McD Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Lots of good points here (even if some peeps are off point a bit). I haven't heard anyone pissing and moaning about Mon or Thurs games... but rather the fact that some teams have 5 games against teams coming off byes while others have none. We know the shedule isn't all that easy and maybe the NFL schedule makers don't realize that anomoly exists...? If that's the case, then speaking up about it isn't a problem. Really, the question at hand becomes obvious with the following question... Before the AFC/NFC Championships or the SB... does one team get an extra week's time to heal/rest and prepare for their opponent? If not, why do you think that is? Do you think that it would be an unfair situation for one team over the other? Of course it is. With the way the regular season is laid out it's hard to accomodate everyone perfectly (that doesn't exist), but there shouldn't be a 4-5 game discrepancy here... that's all people are having issues with.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Excuse making defeatists are manufacturing excuses as to why the Bills are at a disadvantage. The general claim is that this team is treated unfairly by he league by the way the games are scheduled. My point regarding Toronto games and not having home games late in this upcoming season is that the league has acted to accommodate this losing franchise, not acted to hinder it. As I previously stated upgrade the product on the field and the bogus side issues will vanish. This never ending quest for finding excuses as to why the Bills lose is embarrassng. Have some pride and stop with the incessant whining. Losers make excuses and winners win! Why should the Falcons play 4 games against opponents with 10+ days rest while other teams play 0 such games? Why not make an effort to balance this out moving forward, rather than having it regularly occur that some teams are at a competitive disadvantage. The Bills have sucked and we all know it but I don't see how that's relevant.
CodeMonkey Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Why should the Falcons play 4 games against opponents with 10+ days rest while other teams play 0 such games? Why not make an effort to balance this out moving forward, rather than having it regularly occur that some teams are at a competitive disadvantage. Because it is more important to the NFL to maximize TV ratings and therefore generate more revenue than it is to correct the schedule for time-between-games fairness.
Doc Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Not really. The Toronto people want it to occur after the CFL season ends (around Thanksgiving-ish). The Bills, after getting pasted by divisional foes the first 2 years in Toronto, now request that the Toronto game be an NFC opponent. Since there are only 2 NFC opponents that come to Buffalo, and only about 5-6 weeks in which the game can be scheduled, the options are somewhat limited. The NFL can't just make up the whole schedule, then decide on which of the two NFC @ Buffalo games moves to Toronto, because both could easily wind up during the CFL season. Nor can they make up the schedule, then pick any home date post-Thanksgiving to switch to Toronto, because that might leave them with only divisional opponents. Now, that constraint shouldn't translate to "play 6 teams coming off extra rest" (or even 4 or 5), but it is a real constraint that other teams don't have. I didn't realize that the Bills requested an NFC opponent for their Toronto game, and if so (and I don't think it should be granted, or at least that the game be against a non-divisional foe), then I agree there are constraints. But by far the biggest constraint is placed on it by Toronto, requesting it be played after CFL season. Rogers buys all the tickets from the Bills as part of their deal, then resells them at a price of Rogers' choosing. But the more money the Bills get for the series, the higher the price Rogers must charge to break even. So the Bills definitely do impact the price. True. But I'd like to know Rogers' markup.
JohnC Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Having more time to rest and prepare is most certainly an advantage. Hence the reason teams try to get a coveted first-round bye in the playoffs. You can call it whining, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a disadvantage for the Bills, even if slight. In this biz, you use any advantage you can, like the Pats did with videotaping. The Bills lose when they are rested and they lose when they are tired. The Bills lose at home and they lose on the road. The Bills lose when it is warm and they lose when it is cold. The Bills lose against good teams and they lose against bad teams. Whining over how the schedule lines up is a pathetic response from those fans who refuse to hold the franchse accountable for their own impotent performances. Act like a grownup and hold yourself accountable. Instead of pointing the finger outward for excuses look inward for solutions. This loser mentality is ugly to witness. It's embarrassing.
Doc Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 The Bills lose when they are rested and they lose when they are tired. The Bills lose at home and they lose on the road. The Bills lose when it is warm and they lose when it is cold. The Bills lose against good teams and they lose against bad teams. Whining over how the schedule lines up is a pathetic response from those fans who refuse to hold the franchse accountable for their own impotent performances. Act like a grownup and hold yourself accountable. Instead of pointing the finger outward for excuses look inward for solutions. This loser mentality is ugly to witness. It's embarrassing. A true loser accepts being screwed. I'm glad the Bills finally said something.
