Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 The obvious answer is that I knew Jauron was a crappy coach. By any standard, AH was a very good TE, and no one, except the conflators here, knew he was or would be a killer. Maybe not a killer, but he certainly was a bad seed with a penchant for trouble. Which more than a few teams knew pre-draft. At the very least, they should have inserted language recouping money if he were lost to the team because of legal matters.
bills44 Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 By any standard, AH was a very good TE Sure, other than his inability to block.
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 You apparently didn't read the timeline very carefully. The only incidents I said the Patriots could possibly know about were in red. At least 12 teams blacklisted the guy. Why do you think that is? Are you saying that just because charges were not brought that no team knew about the pre-draft incidents in Gainesville? The only other item I highlighted in red was the incidents in Hermosa Beach. This happened before his contract extension. Are you saying that it's unbelievable that the Patriots knew about these incidents? Are you saying that just because charges aren't brought that teams are unaware of these incidents? It certainly seems you are saying this, which is crazy. There is no reason to believe the pats suspected he was or would be a killer when they extended him, no matter how hard you retrospectively want to pin that on them. What is the point in repeating that a minority of teams had "reportedly" blackballed him? They knew he was a budding killer too? And the majority of the league's teams that didn't blackball him? What of them? Is the extension of the contract related to the killing last month in a causative way? Maybe not a killer, but he certainly was a bad seed with a penchant for trouble. Which more than a few teams knew pre-draft. At the very least, they should have inserted language recouping money if he were lost to the team because of legal matters. Was he arrested between being drafted and extended? Did he fail any drug policy? Why are you worried about them recouping their bonus money?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 The obvious answer is that I knew Jauron was a crappy coach. By any standard, AH was a very good TE, and no one, except the conflators here, knew he was or would be a killer. If you can't do justice to the discussion, you shouldn't participate. I and others have already said that there was no way that anyone could predict that Hernandez would become a murderer. Re-read the thread.
bills44 Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 The Strawman is making a few appearances in this thread...
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Was he arrested between being drafted and extended? Did he fail any drug policy? Why are you worried about them recouping their bonus money? It's okay to say they made a mistake, doc. It's not like there weren't warning signs all over the place.
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 If you can't do justice to the discussion, you shouldn't participate. I and others have already said that there was no way that anyone could predict that Hernandez would become a murderer. Re-read the thread. Do it justice? Anyway, if no one, including that team, could have predicted what was to come, what is your problem with that team extending him? And why did you say all of this?: But IMO a lot of people here strangely forgiving of New England's decision to draft this guy and then extend him. As I said earlier, this is an organization that cheated for years. Why would we trust that they simply didn't know about all the red flags? It's more plausible to me that they decided to pretend that those flags didn't exist Strangely forgiving of them not being able to predict the future? Red flags of murder? If you had said anything at that time suggesting that they were unwise in extending him, I would give you all the credit in the world for your prescience. But few eyebrows were raised back then anywhere. Now you are baffled that some would now NOT fault the pats for "ignoring" red flags that he would commit an act like this. It's okay to say they made a mistake, doc. It's not like there weren't warning signs all over the place. So if they hadn't extended his contract, he wouldn't have killed anyone?
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) If you can't do justice to the discussion, you shouldn't participate. I and others have already said that there was no way that anyone could predict that Hernandez would become a murderer. Re-read the thread. Unfortunately doc has stated that they either knew or should've known about his alleged part in last years murders. Part of the trouble of a serious discussion with people on a message board. Waters get muddied. I'm not excusing the pats for taking the risk- they took it, it blew up in their faces. I'm not sure what am angry post from me does about that. I am annoyed by the folks using hindsight to pile on when we regularly have threads about how we should've drafted Hernandez, should've kept and extended marshawn (drugs, weapons, hit and run), we should've traded for talib, we should've gotten or kept dozens of risky guys. We traded for Hargrove with documented mental issues and drug issues and he assaulted a cop. Was it luck nothing worse happened? I'm also not going to pretend no one on our roster uses drugs, that no ones thrown punches, no one owns weapons they shouldn't..... Where's the outrage for how Seattle is building with guys like marshawn (drugs, weapons, hit and run, possible issues in Oakland in his past growing up) or Percy harvin who as a teammate of Hernandez choke slammed a coach and was banned from high school sports? It's an ugly reality of the nfl. I don't like it on any team and I certainly don't want it on mine but I'm also not going to pretend anything made the Hernandez situation terribly unique until the shootings. Edited July 5, 2013 by NoSaint
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 So if they hadn't extended his contract, he wouldn't have killed anyone? Apparently not, since he's tied to the shootings last July.
