr. Wilson has made some bad choices in GMs who've made even worse choices in coaches and player personnel. Little to do with tight purse strings.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 25, 2013 by K-9

[GG]

The evidence is anything but clear given the arguments I've presented. If they don't suffice for your gratification, I can live with it.

 

The Cornell Green signing turned out to be a disaster. Key phrase being "turned out to be." While I believe Walker was put in an unfair position with his move to LT, given that they didn't do anything to address the position in the off season, for whatever reason he had regressed, was out of shape, and was getting humiliated on a regular basis.

 

If you could link me to all the posts decrying the announced move of Walker to LT in April of that year BEFORE training camp began, I'd be interested in seeing all the prescient talk about how stupid that move WOULD turn out to be.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

Oh, that's rich. They were successful IN SPITE of the miserly presence of Wilson and Littman. Like they weren't on board with handing out record contracts hand over fist during that time.

 

Like I've been saying all along, Mr. Wilson has made some bad choices in GMs who've made even worse choices in coaches and player personnel. Little to do with tight purse strings.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Yes, the evidence is so compelling that you need to twist facts & timelines to fit your version of the history. Too bad there are many more people and the intertubes to keep faulty memories in check.

 

There were plenty of people decrying Walker's move to LT in the offseason for the basic reason that he was not suited for the job. In fact, I recall most people's reaction was no way can Walker's move to LT be the real plan, because the guy is not an LT. Walker himself questioned the move. But it's convenient that you blame him being out of shape as the reason for the cut, and not the trainwreck offense that Jauron wanted Schonert to run and be led by a noodle arm QB. At the time, the fan base (as usual) was willing to give the professionals the benefit of the doubt, because surely there is no way that you would trust your blindside protection to a guy who never played the position, then not blink an eye when that guy got cut and you handed the job to a weakling with zero experience on the offensive line. No, there was absolutely no influence from the non-football people on these personnel moves.

 

And yes, Polian was successful because he didn't need to reign in the spending of every player because free agency was an infant. Do you think it's a coincidence that he left shortly after Bills lost Wolford in free agency? Exactly on what terms did Butler leave OBD?

Edited July 25, 2013 by GG

[Delete This Account]

Yes, the evidence is so compelling that you need to twist facts & timelines to fit your version of the history. Too bad there are many more people and the intertubes to keep faulty memories in check.

 

There were plenty of people decrying Walker's move to LT in the offseason for the basic reason that he was not suited for the job. In fact, I recall most people's reaction was no way can Walker's move to LT be the real plan, because the guy is not an LT. Walker himself questioned the move. But it's convenient that you blame him being out of shape as the reason for the cut, and not the trainwreck offense that Jauron wanted Schonert to run and be led by a noodle arm QB. At the time, the fan base (as usual) was willing to give the professionals the benefit of the doubt, because surely there is no way that you would trust your blindside protection to a guy who never played the position, then not blink an eye when that guy got cut and you handed the job to a weakling with zero experience on the offensive line. No, there was absolutely no influence from the non-football people on these personnel moves.

 

And yes, Polian was successful because he didn't need to reign in the spending of every player because free agency was an infant. Do you think it's a coincidence that he left shortly after Bills lost Wolford in free agency? Exactly on what terms did Butler leave OBD?

 

good point. and the reason the Bills were forced to make the switch is because they lost Peters the season before. as a result, Demetrius Bell and Jonathan Scott took over as LT. the following season, the Bills plugged the RT spot with the one and only Mansfield Wrotto.

 

jw

[Sisyphean Bills]

Like I've been saying all along, Mr. Wilson has made some bad choices in GMs who've made even worse choices in coaches and player personnel. Little to do with tight purse strings.

 

That can be viewed from the small end of the telescope as well. Ralph hired the GMs that he wanted directly because they were people he trusted to toe the line and run his ship exactly as he wanted it run, including whatever restrictions he wanted placed on spending. Does every other team have 2 GMs retire in midstep and a head coach up and quit?

 

By the way, not every other team views non-starting veterans as a football liability that needs to be solved before the players even hit the practice field.

[K-9]

Yes, the evidence is so compelling that you need to twist facts & timelines to fit your version of the history. Too bad there are many more people and the intertubes to keep faulty memories in check.