JohnC Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Why should the Falcons play 4 games against opponents with 10+ days rest while other teams play 0 such games? Why not make an effort to balance this out moving forward, rather than having it regularly occur that some teams are at a competitive disadvantage. The Bills have sucked and we all know it but I don't see how that's relevant. Maybe there is an imbalance in this year's schedule? So what! There are many variables involved in putting together a schedule. It's not easy to do. There is never a year when a team or teams feel that they are being shortchanged by the scheduler. If it appears that this year's schedule is skewed against the Bills that doesn't mean that in other years the schedule wasn't skewed in their favor. There are a lot of teams that on paper are contending with challenging schedules. Instead of stewing about something they can't control they go out and compete and win at a solid rate. The Bills have had losing seasons in nine out of the past ten years. The Bills have not made the playoffs in 13 consecutive year and still counting. The Bills are in involved in their third rebuilding project over the last decade. Our problems have little to do with the schedule. Stop looking outward for excuses. Instead of wasting crybaby tears over the schedule work your way out of your own self-created mess. You can't control what others do but you can control what you do. Excuses are for losers. I'm tired of the excuses. Although season hasn't even started yet the torrent of excuses are already coming into play. That is sad and pathetic. A true loser accepts being screwed. I'm glad the Bills finally said something. Do you know what a real loser looks like? It is a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 13 consecutive years and still counting. Do you want to know what a loser looks like? It is a team that has had losing seasons in nine out of the last ten years in a system designed for parity. Do you want to know what a loser looks like? It is a team going on its third rebuilding project in less than a decade. If you think whining and sniveling over a schedule is going to help its cause then you are badly mistaken. There comes a time where an organization has to hold itself accountable for its own poor record. That's how a mature organization acts; that's how a winning organization behaves.
yungmack Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Maybe there is an imbalance in this year's schedule? So what! There are many variables involved in putting together a schedule. It's not easy to do. There is never a year when a team or teams feel that they are being shortchanged by the scheduler. If it appears that this year's schedule is skewed against the Bills that doesn't mean that in other years the schedule wasn't skewed in their favor. There are a lot of teams that on paper are contending with challenging schedules. Instead of stewing about something they can't control they go out and compete and win at a solid rate. The Bills have had losing seasons in nine out of the past ten years. The Bills have not made the playoffs in 13 consecutive year and still counting. The Bills are in involved in their third rebuilding project over the last decade. Our problems have little to do with the schedule. Stop looking outward for excuses. Instead of wasting crybaby tears over the schedule work your way out of your own self-created mess. You can't control what others do but you can control what you do. Excuses are for losers. I'm tired of the excuses. Although season hasn't even started yet the torrent of excuses are already coming into play. That is sad and pathetic. Do you know what a real loser looks like? It is a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 13 consecutive years and still counting. Do you want to know what a loser looks like? It is a team that has had losing seasons in nine out of the last ten years in a system designed for parity. Do you want to know what a loser looks like? It is a team going on its third rebuilding project in less than a decade. If you think whining and sniveling over a schedule is going to help its cause then you are badly mistaken. There comes a time where an organization has to hold itself accountable for its own poor record. That's how a mature organization acts; that's how a winning organization behaves. My word, such anger. You must be a delight to live with. "You won't get your pudding if you don't eat your meat."
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Because it is more important to the NFL to maximize TV ratings and therefore generate more revenue than it is to correct the schedule for time-between-games fairness. I agree. It's way down on the priority list. So what it comes down to is whether it's possible for the NFL to regulate this slight competitive disadvantage without messing anything else up. Would you agree?
