Mr. WEO Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 WEO, I have to admit I don't understand your angle here -- you continue to insist we give specific information about what the Pats* did or didn't know before extending AH last August, when obviously we aren't going to have those details. What we DO have is the ability to logically speculate based upon the following: -- NFL locker rooms are a pretty tight-knit group -- Belichick is a control freak Former HC Mularkey talked about how much information coaches receive regarding what players are up to. Multiple reports have come out from AH's teammates. The Pats* no longer have strong leaders in that locker room, with the possible exception of Brady -- and how much does Mr. Giselle Bundchen really care about what's happening with the other guys when they're not practicing or playing? As I and SJBF have opined, it's foolish to think the Pats* extended AH believing he was a solid citizen and good guy. They took a calculated risk they hoped wouldn't blow up in their faces before they had one or two more Lombardis in the house. They were wrong. My "angle" is that a few guys "in the locker room" not liking the guy is miles away from what you and SJBF are insisting--which is that the pats knew at the time of the new contract, that AH was involved in criminal behavior and that knowledge should have prevented them from re-signing him. I can't make any simpler for you how silly your argument is. How can you convince me that "they should have known" (or in SJBF's case, that they actually knew) that AH was an actual criminal, when all you can cite are a few team mates current comments that they didn't like him and Mularkeys comments about coaches? You may want to believe the patriots knew or should have known AH would turn out to be a killer but you simply can't produce any cogent argument as to why you believe this. How the other boys liked him or not is not an argument. You really don't get that??
Matt in KC Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Ammunition from the same caliber gun used to kill his friend Odin Lloyd was found in a search of an apartment leased by former New England Patriot Aaron Hernandez. Latest from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/04/justice/massachusetts-hernandez-search/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
JohnC Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) WEO, I have to admit I don't understand your angle here -- you continue to insist we give specific information about what the Pats* did or didn't know before extending AH last August, when obviously we aren't going to have those details. What we DO have is the ability to logically speculate based upon the following: -- NFL locker rooms are a pretty tight-knit group -- Belichick is a control freak Former HC Mularkey talked about how much information coaches receive regarding what players are up to. Multiple reports have come out from AH's teammates. The Pats* no longer have strong leaders in that locker room, with the possible exception of Brady -- and how much does Mr. Giselle Bundchen really care about what's happening with the other guys when they're not practicing or playing? As I and SJBF have opined, it's foolish to think the Pats* extended AH believing he was a solid citizen and good guy. They took a calculated risk they hoped wouldn't blow up in their faces before they had one or two more Lombardis in the house. They were wrong. All teams draft players who have risky issues associated with them. Each team makes their own calculation as to whether drafting the player or signing the player is worth the risk. The Bills signed Da'Rick Rogers as an UDFA. His talent rating on most boards was in the first or second round level. Not one team in the league was willing to draft him or sign him after the draft as a free agent other than the Bills. The Lions drafted Titus Young in the first or second round. It was well known prior to the draft that he had behavioral and emotional issues. The Lions were enticed by his talent level and drafted him. It didn't take long for the team to grow tired of his volatile personality. It is apparent now from witnessing his erratic behavior that he has serious mental health problems. Many people are arguing that the Patriot organization should have known about his off-field criminality. Why should they? While he was with the Pats he wasn't arrested or involved in any improper activities that were brought to the attention of the organization. AH wasn't a warm and embracing personality in the locker roon, but he didn't do anything that warranted the attention of team officials. He kept to himself and associated with his own people. So what? Does anyone really believe that if the organization had an inkling that AH was a cold-blooded killer or capable of doing such evil deeds that they would have signed him to such a lucrative contract? Does anyone really believe that if Kraft or BB knew what was going on behind the scenes with AH that he would still be an employee in that organization? When the organization belatedly learned of what he did or was accused of they did the right thing by quickly cutting him. What more can they have done? There is a sanctimoneous notion being promoted on this topic that the Bills and other teams use a higher standard in selecting players. That is nonsense. All teams make judgments and take calculated risks when selecting players. Sometimes the person you think is not a risk becaomes an off the field liability. And then sometimes the player you assumed was going to be a risk becomes an off the field asset. Edited July 4, 2013 by JohnC
NoSaint Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 You're getting a bit of a free ride here. You have to be much more explicit. Exactly what do you presume the pats knew about (things his team mates and the press knew nothing about until now) before they offered him a new contract? I am going easy because I realize just like they can't produce exactly what the pats knew I can't produce what they didnt know. So getting into a knock down fight over it will likely just be us running in circles. I don't think they had any idea on the big stuff even if they thought he was a tool in the lockerroom, and had terrible associates around town. Like John said, teams take risks and all have different formulas and info. As SJBF points out, a third of teams blackballed him at the draft, but as ill point out two thirds didnt. After proving he could play in the nfl, while not considerably changing his off field risks I'd guess many a team would take him in free agency.