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Unfortunately doc has stated that they either knew or should've known about his alleged part in last years murders. Part of the trouble of a serious discussion with people on a message board. Waters get muddied. I'm not excusing the pats for taking the risk- they took it, it blew up in their faces. I'm not sure what am angry post from me does about that. I am annoyed by the folks using hindsight to pile on when we regularly have threads about how we should've drafted Hernandez, should've kept and extended marshawn (drugs, weapons, hit and run), we should've traded for talib, we should've gotten or kept dozens of risky guys. I'm also not going to pretend no one on our roster uses drugs, that no ones thrown punches, no one owns weapons they shouldn't..... Where's the outrage for how Seattle is building with guys like marshawn (drugs, weapons, hit and run, possible issues in Oakland in his past growing up) or Percy harvin who as a teammate of Hernandez choke slammed a coach and was banned from high school sports? It's an ugly reality of the nfl. I don't like it on any team and I certainly don't want it on mine but I'm also not going to pretend anything made the Hernandez situation until the shootings. All great points NoSaint. If AH was a Viking or a Colt, there would be a 3 page thread and done.
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Unfortunately doc has stated that they either knew or should've known about his alleged part in last years murders. Part of the trouble of a serious discussion with people on a message board. Waters get muddied. Hold on there. I didn't say they should have known about his part in the murders last year. Just that the kid had been a bad seed and had they followed him for awhile, again given his pre-draft question marks, more than likely would have found some troubling things. To say "there's no way for them to have had an idea" doesn't wash, given all the stuff we're hearing about now.
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Apparently not, since he's tied to the shootings last July. Oh, that's right--and the pats should have known that then. I mean, all the signs were there that he was the guy. Hold on there. I didn't say they should have known about his part in the murders last year. Just that the kid had been a bad seed and had they followed him for awhile, again given his pre-draft question marks, more than likely would have found some troubling things. To say "there's no way for them to have had an idea" doesn't wash, given all the stuff we're hearing about now. Of the things you are convinced they knew back then, what would have been the deal breaker for extending him?
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 All great points NoSaint. If AH was a Viking or a Colt, there would be a 3 page thread and done. And this is based on...what?
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Hold on there. I didn't say they should have known about his part in the murders last year. Just that the kid had been a bad seed and had they followed him for awhile, again given his pre-draft question marks, more than likely would have found some troubling things. To say "there's no way for them to have had an idea" doesn't wash, given all the stuff we're hearing about now. If I mischaracterized it, I apologize. It seemed to me you were faulting them for extending after that possible incident. Which in my head implied "knew or should've known" otherwise, why mention it if you don't think it should've been known
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Anyway, if no one, including that team, could have predicted what was to come, what is your problem with that team extending him? And why did you say all of this?: Strangely forgiving of them not being able to predict the future? Red flags of murder? If you had said anything at that time suggesting that they were unwise in extending him, I would give you all the credit in the world for your prescience. But few eyebrows were raised back then anywhere. Now you are baffled that some would now NOT fault the pats for "ignoring" red flags that he would commit an act like this. You know WEO, I know you're an intelligent person so your inability to grasp conversations is troubling when you consider the possible explanations for your incomprehension. Are you not comprehending that there is a vast range between being a murderer and not being a murderer? Does the fact that Hernandez was very violent twice before he was drafted mean nothing to you? Do you equate shooting a gun with a failed drug test for marijuana? As to the bolded above, I don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on screening, security, and background checks for prospective NFL players. Why would you possibly make the argument that I should have known better about Hernandez when I'm not an NFL security person? I look forward to your answer.
Doc Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Oh, that's right--and the pats should have known that then. I mean, all the signs were there that he was the guy. Again I never said they'd have known that. Just answering your question. Of the things you are convinced they knew back then, what would have been the deal breaker for extending him? The pre-draft stuff. The domestic disturbance. Gang ties/circle of friends. Talking to Welker and Light about what a prick he was. Hell even his lack of durability. They extended him with 2 years left on his contract. They screwed up big time. Like Jauron was a crappy coach, AH was a crappy human being.
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 And this is based on...what? Please... Anyway, of the red flags that you insist the pats knew back than, which, specifically, should have been the dealbreaker(s) against extending him?
bills44 Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 And this is based on...what? One thing for sure, if the Pats* weren't involved, we wouldn't have a certain "Bills fan" chiming in and defending the Pats* every 5 posts.
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 You know WEO, I know you're an intelligent person so your inability to grasp conversations is troubling when you consider the possible explanations for your incomprehension. Are you not comprehending that there is a vast range between being a murderer and not being a murderer? Does the fact that Hernandez was very violent twice before he was drafted mean nothing to you? Do you equate shooting a gun with a failed drug test for marijuana? As to the bolded above, I don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on screening, security, and background checks for prospective NFL players. Why would you possibly make the argument that I should have known better about Hernandez when I'm not an NFL security person? I look forward to your answer. You certainly are a moving target. I will answer by asking what I asked doc--what specific events between draft and extending should have told them not to extend?
4merper4mer Posted July 5, 2013 Posted July 5, 2013 Please... Anyway, of the red flags that you insist the pats knew back than, which, specifically, should have been the dealbreaker(s) against extending him? Two guys shot dead by someone in a silver SUV like the one Hernandez was driving right after they got in a fight with Hernandez? Or maybe you think the Pats and law enforcement were completely clueless about his presence at that particular club. On a separate note I am trying to sell a few things. Would you like to buy this:
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