Chandler#81 Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 Bobby Chandler was a great reciever. Great hands. He led the NFL in receptions from 1975-1977 with 176. I was very happy he got a chance to win a superbowl before his career ended. He was my favorite player as a kid. He died way too young. RIP Bobby This!! : (
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I think he IS a game changer. 40 catches and 6 td's every year for a TE is great. He had just as many TD's as Stevie Johnson and CJ last year. Runs tough routes, great hands, huge target at 6 foot 7. You're right about the young WR's and the need for experienced targets out there. He's going to be EJ's first NFL TD pass......... A consistantly favorable match up for the bills since his acquisition. A nice find and seems like they handled his contract situation well to keep him.
CSBill Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I think he has been one of the more under-appreciated Bills the past few years. He is consistent, makes catches, and scores touchdowns. The one knock on him--according to the professional scouts (I guess, I don't have the expertise or film to evaluate it)--is his blocking ability. But I've read a few times where he has improved in that. Anyhow, having him back is a big plus. Hopefully at full strength and ready to go.
BillsVet Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 I think he has been one of the more under-appreciated Bills the past few years. He is consistent, makes catches, and scores touchdowns. The one knock on him--according to the professional scouts (I guess, I don't have the expertise or film to evaluate it)--is his blocking ability. But I've read a few times where he has improved in that. Anyhow, having him back is a big plus. Hopefully at full strength and ready to go. Well, for a HC and OC who want their receivers to be faster, Chandler doesn't exactly fit. He's a Buddy guy, not a Marrone/Hackett/Whaley guy. I wouldn't be surprised to see them feature him less in their offense between the 20s in favor of more WR's given his lack of speed.
buffaloboyinATL Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Hooray, this is great news--though I still wish we had another decent TE to complement Chandler so we could run some double TE packages like certain other evil teams (used) to do. I wonder if Dickerson or Gragg can step up to play such a role this year? I am hoping that Gragg becomes the guy on the other side. I think he has a pretty high ceiling.
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Well, for a HC and OC who want their receivers to be faster, Chandler doesn't exactly fit. He's a Buddy guy, not a Marrone/Hackett/Whaley guy. I wouldn't be surprised to see them feature him less in their offense between the 20s in favor of more WR's given his lack of speed. He's got 4.76 speed which, while not blazing, isn't turtle speed. He's a big reliable target which would help a rookie QB out a lot.
BillsVet Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 He's got 4.76 speed which, while not blazing, isn't turtle speed. He's a big reliable target which would help a rookie QB out a lot. Is that what you think he'll run when he's recovered from his ACL surgery? Or are you going from combine results 6 years ago? I know most people like to quantify things with statistics or combine results, but when I watch games I see someone who isn't getting behind defenders. It's not his game and the current staff seems intent on improving team speed. Chandler's going to be even slower post-surgery than he was in 2011-12.
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Is that what you think he'll run when he's recovered from his ACL surgery? Or are you going from combine results 6 years ago? I know most people like to quantify things with statistics or combine results, but when I watch games I see someone who isn't getting behind defenders. It's not his game and the current staff seems intent on improving team speed. Chandler's going to be even slower post-surgery than he was in 2011-12. Haven't had the chance to time him recently. He could be just as fast as before. But the speed thing is about crating mismatches and Chandler's size creates a mismatch.
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Is that what you think he'll run when he's recovered from his ACL surgery? Or are you going from combine results 6 years ago? I know most people like to quantify things with statistics or combine results, but when I watch games I see someone who isn't getting behind defenders. It's not his game and the current staff seems intent on improving team speed. Chandler's going to be even slower post-surgery than he was in 2011-12. ill agree with docs follow up that its about mismatches. ill also say that i hope they are considering more than JUST speed, because using speed as the only thing that matters is nonsense... while its a great attribute to value, its just one of many that can be used productively. if they are going to black ball a productive player just because hes average speed... well... chandler and stevie are out the window and we are left with about 12 catches combined remaining on the roster. i have to believe they will use him and use him effectively, even if they keep an eye out for a chance to improve the position in the along the way.