Alaska Darin Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Many people are arguing that the Patriot organization should have known about his off-field criminality. Why should they? Every NFL teams has investigators that check out the backgrounds of players they're interested in drafting. It works pretty much the same way that DoD and the USG does security clearances. Does that mean mistakes aren't made? No. Does it mean the Patriots didn't know that Hernandez had a questionable background? Absolutely not. I think the Patriots knew, just like they knew with Randy Moss, Haynesworth, etc and figured that the strength and character of the organization would help get/keep Hernandez on the right track. It blew up in their face. **** happens.
bills44 Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 WEO, I have to admit I don't understand your angle here There is a sanctimoneous notion being promoted on this topic that the Bills and other teams use a higher standard in selecting players. That is nonsense. All teams make judgments and take calculated risks when selecting players. Sometimes the person you think is not a risk becaomes an off the field liability. And then sometimes the player you assumed was going to be a risk becomes an off the field asset. Of course every team drafts players with a less-than-stellar background. However, once Lynch's off-field problems resurfaced after his selection by the Bills, the Bills were criticized, even ridiculed, by some here for drafting Lynch. Probably by some of the same people who defend the Pats* in this thread (and others). Every NFL teams has investigators that check out the backgrounds of players they're interested in drafting. It works pretty much the same way that DoD and the USG does security clearances. Does that mean mistakes aren't made? No. Does it mean the Patriots didn't know that Hernandez had a questionable background? Absolutely not. I think the Patriots knew, just like they knew with Randy Moss, Haynesworth, etc and figured that the strength and character of the organization would help get/keep Hernandez on the right track. It blew up in their face. **** happens. exactly. Enough with the "Pats* couldn't have known that Hernandez was a shitbag" nonsense. There were enough red flags raised due to his antics in college.
NoSaint Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Of course every team drafts players with a less-than-stellar background. However, once Lynch's off-field problems resurfaced after his selection by the Bills, the Bills were criticized, even ridiculed, by some here for drafting Lynch. Probably by some of the same people who defend the Pats* in this thread (and others). exactly. Enough with the "Pats* couldn't have known that Hernandez was a shitbag" nonsense. There were enough red flags raised due to his antics in college. Whoa whoa whoa- the bills were ridiculed for drafting lynch due to his red flags? Maybe I'm crazy but I recall the pitchforks coming out because we traded him instead of keeping him. I also believe the ridicule of the choice was "another first round running back" not "player with character questions." I've been one of what I remember as very few that are quite alright with the trade and laughed when people moaned about marv taking choir boys only and nix continuing that trend.
thebandit27 Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Whoa whoa whoa- the bills were ridiculed for drafting lynch due to his red flags? Maybe I'm crazy but I recall the pitchforks coming out because we traded him instead of keeping him. I also believe the ridicule of the choice was "another first round running back" not "player with character questions." I've been one of what I remember as very few that are quite alright with the trade and laughed when people moaned about marv taking choir boys only and nix continuing that trend. That argument about Marv was crazy anyway. He drafted Whitner, Lynch, Hardy...every year it was at least 1 top pick with an off-field issue. And you're right about the criticism; it was largely ue to the positional selection, not the player
Doc Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I'd think that if you are contemplating giving a huge deal to a player, especially a guy who many teams had as undraftable, you'd want to hire a PI to investigate him for a little while. Saying "we didn't/couldn't have known" is a cop-out.