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) Maybe there is an imbalance in this year's schedule? So what! There are many variables involved in putting together a schedule. It's not easy to do. There is never a year when a team or teams feel that they are being shortchanged by the scheduler. If it appears that this year's schedule is skewed against the Bills that doesn't mean that in other years the schedule wasn't skewed in their favor. There are a lot of teams that on paper are contending with challenging schedules. Instead of stewing about something they can't control they go out and compete and win at a solid rate. The Bills have had losing seasons in nine out of the past ten years. The Bills have not made the playoffs in 13 consecutive year and still counting. The Bills are in involved in their third rebuilding project over the last decade. Our problems have little to do with the schedule. Stop looking outward for excuses. Instead of wasting crybaby tears over the schedule work your way out of your own self-created mess. You can't control what others do but you can control what you do. Excuses are for losers. I'm tired of the excuses. Although season hasn't even started yet the torrent of excuses are already coming into play. That is sad and pathetic. No team should ever use this kink in the schedule as an excuse for losing. The Bills have sucked for a long time and the schedule is no excuse. If they continue to suck, this kink in the schedule will continue to be no excuse for it. That point is not lost on me- there is no excuse for the Bills continuing to lose. It is of course impossible to create a schedule that puts everyone on perfectly even ground, and the NFL wouldn't want that anyway. The current system puts more good teams against each other ($$) while also giving weaker teams a softer schedule (creating parity). That is an example of a regulated system of inequality, with a purpose in mind. On the other hand what we're talking about is a random occurrence that serves no purpose, while putting random teams at a (very) slight competitive disadvantage. I understand 'just shut up and beat whoever's in front of you.' It would be laughable if someone tried to use the schedule as an excuse for a losing season. But if this very small discrepancy in the schedule can be fixed, I'd like to know why that'd be a bad thing. Edited June 21, 2013 by J-Gun Boone
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Q and A: Is the Toronto game relevant in this discussion? No, unless one believes that the scheduling of one game in a way to accommodate the Bills wishes gives the NFL carte blanche to disregard any other scheduling considerations. Is the fact that the Bills have sucked relevant to this discussion? Only to some fans who are so self-loathing that they feel that because the Bills suck that they don't deserve to be treated fairly by the league. Is fan anger and emotion playing too much of a role in this discussion? Yes, obviously. To see why, examine the "logic" of the arguments. What then are the logical arguments being made by those who believe that the Bills shouldn't complain? The main argument is the "Self-loathing Argument."which states that because the Bills suck they don't deserve fair treatment. The second argument is the "Fairness is a moot point Argument" which states that if the Bills were better that the unfairness of their schedule would be irrelevant. This argument misses the point that an unfair schedule could cost a better team one win that could be the difference between making the playoffs or not, getting a first-round bye or not, etc. In other words, an unfair schedule can screw all teams, not just bad teams. The third argument is the "You can't have your cake and eat it too Argument" which states that the Bills have been accommodated by the schedule makers in a few ways therefore they have relinquished any and all rights to a fair schedule. Besides being beset by logical flaws in-and-of themselves, all of these arguments ignore the very concept of fairness as if it has no place in competitive sports. Should the Bills concentrate on winning instead of defending their interests? Only if one believes they are incapable of doing both at the same time or thinks that an article by Chris Brown hinders the Bills attempts to improve as a team. In the actual real world we know that the efforts of the PR, Marketing, and Media Relations Departments can be performed without hindering the Football Department's mission of winning. In other words, why shouldn't they do both? Should the NFL create a schedule that is as fair as possible to all teams? Does one really have to ask this question? One of the top considerations of any sports league should be to create a fair-as-possible schedule. Is the fact that some teams play 5 well-rested opponents while other teams play zero well-rested opponents unfair? Yes, it is unfair. Is it unfair to a significant degree? In this case it is. Besides the oddity that the Bills have in recent years played the Cheatriots*** numerous times coming off New England's bye, the fact of the Bills playing 4 well-rested opponents last year and 5 this year as well as having their own bye advantage nullified is significantly unfair. Would this be an issue if there wasn't a well-established pattern of unfairness in the schedule? No it would not be an issue. Can the NFL do better with their schedule making? This is the hard question. The league's schedule makers weigh and consider numerous variables in creating their algorithm. We don't know what they value so we can only guess at this answer. It needs to be repeated that half of all NFL games are decided by 7 points or less therefore arguably, nearly half of all NFL games are decided by one play. The difference between winning and losing in this league has always been razor thin. It is always in a professional sports league's best interests to maximize fairness. IMO the NFL can and should do better in this area.