 

There were plenty of people decrying Walker's move to LT in the offseason for the basic reason that he was not suited for the job. In fact, I recall most people's reaction was no way can Walker's move to LT be the real plan, because the guy is not an LT. Walker himself questioned the move. But it's convenient that you blame him being out of shape as the reason for the cut, and not the trainwreck offense that Jauron wanted Schonert to run and be led by a noodle arm QB. At the time, the fan base (as usual) was willing to give the professionals the benefit of the doubt, because surely there is no way that you would trust your blindside protection to a guy who never played the position, then not blink an eye when that guy got cut and you handed the job to a weakling with zero experience on the offensive line. No, there was absolutely no influence from the non-football people on these personnel moves.

 

And yes, Polian was successful because he didn't need to reign in the spending of every player because free agency was an infant. Do you think it's a coincidence that he left shortly after Bills lost Wolford in free agency? Exactly on what terms did Butler leave OBD?

 

I'm not twisting any facts here to my knowledge. The Bills announced they were moving Walker to LT in April of that year. I don't recall more than a few posts decrying the move at the time. If you were one of those, congrats. And Walker certainly WAS NOT in shape to run Schonert's hurry up. He was constantly laboring to keep up. That isn't a 'convenience' for my argument, just a fact that contributed to his release. It was painfully obvious. Can you come up with another reason as to why he got his ass handed to him in the pre-season, both in camp and in the games? I mean other than he didn't like playing a position he wasn't suited for? Like I said, blame stupid coaches for the bonehead decision to move him in the first place.

 

The bigger question is why did they fire Schonert so close to the opening kickoff, anyway.

 

Polian left for a myriad of reasons. Wilford is the last reason I can think of. Polian knew full well the ramifications of the poison pill inserted in that contract language and, while he begrudged Littman for a lot of things over the years, the Wilford deal wasn't one of them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Coach Tuesday]

That can be viewed from the small end of the telescope as well. Ralph hired the GMs that he wanted directly because they were people he trusted to toe the line and run his ship exactly as he wanted it run, including whatever restrictions he wanted placed on spending. Does every other team have 2 GMs retire in midstep and a head coach up and quit?

 

By the way, not every other team views non-starting veterans as a football liability that needs to be solved before the players even hit the practice field.

 

And following that thread - why do you think so many qualified coaches have refused to even interview with the Bills? Harbaugh was one. hell, Brian Schottenheimer refused to interview with OBD. The reason is obvious (to most of us) - the league knows how dysfunctional things are at OBD, and coaches know that their roster is going to be shaped by accountants.

 

So back to the original point. Lots of folks (actually only a few folks, lots of times) are claiming that Anderson was a poor scheme fit. Just like Dwan Edwards was a poor scheme fit. Etc. etc. This is a team with a ton of cap room and zero depth, and it's not like they needed the money to lock up Levitre and Byrd. You really think it would hurt the Bills to have a guy like Anderson sitting on the shelf, ready to contribute in case of an injury, etc.? Tell me what the downside of that is. Honestly there is none. K-9, you are doing cartwheels and backflips to avoid the real issue here. Wawrow and Cash hit the nail on the head: the Bills do not invest in veteran depth. When they can release vets to lower the bottom line in areas that the casual fan won't notice (and some casual fans will even defend), they will do so. THAT IS ONE BIG REASON WHY THEY CONTINUE TO SUCK. And yes I'm shouting now, because I can't believe anyone still sticks their head in the sand and refused to acknowledge what most fans, the media, and the rest of the league have accepted as obvious and true.

 

What bugs me about this transaction is that you can set your watch to it. Every year in or around training camp the Bills cut a few veterans, and every year, like clockwork, the Bills run out of players later in the season and sign guys off of the street to replace them. They do not pay for depth and it kills them. But not until November or December, long after most of the tickets have been sold.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Coach Tuesday

[K-9]

That can be viewed from the small end of the telescope as well. Ralph hired the GMs that he wanted directly because they were people he trusted to toe the line and run his ship exactly as he wanted it run, including whatever restrictions he wanted placed on spending. Does every other team have 2 GMs retire in midstep and a head coach up and quit?

 

By the way, not every other team views non-starting veterans as a football liability that needs to be solved before the players even hit the practice field.