JohnC Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) Is that what you think he'll run when he's recovered from his ACL surgery? Or are you going from combine results 6 years ago? I know most people like to quantify things with statistics or combine results, but when I watch games I see someone who isn't getting behind defenders. It's not his game and the current staff seems intent on improving team speed. Chandler's going to be even slower post-surgery than he was in 2011-12. Chandler is not going to get behind defenders because that is not the type of receiver he is, or most TEs are. He is primarily an underneath receiver who will be more effective with the speed receivers added to the roster. Chandler runs good routes and he has terrific hands. You rarely see him drop a pass. Another asset is that with his height and size he is adept at coaching TDs passes when the offense is near the goal line. The offense is going to be playing to his strengths, not his weaknesses. With better wideouts there should be more open space inside for him to catch the short and medium range pases i.e. the type of routes that Kolb favors. Edited July 5, 2013 by JohnC
BillsVet Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Chandler is not going to get behind defenders because that is not the type of receiver he is, or most TEs are. He is primarily an underneath receiver who will be more effective with the speed receivers added to the roster. Chandler runs good routes and he has terrific hands. You rarely see him drop a pass. Another asset is that with his height and size he is adept at coaching TDs passes when the offense is near the goal line. The offense is going to be playing to his strengths, not his weaknesses. With better wideouts there should be more open space inside for him to catch the short and medium range pases i.e. the type of routes that Kolb favors. Teams are indeed taking TE's that can run by people and eschewing the slower footed types who are safety valve types like Chandler. Nothing against Chandler, but with teams playing more Cover 2, having a guy be able to run the seam and attack secondaries is important. The Bills haven't had that in forever and that won't change in 2013. He's coming off an ACL tear and will be inhibited early on, perhaps most of the season. Unfortunately, there's nothing behind him and definitely not anyone adept at catching passes. This is a position that hasn't been adequately addressed because they were too busy drafting defensive players to facilitate converting from a Cover-2 to a 30 front and back to a 40 front defense.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 ill agree with docs follow up that its about mismatches. ill also say that i hope they are considering more than JUST speed, because using speed as the only thing that matters is nonsense... while its a great attribute to value, its just one of many that can be used productively. Not to mention (never understood that expression btw) that when you spread the field with 5-6 skill players, you don't need every one of them to possess speed. It makes as much if not more sense to have a nice mix of a few different skill sets.
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Teams are indeed taking TE's that can run by people and eschewing the slower footed types who are safety valve types like Chandler. Nothing against Chandler, but with teams playing more Cover 2, having a guy be able to run the seam and attack secondaries is important. The Bills haven't had that in forever and that won't change in 2013. He's coming off an ACL tear and will be inhibited early on, perhaps most of the season. Unfortunately, there's nothing behind him and definitely not anyone adept at catching passes. This is a position that hasn't been adequately addressed because they were too busy drafting defensive players to facilitate converting from a Cover-2 to a 30 front and back to a 40 front defense. They have no one proven at the NFL level, but Gragg has TE size and WR speed and has the ability to run the seam and attack secondaries.
geggytah Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 The ACL doesn't need to rebuild. The graft tunnel needs to heal. Depends on the type of surgery that was elected by Chandler/his doctors. Option 1 is to use part of the Patella tendon with attached bone to replace the ACL. Option 2 is use use multiple threads of the hamstring to replace the ACL. Option 3 is the cadaver. From the research that I've read (I recently tore my ACL), the cadaver option is NOT recommended for athletes because the strength of the cadaver's ACL is unknown, plus your body could reject the foreign object. There doesn't seem to be conclusive evidence which of the options is better at this point, although you do tend to heal fast with option 1 because the only healing that needs to occur is bone to bone since the patella tendon was never detached, plus the hamstring doesn't need to have it's strength rebuilt.
Doc Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Depends on the type of surgery that was elected by Chandler/his doctors. Option 1 is to use part of the Patella tendon with attached bone to replace the ACL. Option 2 is use use multiple threads of the hamstring to replace the ACL. Option 3 is the cadaver. From the research that I've read (I recently tore my ACL), the cadaver option is NOT recommended for athletes because the strength of the cadaver's ACL is unknown, plus your body could reject the foreign object. There doesn't seem to be conclusive evidence which of the options is better at this point, although you do tend to heal fast with option 1 because the only healing that needs to occur is bone to bone since the patella tendon was never detached, plus the hamstring doesn't need to have it's strength rebuilt. Option 1 is the first choice unless there is something wrong with the patellar tendon. Not sure what is #2.