MattM Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Great post--well said.... Q and A: Is the Toronto game relevant in this discussion? No, unless one believes that the scheduling of one game in a way to accommodate the Bills wishes gives the NFL carte blanche to disregard any other scheduling considerations. Is the fact that the Bills have sucked relevant to this discussion? Only to some fans who are so self-loathing that they feel that because the Bills suck that they don't deserve to be treated fairly by the league. Is fan anger and emotion playing too much of a role in this discussion? Yes, obviously. To see why, examine the "logic" of the arguments. What then are the logical arguments being made by those who believe that the Bills shouldn't complain? The main argument is the "Self-loathing Argument."which states that because the Bills suck they don't deserve fair treatment. The second argument is the "Fairness is a moot point Argument" which states that if the Bills were better that the unfairness of their schedule would be irrelevant. This argument misses the point that an unfair schedule could cost a better team one win that could be the difference between making the playoffs or not, getting a first-round bye or not, etc. In other words, an unfair schedule can screw all teams, not just bad teams. The third argument is the "You can't have your cake and eat it too Argument" which states that the Bills have been accommodated by the schedule makers in a few ways therefore they have relinquished any and all rights to a fair schedule. Besides being beset by logical flaws in-and-of themselves, all of these arguments ignore the very concept of fairness as if it has no place in competitive sports. Should the Bills concentrate on winning instead of defending their interests? Only if one believes they are incapable of doing both at the same time or thinks that an article by Chris Brown hinders the Bills attempts to improve as a team. In the actual real world we know that the efforts of the PR, Marketing, and Media Relations Departments can be performed without hindering the Football Department's mission of winning. In other words, why shouldn't they do both? Should the NFL create a schedule that is as fair as possible to all teams? Does one really have to ask this question? One of the top considerations of any sports league should be to create a fair-as-possible schedule. Is the fact that some teams play 5 well-rested opponents while other teams play zero well-rested opponents unfair? Yes, it is unfair. Is it unfair to a significant degree? In this case it is. Besides the oddity that the Bills have in recent years played the Cheatriots*** numerous times coming off New England's bye, the fact of the Bills playing 4 well-rested opponents last year and 5 this year as well as having their own bye advantage nullified is significantly unfair. Would this be an issue if there wasn't a well-established pattern of unfairness in the schedule? No it would not be an issue. Can the NFL do better with their schedule making? This is the hard question. The league's schedule makers weigh and consider numerous variables in creating their algorithm. We don't know what they value so we can only guess at this answer. It needs to be repeated that half of all NFL games are decided by 7 points or less therefore arguably, nearly half of all NFL games are decided by one play. The difference between winning and losing in this league has always been razor thin. It is always in a professional sports league's best interests to maximize fairness. IMO the NFL can and should do better in this area.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 Is it unfair to a significant degree? In this case it is. Besides the oddity that the Bills have in recent years played the Cheatriots*** numerous times coming off New England's bye, the fact of the Bills playing 4 well-rested opponents last year and 5 this year as well as having their own bye advantage nullified is significantly unfair. Just to nitpick a great post, I'm not sure how big a deal it is. The Colts used to get their week off and then drop a home game to an inferior team in the divisional round. The same thing sometimes happens in the NBA when teams get time off, they come out looking sluggish their first game. It depends on the team, the rhythm and precision that can be lost from time off was more important to the Colts than other teams. Because the sword cuts both ways I see this as a pretty small discrepancy.
CodeMonkey Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 I agree. It's way down on the priority list. So what it comes down to is whether it's possible for the NFL to regulate this slight competitive disadvantage without messing anything else up. Would you agree? If it were possible without affecting the tv ratings at all, yes. But like you, I think it is way down the priority list. So far down in fact, as to basically not exist. They care about money, and tv ratings = money. They could not possibly care less, in my opinion, if some small market team like the Bills gets less rest between games than a popular team like the pats*.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 Just to nitpick a great post, I'm not sure how big a deal it is. The Colts used to get their week off and then drop a home game to an inferior team in the divisional round. The same thing sometimes happens in the NBA when teams get time off, they come out looking sluggish their first game. It depends on the team, the rhythm and precision that can be lost from time off was more important to the Colts than other teams. Because the sword cuts both ways I see this as a pretty small discrepancy. Thanks BBB. My bigger point is that huge portions of this discussion are almost nonsensical due to being emotion-driven. If it were possible without affecting the tv ratings at all, yes. But like you, I think it is way down the priority list. So far down in fact, as to basically not exist. They care about money, and tv ratings = money. They could not possibly care less, in my opinion, if some small market team like the Bills gets less rest between games than a popular team like the pats*. This is undoubtedly true. It's pretty self-evident from the schedule that the league places greater value in revenue than fairness when it comes to scheduling. I understand this from the standpoint that the NFL with its short season and prime time spots differs greatly from any other North American pro sport in terms of television. The question is if the will exists and whether and at what cost the NFL can mitigate inequities in the schedule. I'm not holding my breath.