 

Except for the time he hired and gave Donahoe unprecedented autonomy and title, I would agree with you on Ralph's tendencies towards hiring people he knows and trusts very well. And that has burned him countless times.

 

As to your second point, that depends on the team and their relative state of development. For young, building teams, keeping veterans with high salaries as backups can often be a hindrance both in the locker room and to the bottom line. Additionally, as in the case of Milloy, Adams, and Campbell, it is quite common for higher-priced veterans to be released prior to the start of free agency to open cap room. Especially when it's a new regime coming in. Not uncommon at all. And certainly not unique to the Bills.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'm not twisting any facts here to my knowledge. The Bills announced they were moving Walker to LT in April of that year. I don't recall more than a few posts decrying the move at the time. If you were one of those, congrats. And Walker certainly WAS NOT in shape to run Schonert's hurry up. He was constantly laboring to keep up. That isn't a 'convenience' for my argument, just a fact that contributed to his release. It was painfully obvious. Can you come up with another reason as to why he got his ass handed to him in the pre-season, both in camp and in the games? I mean other than he didn't like playing a position he wasn't suited for? Like I said, blame stupid coaches for the bonehead decision to move him in the first place.

 

Actually, it was reported that Walker and Schobel took training camp off that year -- just going through the motions. Who was "handing him his ass"?

[GG]

I'm not twisting any facts here to my knowledge. The Bills announced they were moving Walker to LT in April of that year. I don't recall more than a few posts decrying the move at the time. If you were one of those, congrats. And Walker certainly WAS NOT in shape to run Schonert's hurry up. He was constantly laboring to keep up. That isn't a 'convenience' for my argument, just a fact that contributed to his release. It was painfully obvious. Can you come up with another reason as to why he got his ass handed to him in the pre-season, both in camp and in the games? I mean other than he didn't like playing a position he wasn't suited for? Like I said, blame stupid coaches for the bonehead decision to move him in the first place.

 

The bigger question is why did they fire Schonert so close to the opening kickoff, anyway.

 

Polian left for a myriad of reasons. Wilford is the last reason I can think of. Polian knew full well the ramifications of the poison pill inserted in that contract language and, while he begrudged Littman for a lot of things over the years, the Wilford deal wasn't one of them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Are you serious? Stop conflating the issue. Do you think Jauron's first plan was to go into the season with Langston Walker as his LT? There were other available veterans in the summer, but the Bills didn't sign any of them. So in addition to a moronic move by Jauron to install a no-huddle, he had to do it with an inferior cast that had two rookies in it. You may also recall that Schonert was not a big fan of how Jauron wanted to run the offense and committed career suicide for airing his views.

 

Yet you are the only one who thinks that this episode and all the other perplexing personnel moves over the last 12 years are the fault of the players & coaches and have nothing to do with the one constant that's been in place in the entire tenure of the franchise?

[Sisyphean Bills]

As to your second point, that depends on the team and their relative state of development. For young, building teams, keeping veterans with high salaries as backups can often be a hindrance both in the locker room and to the bottom line. Additionally, as in the case of Milloy, Adams, and Campbell, it is quite common for higher-priced veterans to be released prior to the start of free agency to open cap room. Especially when it's a new regime coming in. Not uncommon at all. And certainly not unique to the Bills.

 

Since when does free agency start at the end of July? Or 10 days before opening day?

 

And yeah, I can see how keeping solid veterans that know what it takes to be a professional around in the locker room would be a disaster.

[K-9]

Are you serious? Stop conflating the issue. Do you think Jauron's first plan was to go into the season with Langston Walker as his LT? There were other available veterans in the summer, but the Bills didn't sign any of them. So in addition to a moronic move by Jauron to install a no-huddle, he had to do it with an inferior cast that had two rookies in it. You may also recall that Schonert was not a big fan of how Jauron wanted to run the offense and committed career suicide for airing his views.

 

Yet you are the only one who thinks that this episode and all the other perplexing personnel moves over the last 12 years are the fault of the players & coaches and have nothing to do with the one constant that's been in place in the entire tenure of the franchise?

 

It was Jauron's plan at least as of April of '09 when they announced Walker's move to LT. But if you can link me to any credible source that says Littman got on the phone and instructed Jauron to cut Langston Walker and to not pursue anybody else to fill the position that summer, I'd be more than willing to change my stance. But I need something more than conspiracy theories on the matter.