Beerball Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I'd think that if you are contemplating giving a huge deal to a player, especially a guy who many teams had as undraftable, you'd want to hire a PI to investigate him for a little while. Saying "we didn't/couldn't have known" is a cop-out. Haven't been keeping up...did someone in the ne organization say that?
NoSaint Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) I'd think that if you are contemplating giving a huge deal to a player, especially a guy who many teams had as undraftable, you'd want to hire a PI to investigate him for a little while. Saying "we didn't/couldn't have known" is a cop-out. This is a prime "known what?" moment Without defining that terminology, the post is as effective as if you just banged your head on the keyboard a few times. Not that I'm not also guilty of those posts as well. Edited July 4, 2013 by NoSaint
Prickly Pete Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) No, just the Pats* apologists. I'm no Pats lover. I actually think it's the opposite. If AH had played for the Arizona Cardinals, there wouldn't be anywhere near the criticism of the organization that's on this board. The NFL is filled with PED using, painkiller using, recreational drug using, alcohol drinking, gang associating, violent crime committing, douchebag acting, 'roid raging, bar fighting, hyper-aggressive, bullying, not so bright guys. I would bet there is at least one (probably more) player that fits that exact description on every team. This one murdered someone (allegedly), so they released him. Edited July 4, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
Canadian Bills Fan Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Keeps getting more wierd... Secret apartment belonging to AH searched and more evidence has been found http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/07/03/aaron-hernandez-murder-apartment-franklin/2486959/ CBF
NoSaint Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I'm no Pats lover. I actually think it's the opposite. If AH had played for the Arizona Cardinals, there wouldn't be anywhere near the criticism of the organization that's on this board. The NFL is filled with PED using, painkiller using, recreational drug using, alcohol drinking, gang associating, violent crime committing, douchebag acting, 'roid raging, bar fighting, hyper-aggressive, bullying, not so bright guys. I would bet there is at least one (probably more) player that fits that exact description on every team. This one murdered someone (allegedly), so they released him. You mean like how they all condemned AZ for taking mathieu this year? Yea I don't remember the outcry either. Though I do remember many wanting him here.
3rdand12 Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I'm no Pats lover. I actually think it's the opposite. If AH had played for the Arizona Cardinals, there wouldn't be anywhere near the criticism of the organization that's on this board. The NFL is filled with PED using, painkiller using, recreational drug using, alcohol drinking, gang associating, violent crime committing, douchebag acting, 'roid raging, bar fighting, hyper-aggressive, bullying, not so bright guys. I would bet there is at least one (probably more) player that fits that exact description on every team. This one murdered someone (allegedly), so they released him. no we are not. signed Cardinal Goodell
Doc Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 This is a prime "known what?" moment Without defining that terminology, the post is as effective as if you just banged your head on the keyboard a few times. Not that I'm not also guilty of those posts as well. The 2 guys were shot last July. His extension came in August. They could have know about/investigated that. And there was probably other stuff as well. To go along with what was known pre-draft.
Beerball Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I'm no Pats lover. I actually think it's the opposite. If AH had played for the Arizona Cardinals, there wouldn't be anywhere near the criticism of the organization that's on this board. This one murdered someone (allegedly), so they released him. You mean like how they all condemned AZ for taking mathieu this year? Yea I don't remember the outcry either. Though I do remember many wanting him here. Condemned? Seriously? What he said is correct. We care more about this because it's the pats* getting blasted. Jests & fins would get similar treatment in the exact same circumstances, less but similar IMO. If it was 'any old team' meh.
Doc Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Obviously there will be a little more mustard on that sandwich because it's the Pats. This is no revelation.
Tcali Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 being in the vicinity of AH was very very dangerous.I think we can all agree to that. That's a lot of mayhem by age 23.
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