JohnC Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) My word, such anger. You must be a delight to live with. "You won't get your pudding if you don't eat your meat." You might think I'm angry but I'm not. My position is that if you review the Bills record over the past 15 yrs their paltry performance has little to do with the schedule. The Bills are a lower performing team that usually results in the schedule makers giving us a less rigorous schedule compared to high performing teams. You certainly won't hear the fans complaining that in prior years our schedule was too easy. There are a lot of factors that go into making a schedule. It is beyond any of our capabilities to understand all the variables involved in the calculation. So why be bothered with something you can't control? The season is not even close to starting. Yet the howls of scheduling injustice can already be heard. That is a sad commentary on a battered fan base. Edited June 22, 2013 by JohnC
Dorkington Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 I think the Bills need to stop whining and go win games on the field, personally. (yes, I consider Brown to be the mouthpiece of the Bills) Stating that the Bills went 1-3 last year when disadvantaged in scheduling means nothing when the team goes 5-7 in their "normal/advantaged" games. Maybe our players need to make some plays, and our (new) coaches need to do some actual coaching. Then, when we are relevant, we can complain about scheduling, otherwise it matters not.
McD Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 I asked (and answered) this earlier, but nobody disputed it... so I'll bring it up again... Before the AFC/NFC Championships or the SB... does one team get an extra week's time to heal/rest and prepare for their opponent? If not, why do you think that is? Do you think that it would be an unfair situation for one team over the other? Of course it is. With the way the regular season is laid out it's hard to accomodate everyone perfectly (that doesn't exist), but there shouldn't be a 4-5 game discrepancy here... that's all people are having issues with Any dispute to this?
BuffaloBob Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) The yearly scheduling complaint that this franchise makes to the league is that there are too many late season cold weather games that are difficult to sell out. This year the league accommodated the franchise. If the Bills fielded a competitive team the scheduling issue would be irrelevant, I doubt Roger Goodell and the league headquarters worry an iota about being watched by this ineffectual and losing franchise. With respect to scheduling this franchise lost their already very limited credibility when they moved home games out of their own town for the extra buck. As to the first point, just becuase THIS year they ended up with fewer December home games does not mean the league in fact intentionally provided that relief. It could very well be that fewer December home games THIS year is just the way this year's schedule worked out. Unless you can provide a link or at least some evidence that this result occurred as a direct result of NFL scheduling intervention, it is of little value to this discussion. As to the second point, like it or not, the fact is that if this franchise is to have any chance of surviving as a Buffalo franchise after a sale post Ralph, it has to have a large enough revenue stream. Roger Goodell knows that, the NFL knows that, and the Bills know that. Why don't you know that? Edited June 22, 2013 by BuffaloBob
BuffaloBob Posted June 22, 2013 Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) You might think I'm angry but I'm not. My position is that if you review the Bills record over the past 15 yrs their paltry performance has little to do with the schedule. The Bills are a lower performing team that usually results in the schedule makers giving us a less rigorous schedule compared to high performing teams. You certainly won't hear the fans complaining that in prior years our schedule was too easy. There are a lot of factors that go into making a schedule. It is beyond any of our capabilities to understand all the variables involved in the calculation. So why be bothered with something you can't control? The season is not even close to starting. Yet the howls of scheduling injustice can already be heard. That is a sad commentary on a battered fan base. Oh please! Stop making this out to be more than it really is just to support your soapbox. No one is HOWLING about anything. It is a simple fact that the Bills HAVE been disadvantaged by this flaw in the scheduling process, whether you are willing to admit it or not. No one in this entire conversation has EVER said the Bills would have been in the playoffs or SB champs if only it hadn't been for this scheduling injustice, woe as me. It is a simple fact, and it deserves attention by the league. And BTW, it is not beyond ALL of our capabilities to understand the variables involved. Moreover, they have software that helps them handle and prioritize all of those variables. This is most certainly under the league's control. There is simply NO excuse for taking the position that it's all good and the Bills should just grin and bear it, else their babies and whiners. There is no excuse or reason why your division rivals (and especially the top one) do not have to suffer this at all, while you get to "bend over" for it 5 times during the same season and suffer it in silence because, hey, you haven't been that good anyway. For league that prides itself on parity, they need to fix this so it doesn't unfairly disadvantage one team. Edited June 22, 2013 by BuffaloBob
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