 

I've tried to present actual football related issues relative to his dismissal as well as some others. I don't care if you disagree, but they are observable and plausible when looked at rationally.

 

Like I said, when poor performance meets potential dollar savings, that player is gone. And, again, that's not unique to the Bills.

 

You may have the last word.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

Nah, the highlight of the Bills season that year for me was collecting a 4th rd pick for a guy that logged four more catches in his career.

 

You made my point. The seasons here have been so bad that the highlight for the apologists can be getting a 4th round pick in exchange for a player and then having that player fall flat on his face with the other team. By October the apologists are so out of steam with this team that their focal point becomes schadenfreude.

 

You fools are so easy to sell a bill of goods too that it's ridiculous.

 

Here is the actual net worth of that transaction from an organizational standpoint....1st round pick ends up being traded for a fourth round pick when he should still be in his prime.

 

Evans pedered out. He was not a good use of a first round pick. It pointed out the Bills folly for not doing whatever it took to trade up and get a guy like Roethlisberger. The Evans deal was by no means a positive reflection of the Bills organization, yet the apologist sees it that way because any kind of win will suffice.

 

Then ask yourself why the owner isn't committed to winning football games. Because he is just like his apologists, he is easily satisfied.

[K-9]

Since when does free agency start at the end of July? Or 10 days before opening day?

 

And yeah, I can see how keeping solid veterans that know what it takes to be a professional around in the locker room would be a disaster.

 

I assume you're alluding to Walker? I've already pointed to his performance that summer.

 

No doubt, keeping solid veteran players can help out in the locker room of young teams. There are reasons to get rid of them at times, too, though. Teams as bad as the Bills tend to focus on STARTERS vs. depth given their lack of talent. Quality, experienced depth is a challenge and problem for most teams in the cap era. There are also the issues inherent when backups are making more than starters, etc. You can pooh-pooh that if you must, but it's a relevant dynamic.

 

I'm pretty sure that NONE of the players they cut or traded and saved money on in the process was the difference in the team being successful or not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[GG]

 

 

It was Jauron's plan at least as of April of '09 when they announced Walker's move to LT. But if you can link me to any credible source that says Littman got on the phone and instructed Jauron to cut Langston Walker and to not pursue anybody else to fill the position that summer, I'd be more than willing to change my stance. But I need something more than conspiracy theories on the matter.

 

I've tried to present actual football related issues relative to his dismissal as well as some others. I don't care if you disagree, but they are observable and plausible when looked at rationally.

 

Like I said, when poor performance meets potential dollar savings, that player is gone. And, again, that's not unique to the Bills.

 

You may have the last word.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Can you at least keep a consistent timeline? There was concern, but not panic in April because people gave obd the benefit of the doubt. That all changed in August when it became apparent that the plan wasn't working. And only the delusional fans thought it was a good move to cut walker outright given the weakness at RT.

 

And if you want more data to chew on, compare which franchise has the highest number of veteran cuts in the last week of preseason, right before the salaries become guaranteed for the season?

[JohnC]

I assume you're alluding to Walker? I've already pointed to his performance that summer.

 

No doubt, keeping solid veteran players can help out in the locker room of young teams. There are reasons to get rid of them at times, too, though. Teams as bad as the Bills tend to focus on STARTERS vs. depth given their lack of talent. Quality, experienced depth is a challenge and problem for most teams in the cap era. There are also the issues inherent when backups are making more than starters, etc. You can pooh-pooh that if you must, but it's a relevant dynamic.

 

I'm pretty sure that NONE of the players they cut or traded and saved money on in the process was the difference in the team being successful or not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

You have a point. The veterans that were cut didn't appreciably upgrade the roster because it was already lacking in talent. So your position is when you lack talent cut the reserve talent and make your team very vulnerabl in a sport that has a high rate of injuries.

 

The Bills have not made the playoffs in 13 consecutive years. The Bills have had 8 or 9 losing records in the past decade. According to you It can't be due to a systemic organizational issue, it must be bad luck! While the theatre of the absurd is going on part of the loyal audience is clapping and yelling bravo, bravo. Not I.