JohnC Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Teams are indeed taking TE's that can run by people and eschewing the slower footed types who are safety valve types like Chandler. Nothing against Chandler, but with teams playing more Cover 2, having a guy be able to run the seam and attack secondaries is important. The Bills haven't had that in forever and that won't change in 2013. He's coming off an ACL tear and will be inhibited early on, perhaps most of the season. Unfortunately, there's nothing behind him and definitely not anyone adept at catching passes. This is a position that hasn't been adequately addressed because they were too busy drafting defensive players to facilitate converting from a Cover-2 to a 30 front and back to a 40 front defense. Chandler is what he is: a dependable short to medium range route runner who is not going to out run his coverage, something that most TEs can't do. What many teams resort to is spreading the field with multiple receiver sets that often don't include a TE in that formation. If you want a TE who can get past the coverage then get in line with the majority of other teams searching for such a big play receiving TE. The Patriots were unique offensively when they built a good chunk of their passing game around their two superb TEs. Their wideouts were average at best with more emphasis placed on Welker (now departed) to run the short interiour routes. The Bills can't duplicate such a TE centric offense because they simply don't have and haven't ever had that type of quality TEs. I agree with you that the Bills for a very long time haven't effectively addressed the TE position in the draft. What's new about that? Even with the positions they have drafted for they still have missed with a high percentage of their draft picks. The central drafting weakness isn't about any particular position so much it is about evaluating prospects in general, regardless of position. Teams that draft well and make a high percentage of their picks count can address their remaining position needs throught free agnecy. With the Bills you create a hole and then go back and refill it. It is a cycle of ineptitude that maybe will be slowed down with this new regime.
Doc Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Chandler is what he is: a dependable short to medium range route runner who is not going to out run his coverage, something that most TEs can't do. What many teams resort to is spreading the field with multiple receiver sets that often don't include a TE in that formation. If you want a TE who can get past the coverage then get in line with the majority of other teams searching for such a big play receiving TE. The Patriots were unique offensively when they built a good chunk of their passing game around their two superb TEs. Their wideouts were average at best with more emphasis placed on Welker (now departed) to run the short interiour routes. The Bills can't duplicate such a TE centric offense because they simply don't have and haven't ever had that type of quality TEs. I agree with you that the Bills for a very long time haven't effectively addressed the TE position in the draft. What's new about that? Even with the positions they have drafted for they still have missed with a high percentage of their draft picks. The central drafting weakness isn't about any particular position so much it is about evaluating prospects in general, regardless of position. Teams that draft well and make a high percentage of their picks count can address their remaining position needs throught free agnecy. With the Bills you create a hole and then go back and refill it. It is a cycle of ineptitude that maybe will be slowed down with this new regime. The Pats got lucky (for a time) with their TE selections in that 2010 draft. Prior to that they (and Belichick with the Browns) had drafted or signed many TEs with limited success. But that luck came at a price. Gronk doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy, which is why he dropped to the 2nd, and likewise Hernandez' pre-draft concerns have come home to roost. Hopefully they can get similar luck with Gragg, but if not, I expect TE to be high on the list next draft.
JohnC Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 The Pats got lucky (for a time) with their TE selections in that 2010 draft. Prior to that they (and Belichick with the Browns) had drafted or signed many TEs with limited success. But that luck came at a price. Gronk doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy, which is why he dropped to the 2nd, and likewise Hernandez' pre-draft concerns have come home to roost. Hopefully they can get similar luck with Gragg, but if not, I expect TE to be high on the list next draft. If Gronk and AH never play again you have to acknowledge that they got excellent production from these drafted players. The coaching staff smartly and uniquely taylored their offense to maximize the talents of their TEs. Whether or not these two players ever play again they still got more production from that position than the Bills have ever gotten out of their TEs in more than a half century of being in the NFL.
Doc Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 If Gronk and AH never play again you have to acknowledge that they got excellent production from these drafted players. The coaching staff smartly and uniquely taylored their offense to maximize the talents of their TEs. Whether or not these two players ever play again they still got more production from that position than the Bills have ever gotten out of their TEs in more than a half century of being in the NFL. They got 1 excellent year from each, a good one from Gronk, and 3 mediocre ones. In Hernandez's case, it wasn't nearly worth it. In Gronk's, it's arguable.
JohnC Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 They got 1 excellent year from each, a good one from Gronk, and 3 mediocre ones. In Hernandez's case, it wasn't nearly worth it. In Gronk's, it's arguable. I'll repeat what I said in the prior post: They got more production out of their TEs over the past few years than the Bills have gotten out of their TEs in a half century of playing. I'm aware that AH will probably never play pro ball again. From a physical standpoint it is an open question whether Gronk will ever be what he was. But even given the short duration of playing the team got maximum production from a position that the Bills haven't gotten much production from over its history of playing. With respect to Chandler he is a productive TE. He has terrific hands and he runs good routes. He is far from being a dynamic player but he is still a solid player He was a good pickup for us. A few more good value pickups like him will help bolster the roster and make this team more competitive. .
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