birdog1960 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) i went to a liberal arts undergrad school. the mantra there was "learn to think". not learn to memorize formulas and equations that you'll forget the day after the test but learn how to reason out the solutions long after they've been forgotten. i think it's proven a successful approach for generations of students. many of my classmates that majored in humanities have ended up in successful careers in law, finance, business, government (yup, even on the national stage, the best known a republican ! gasp) and the arts. many of those majoring in the sciences can write and speak very well and have at least a basic knowledge of the humanities (cue the insults directed at me). do we really want to produce only technical graduates from our universities? i don't think so. we need left and right brained folks studying together. it widens their horizons (lord knows, we have folks with narrow horizons around) and fosters innovation. in college, it's often stimulating and inspiring to discuss difficult problems with others that seem wired to think in a different manner. not so much on ppp. in any model, i will emphasize again the need for admission selectivity. as a teaching assistant at a large public university, i tried to teach chemistry to kids who didn't understand fractions. that's not fair to any of the students or to society. it supports unrealistic expectations and it wastes time and resources. Edited July 7, 2013 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices.... 8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola 8. Sociology 7. Fine Arts 6. Education 5. Religious Studies/Theology 4. Hospitality/Tourism 3. Nutrition 2. Psychology 1. Communications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices.... 8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola 8. Sociology 7. Fine Arts 6. Education 5. Religious Studies/Theology 4. Hospitality/Tourism 3. Nutrition 2. Psychology 1. Communications without diversity in education, we risk this sad result that the japanese are currently experiencing to the detriment of their entire economy: http://thediplomat.com/pacific-money/2012/10/10/japans-lost-art-of-innovation/. automatons are not generally innovative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 i went to a liberal arts undergrad school. the mantra there was "learn to think". Thanks. Now I have to explain to my wife why I'm laughing so damn hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Thanks. Now I have to explain to my wife why I'm laughing so damn hard. as i said, not so much on ppp... Edited July 7, 2013 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 i went to a liberal arts undergrad school. the mantra there was "learn to think". not learn to memorize formulas and equations that you'll forget the day after the test but learn how to reason out the solutions long after they've been forgotten. i think it's proven a successful approach for generations of students. many of my classmates that majored in humanities have ended up in successful careers in law, finance, business, government (yup, even on the national stage, the best known a republican ! gasp) and the arts. many of those majoring in the sciences can write and speak very well and have at least a basic knowledge of the humanities (cue the insults directed at me). do we really want to produce only technical graduates from our universities? i don't think so. we need left and right brained folks studying together. it widens their horizons (lord knows, we have folks with narrow horizons around) and fosters innovation. in college, it's often stimulating and inspiring to discuss difficult problems with others that seem wired to think in a different manner. not so much on ppp. in any model, i will emphasize again the need for admission selectivity. as a teaching assistant at a large public university, i tried to teach chemistry to kids who didn't understand fractions. that's not fair to any of the students or to society. it supports unrealistic expectations and it wastes time and resources. There are several things off about your post but I'll just hit one. The idea is not that we don't need liberal arts educated people, and in fact, I'm willing to posit that someone with a good liberal arts pedigree (not necessarily major, but at least well-read and thought out) will make an excellent scientist. The problem is that we have an enormous need for scientists, and American students don't want to do the work required to fill that need. Most students opt for the Communications degree or its equivalent and have nothing useful to offer society except a load of student debt and a warm body in their parents' basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices.... 8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola 8. Sociology 7. Fine Arts 6. Education 5. Religious Studies/Theology 4. Hospitality/Tourism 3. Nutrition 2. Psychology 1. Communications My wife has a degree in psychology from one of the better schools in the country. Even she admits it's worthless. Of course she has turned it into a successful career -- she now runs a drug and alcohol rehab center. Not the most glamorous work and it isn't the most exceptional of pay, but it's much higher than average. She's just proof that hard working people will be successful and lazy people won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 My wife has a degree in psychology from one of the better schools in the country. Even she admits it's worthless. Of course she has turned it into a successful career -- she now runs a drug and alcohol rehab center. Not the most glamorous work and it isn't the most exceptional of pay, but it's much higher than average. She's just proof that hard working people will be successful and lazy people won't. I'll see that degree in psychology, and raise you a degree in Astronomy. "Oh, you have a degree in astronomy? Can you do my horoscope for me? I'm a Pisces." Beyond useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Yeah... the problem is that all degrees are not equal; and if we're being completely honest most folks who go to liberal arts schools aren't getting the backgrounds necessary in math and science to go out into the world and get the sorts of jobs that the emerging technologies economy needs. Almost none of our kids are. Those courses tend to be hard, and our kids don't do hard and challenging. They do basket weaving and binge drinking. And most of the kids in college don't even deserve to be there. Most never deserved to graduate high school. To segue into a teachers' need to go to college, I don't disagree; however the way things are done today, it would almost be better if they didn't go. A degree in education is a worthless degree. Teachers need to have degrees in the subjects that they teach; with a pay hierarchy dictated by the actual value of that degree in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees? You keep picking the outliers and ignore the vast majority. You see that right? A poly sci major (I can't believe that of all the degrees, you picked that one) is not qualified to run the fry basket at McDonalds. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were exceptionally smart, incredibly motivated people who went to the best schools in the country--of course they did OK. Romney is from one of the richest and most connected families on the planet--his college degree is not why he succeeded. But your average middle class family poly sci major from Canisius? Niagara? Bona? The degree is not taking them far. Edited July 8, 2013 by John Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 http://online.wsj.co...8.html?mod=e2fb As lawmakers in Washington remain at loggerheads over the student-debt crisis, Oregon's legislature is moving ahead with a plan to enable students to attend state schools with no money down. In return, under one proposal, the students would agree to pay into a special fund 3% of their salaries annually for 24 years. The plan, called "Pay it Forward, Pay it Back," would create a fund that students would draw from and eventually pay into—potentially bypassing traditional education lenders and the interest rates they charge. The state would likely borrow for the fund's seed money, which could exceed $9 billion, but the program's designers intend it to become self-sustaining. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure this will work but at least some ideas are being floated. Generally speaking, finding a good fix to this issue is important. The problem has never been access to cheap debt. This plan does nothing to curb the most glaring problem of for-profit education costs and irresponsible lending. Late night TV has convinced millions of low-income families that a degree from ITT Tech will instantly guarantee them a $50,000 salary, an SUV and either a mountain bike or a kayak. False. The rate of loan default at for profit education institutions paints a pretty clear picture. If the government were to stop backing loans to for-profit schools that would slow the bleeding. The cost of private education is also rising out of control, but the default figures are still relatively mild compared to for-profit as mom and dad are footing the bill for most students at private schools. Market forces should counteract the automatic 5% annual tuition increases. Community colleges and state schools remain viable substitutes and structural employment shortages in the skilled trades may lure prospective college students. The cultural premium on a college education is the biggest obstacle to sensible education costs. Its better to have a BS and wait tables at AppleBee's than work with your hands for twice the pay for now. How long can that trend persist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees? For every Romney, Bush, Clinton, and Obama there are 40,000 baristas who can't pay for their college loan; because they either weren't connected or didn't have the necessary intellegence, work ethic, and drive to get ahead with those degrees. Because that's the thing: those degrees, while possibly representing a better rounded education, don't require any degree of expertise in math and the sciences which high paying tech jobs require. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees? Why do you continue to put up posts that are easy to smack around? In addition to the beatings administered by others, do we also need to point out the statistical irrelevancy of someone getting a liberal arts degree from an Ivy League school in 1960-1975 to someone getting that liberal arts degree from an average school in 2013, and coming out with a lot more debt and more uncertain job prospects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices.... 8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola 8. Sociology 7. Fine Arts 6. Education 5. Religious Studies/Theology 4. Hospitality/Tourism 3. Nutrition 2. Psychology 1. Communications And then today I see this article... Majors that are Good Bets for Finding a Job 5 listed and it includes, similar to the one above... Elementary Education Communications Psychology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 And then today I see this article... Majors that are Good Bets for Finding a Job 5 listed and it includes, similar to the one above... Elementary Education Communications Psychology Finding a job and ROI are two very different concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Finding a job and ROI are two very different concepts. Oh I understand that, but just find it funny that it looks like conflicting info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Oh I understand that, but just find it funny that it looks like conflicting info. Psych and communications are pretty broad and can land someone an entry level spot in just about any large company. I know people working in finance who majored in Spanish, history and all sorts of other liberal arts degrees. A degree is really just an indicator that someone is motivated, can learn and is willing to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Why do you continue to put up posts that are easy to smack around? In addition to the beatings administered by others, do we also need to point out the statistical irrelevancy of someone getting a liberal arts degree from an Ivy League school in 1960-1975 to someone getting that liberal arts degree from an average school in 2013, and coming out with a lot more debt and more uncertain job prospects? it's not that they're easy to slap around, it's that they're so counterintuitive to most of the mindsets here that they feel compelled to attempt to quell them. there are plenty of recent humanities and social science grads who have succeeded financially and professionally. many went to top schools but i didn't realize that there was a stipulation placed on which schools the students attended attached to the assertion that nonscience majors are wasting their time and money. some are, some aren't. i contend that much has to do with their innate ability and drive. the solution here is more likely tightening admission policies (and perhaps not considering schools with poor placement records- not that i like roi calculation in education but they exist for universities, too) than limiting majors. i contend that you're concentrating on the wrong problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 it's not that they're easy to slap around, it's that they're so counterintuitive to most of the mindsets here that they feel compelled to attempt to quell them. there are plenty of recent humanities and social science grads who have succeeded financially and professionally. many went to top schools but i didn't realize that there was a stipulation placed on which schools the students attended attached to the assertion that nonscience majors are wasting their time and money. some are, some aren't. i contend that much has to do with their innate ability and drive. the solution here is more likely tightening admission policies (and perhaps not considering schools with poor placement records- not that i like roi calculation in education but they exist for universities, too) than limiting majors. i contend that you're concentrating on the wrong problem. A 2.7 GPA Electrical Engineer from Penn State is getting a good job. A 2.7 GPA Poly Sci major from Penn State is folding jeans at the Gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts