Eric Moulds was on Sirius radio today.

[NoSaint]

Joe Horn was awesome and so was Moulds.

 

You wanna call em good or great, I don't care, it's semantics. But you don't have to be a Hall of Famer to have a career worthy of appreciation from the hometown fans.

 

Agreed here too. Sometimes it's nice just to be a fan and not an analyst. I think it's a fair sentiment, and I often swing a bit back and forth on cold hard numbers vs just enjoying the experience of the game. I think badol has made some solid arguments to support his slotting of moulds (I think he's shorting him a little but not crazily), I also think I really enjoyed watching him play.

 

Perhaps he wasnt as special league wide but I know he was special to a lot of bills fans still. I think those can coexist.

Edited June 23, 2013 by NoSaint

[Tipster19]

Joe Horn was awesome and so was Moulds.

 

You wanna call em good or great, I don't care, it's semantics. But you don't have to be a Hall of Famer to have a career worthy of appreciation from the hometown fans.

 

Well said.

 

 

 

I get that most people reading this thread don't want to hear this....I am assuiming most that would click on a Moulds thread remember Moulds only fondly and not for any of his issues with the law, quitting on the team, poor early production or as Rico put it being a punk by quitting on the team, spitting in opponents faces, whining incessantly to the refs etc.......and that's probably why you aren't actually READING my response......but AT LEAST read a response before you take offense to it. My would've and could've scenarios were in response to yours. The other side of the coin? You get that, right?

The story is written on Moulds. He was what his record says he was.

 

Just like the story is written on the Bills at 6-10 or 7-9 every year in recent memory and yet some fans insist that the team was two or three plays from finishing 9-7 or 10-6. The flip side of that argument is that they were two or three plays from being 4-12 too. That's the way it works. The bottom line though......the Bills record speaks for itself.....as does Moulds career.

 

Otherwise, yeah. That's what I am saying. Moulds had one great year, and otherwise he was pathetic the two years prior....very good for 4 more years after his great year....and a good but steadily declining player until his last two seasons in the NFL where he was just another guy collecting a paycheck.

 

No, I read every response that you wrote and I'm accurate in my responses. I was the one who said about spitting in a DB's face and I also concurred with another poster about Moulds looking for a flag more than the ball towards the end of his career, so maybe you better proofread the responses before making accusations. I'm not taking offense, just getting a little annoyed with the way that you just keep on hammering your point about Moulds. I kept an open mind the first COUPLE of times but it's kind of like when a wife keeps on harping on something that she may even be right about but after awhile it just gets irritating and you don't want to hear it anymore. Anyways Moulds' character was never the point of this thread but you took it upon yourself to make that one of the main issues on this thread. Give up the crusade, this was just about his sentiment with Buffalo and his playing ability and yes he was a great WR, you said so yourself, even if it was only for one year. I don't understand how someone can be great and not be great all at the same time.??? Stop making this ugly and let the fans enjoy some of the good things and players that have happened to this franchise. Lord knows we need SOMETHING to feel good about, we all have suffered long enough.

 

For your second paragraph, I agree totally on your opinion on that. I have never been the one that believes in kidding one's self and minimizing the reality of our record(s).

 

 

 

Agreed here too. Sometimes it's nice just to be a fan and not an analyst. I think it's a fair sentiment, and I often swing a bit back and forth on cold hard numbers vs just enjoying the experience of the game. I think badol has made some solid arguments to support his slotting of moulds (I think he's shorting him a little but not crazily), I also think I really enjoyed watching him play.

 

Perhaps he wasnt as special league wide but I know he was special to a lot of bills fans still. I think those can coexist.

 

Good point. This was really just my intention when I started this thread but I'm wondering if it was even worth starting it. That's too bad, too many times things/issues/topics turns ugly on this board. I don't know about other teams' fanbase and/or their message boards but there is too much of a percentage of Bills' fans that are negative, cynical and just downright miserable at times on this board. Whatever happen to just being happy, hopeful and proud to being your favorite team's fan???

[ganesh]

I can't really agree with this. Look at 2006....he had 14 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, and recovered one of them. And you want to talk about being hindered? Jauron had him dropping back in coverage, as well as lining up so far outside he was barely in bounds. For years, he alone was virtually the entire Buffalo Bills pass rush and was doubled on almost every play. Imagine Schobel in his prime playing opposite a defensive end such as Bruce or Mario!

 

When Schobel came into the league he was raw, purely a speed rusher (people forget his blinding speed for a DE). I saw him get beat up by the underrated Brad Hopkins, and was concerned. He was light (probably 255 or so) and it was brutal. But he worked hard and developed a very good spin move. He once registered 2.5 sacks in a game against Jonathan Ogden, which was virtually unheard of.

 

Let's face it, he will never get his due because he followed Bruce Smith, who was one of the best ever. But if Schobel in his prime was on this current team, it would be very hard for teams to throw against them. Very hard.

 

Can't agree any more. Schoebel was one of the few top-level productive player in the NFL for the Buffalo Bills in the 2000's. He never gets his due. He was our sole pass rusher all those years and never got much support other than the years played by Spikes.

[NoName]

Can't agree any more. Schoebel was one of the few top-level productive player in the NFL for the Buffalo Bills in the 2000's. He never gets his due. He was our sole pass rusher all those years and never got much support other than the years played by Spikes.

good point. I didn't take into consideration that he didn't get much help on the dline....He probably will never make the bills wall much less the hall.....i don't view him as a pro bowler but just a notch below....as far the moulds thing go, I'll let it go. I really think that poster has something personal against moulds but when people who played the game top tier players and coaches call the guy elite then that says alot.

[ganesh]

good point. I didn't take into consideration that he didn't get much help on the dline....He probably will never make the bills wall much less the hall.....i don't view him as a pro bowler but just a notch below....as far the moulds thing go, I'll let it go. I really think that poster has something personal against moulds but when people who played the game top tier players and coaches call the guy elite then that says alot.

I think Eric Moulds was a good player for the Bills and so were many others during this wretched era. We just did not have a good Front Office and Coaching staff to put it all together.

[Bill from NYC]

Well said.

 

 

No, I read every response that you wrote and I'm accurate in my responses. I was the one who said about spitting in a DB's face and I also concurred with another poster about Moulds looking for a flag more than the ball towards the end of his career, so maybe you better proofread the responses before making accusations. I'm not taking offense, just getting a little annoyed with the way that you just keep on hammering your point about Moulds. I kept an open mind the first COUPLE of times but it's kind of like when a wife keeps on harping on something that she may even be right about but after awhile it just gets irritating and you don't want to hear it anymore. Anyways Moulds' character was never the point of this thread but you took it upon yourself to make that one of the main issues on this thread. Give up the crusade, this was just about his sentiment with Buffalo and his playing ability and yes he was a great WR, you said so yourself, even if it was only for one year. I don't understand how someone can be great and not be great all at the same time.??? Stop making this ugly and let the fans enjoy some of the good things and players that have happened to this franchise. Lord knows we need SOMETHING to feel good about, we all have suffered long enough.

 

For your second paragraph, I agree totally on your opinion on that. I have never been the one that believes in kidding one's self and minimizing the reality of our record(s).

 

If the purpose of this board was to form a consensus, I would stop posting here in a minute. There are posters who have and represent different takes on this football team. BADOL happens to be more analytical than most, but he backs up his statements with facts. If you don't want in depth analysis of what has and is happening with the Bills, I suggest that you ignore his comments. Imo this would be your loss, but that's just me. He is going against the grain, this is true. So what? I can tell you from personal experience that doing so is not often easy.

 

I could come on this board and tell you that stupid draft picks such as Spiller and Gilmore were good, smart picks. The homers woud love it, but it isn't true IMO. Hey.....there is one poster who continues to defend Levy/Jauron, which was the flashpoint of this team going from bad to swirling the toilet. And I am fine with this; it's his opinion.

 

A prominent poster here derides fans for ANY negative comment about the Bills. This too is his right imo, but the Bills are serial losers for several reasons, and I think that discussing said reasons in a civil way is a good thing.

 

In any event, we all hope that the Bills will win football games. We cope in different ways, but opinions and good discussion is why we are here imo.

[Tipster19]

Well said and classy too, thank you. Man, I can't wait until this season starts, hopefully we begin a new era of good, successful seasons.

[Bill from NYC]

Well said and classy too, thank you. Man, I can't wait until this season starts, hopefully we begin a new era of good, successful seasons.

 

We sure do deserve it. Much of what will happen rests on the shoulders of Manuel and the coaches. If Manuel is good, and players such as Glenn, Dareus and Gilmore develop, we might actually have a chance for second place in the division. And things do look ugly up in NE, ya know?

[eball]

We sure do deserve it. Much of what will happen rests on the shoulders of Manuel and the coaches. If Manuel is good, and players such as Glenn, Dareus and Gilmore develop, we might actually have a chance for second place in the division. And things do look ugly up in NE, ya know?

 

Aside from Brady, I'm curious as to your opinion comparing talent with talent between the Bills and Pats* rosters. I do believe the coaching chasm has shrunk with the Bills' Marrone/Pettine acquisitions.

[Bill from NYC]

Aside from Brady, I'm curious as to your opinion comparing talent with talent between the Bills and Pats* rosters. I do believe the coaching chasm has shrunk with the Bills' Marrone/Pettine acquisitions.

 

I think that the Bills would appear to have better receivers, but I am once again concerned wrt the TE position. TEs can be very helpful to young QBs. I hope Chandler is healthy. The rest is really up to the development of Manuel and our young players.

Imo, we are a year away from serious contention (again, depending on Manuel and good drafting).

But for the Bills, this is an improvement.

[JohnC]

I think that the Bills would appear to have better receivers, but I am once again concerned wrt the TE position. TEs can be very helpful to young QBs. I hope Chandler is healthy. The rest is really up to the development of Manuel and our young players.

Imo, we are a year away from serious contention (again, depending on Manuel and good drafting).

But for the Bills, this is an improvement.

 

I think you are being overly generous in assessing where the Bills are in their rebuilding stage. For me the Bills are at least two to three years away from being a serious team. The issue for me has little to do with the team's record this year. My guess is that they are a six or seven win type of team.

 

The most important metric that I will be judging this team by has to do with the qb play of its rookie qb. How Kolb plays means little to me. He can be an average qb at best but in the long run it gets you nowhere meaningful. If E.J. Manuel demonstrates that he can develop into being a legitimate franchise qb then from my perspective the season can be declared a success. If it appears that Manuel is overmatched and that he can't handle the position then the rebuilding process is set back.

 

The Jauron/Levy/Brandon/Nix era is a testament to wretched mediocrity striving to be at best average. When Brandon was involved with the football operation he fit in with the lineage of fools. But taking over for the inscrutable owner as the president of the franchise he has done an impressive job of reconfiguring the organization and restaffing the organization with forward thinking people. I'm more encouraged now than ever that this staff under Whaley has an understanding of how to build a franchise. Instead of muddling along in an ad hoc fashion they have a blue print in mind and are now acting on that blue print.

 

After looking back and observing the new HC hire and the installation of his staff, this past draft and the free agent acquisitions I get the sense that finally this organization is coming out of the stoneage and entering the modern world of the NFL of today. Is this wishful thinking? I hope not!

[eball]

I think you are being overly generous in assessing where the Bills are in their rebuilding stage. For me the Bills are at least two to three years away from being a serious team. The issue for me has little to do with the team's record this year. My guess is that they are a six or seven win type of team.

 

The most important metric that I will be judging this team by has to do with the qb play of its rookie qb. How Kolb plays means little to me. He can be an average qb at best but in the long run it gets you nowhere meaningful. If E.J. Manuel demonstrates that he can develop into being a legitimate franchise qb then from my perspective the season can be declared a success. If it appears that Manuel is overmatched and that he can't handle the position then the rebuilding process is set back.

 

The Jauron/Levy/Brandon/Nix era is a testament to wretched mediocrity striving to be at best average. When Brandon was involved with the football operation he fit in with the lineage of fools. But taking over for the inscrutable owner as the president of the franchise he has done an impressive job of reconfiguring the organization and restaffing the organization with forward thinking people. I'm more encouraged now than ever that this staff under Whaley has an understanding of how to build a franchise. Instead of muddling along in an ad hoc fashion they have a blue print in mind and are now acting on that blue print.

 

After looking back and observing the new HC hire and the installation of his staff, this past draft and the free agent acquisitions I get the sense that finally this organization is coming out of the stoneage and entering the modern world of the NFL of today. Is this wishful thinking? I hope not!

 

The only thing I would disagree with is your first paragraph. There is talent. It's football, not building the atomic bomb. If the coaches are competent and actually put people in the best positions to succeed, the gap between the Bills and playoff teams is not as large as you suggest -- in fact, there may not be a gap at all. I do agree QB play is paramount.

 

Everything else you wrote should have us very optimistic going forward, but I'm not willing to write off this season until I see what hits the field.

[Tipster19]

 

 

I think you are being overly generous in assessing where the Bills are in their rebuilding stage. For me the Bills are at least two to three years away from being a serious team. The issue for me has little to do with the team's record this year. My guess is that they are a six or seven win type of team.

 

The most important metric that I will be judging this team by has to do with the qb play of its rookie qb. How Kolb plays means little to me. He can be an average qb at best but in the long run it gets you nowhere meaningful. If E.J. Manuel demonstrates that he can develop into being a legitimate franchise qb then from my perspective the season can be declared a success. If it appears that Manuel is overmatched and that he can't handle the position then the rebuilding process is set back.

 

The Jauron/Levy/Brandon/Nix era is a testament to wretched mediocrity striving to be at best average. When Brandon was involved with the football operation he fit in with the lineage of fools. But taking over for the inscrutable owner as the president of the franchise he has done an impressive job of reconfiguring the organization and restaffing the organization with forward thinking people. I'm more encouraged now than ever that this staff under Whaley has an understanding of how to build a franchise. Instead of muddling along in an ad hoc fashion they have a blue print in mind and are now acting on that blue print.

 

After looking back and observing the new HC hire and the installation of his staff, this past draft and the free agent acquisitions I get the sense that finally this organization is coming out of the stoneage and entering the modern world of the NFL of today. Is this wishful thinking? I hope not!

 

Excellent commentary! While none of us really knows what is about to unfold with this season and with this staff but I am hopeful (once again! Lol!) that this time there really is a difference. I totally agree with what you said about Brandon, I think that you're spot on. When it is all over and done with I'm glad that we have Brandon, especially in the capacity that he is currently in, he's much more suited for it and I truly believe that he has nothing but the best interest in his heart for this franchise and community.

 

[JohnC]

The only thing I would disagree with is your first paragraph. There is talent. It's football, not building the atomic bomb. If the coaches are competent and actually put people in the best positions to succeed, the gap between the Bills and playoff teams is not as large as you suggest -- in fact, there may not be a gap at all. I do agree QB play is paramount.

 

Everything else you wrote should have us very optimistic going forward, but I'm not willing to write off this season until I see what hits the field.

 

The issue isn't how much talent you have so much as how much talent you have compared to the elite teams. The Bills are still in the phase of cleaning out a large segment of the players accumulated from the prior regimes. A lot has been done so far and more will be done. In another year or so there will be few Nix drafted players on this roster.

 

You may think that the Bills are a possible playoff contending team but I don't see it. If the Bills attain a .500 record I would be happily stunned. That would make Marrone the HC of the year. Odds are it is not going to happen.

 

Whether the Bills win 6 or 7 games is irrelevant at this point, at least to me. The team can be better and play better but that won't necessarily translate into wins. What is important is that this franchise start the rebuilding process and move forward and build on it. The problem with this troubled franchise is that it starts a rebuild and then quickly aborts and starts another rebuild. We are in a third rebuild in a decade. Simply too much instability to accomplish anything.

 

The key to this franchise is the development of a legitimate franchise qb. If E.J. Manuel proves to be an impactful qb then there is hope. It's not about the record for this year; it's about how good your qb is and is going to be. That's where the focus should be.

 

The first priorty of this franchise was getting the organization structured right and properly staffed.. I think Brandon has done an excellent job in that category. Until that most important issue was resolved nothing else mattered. It is going to take time. My timetable is a little longer than yours.

[eball]

The issue isn't how much talent you have so much as how much talent you have compared to the elite teams. The Bills are still in the phase of cleaning out a large segment of the players accumulated from the prior regimes. A lot has been done so far and more will be done. In another year or so there will be few Nix drafted players on this roster.

 

<snip>

 

The first priorty of this franchise was getting the organization structured right and properly staffed.. I think Brandon has done an excellent job in that category. Until that most important issue was resolved nothing else mattered. It is going to take time. My timetable is a little longer than yours.

 

We clearly disagree on the overall quality of players drafted/acquired during Buddy's tenure. That's fine; we'll see soon enough who is correct. I'm glad we both agree the future looks bright. Go Bills.

Edited June 25, 2013 by eball

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The only thing I would disagree with is your first paragraph. There is talent. It's football, not building the atomic bomb. If the coaches are competent and actually put people in the best positions to succeed, the gap between the Bills and playoff teams is not as large as you suggest -- in fact, there may not be a gap at all. I do agree QB play is paramount.

 

Everything else you wrote should have us very optimistic going forward, but I'm not willing to write off this season until I see what hits the field.

 

John as usual makes excellent points and the discussion of talent is not really so black and white as it is grey.

 

That said I have to side with you on this one.

 

There is perceived talent and then there is unperceived talent.

 

There is established talent and unestablished talent.

 

There are players who live off their reputations and players who don't yet have reputations.

 

The line between winning and losing is usually very thin in the NFL where almost every year a team goes from worst to first. There are talented teams who don't win and less-talented teams that do win.

 

IMO most of the teams have very similar talent across the board and the biggest differences among teams is the coaching staff and the quarterback play. For instance the 2-14 Kansas City Chiefs had 6 Pro Bowlers but their coach was Romeo Crennel and their quarterback was Matt Cassel.

 

How good a team is Green Bay without Aaron Rodgers? Are there any good teams with bad quarterbacks?

 

I know this runs counter to those who believe that talent wins football games but I've never believed that so much as I believe what experience has shown us over and over: that the best teams have the best coaches and the best quarterbacks.

[ganesh]

If the purpose of this board was to form a consensus, I would stop posting here in a minute. There are posters who have and represent different takes on this football team. BADOL happens to be more analytical than most, but he backs up his statements with facts. If you don't want in depth analysis of what has and is happening with the Bills, I suggest that you ignore his comments. Imo this would be your loss, but that's just me. He is going against the grain, this is true. So what? I can tell you from personal experience that doing so is not often easy.

 

I could come on this board and tell you that stupid draft picks such as Spiller and Gilmore were good, smart picks. The homers woud love it, but it isn't true IMO. Hey.....there is one poster who continues to defend Levy/Jauron, which was the flashpoint of this team going from bad to swirling the toilet. And I am fine with this; it's his opinion.

 

A prominent poster here derides fans for ANY negative comment about the Bills. This too is his right imo, but the Bills are serial losers for several reasons, and I think that discussing said reasons in a civil way is a good thing.

 

In any event, we all hope that the Bills will win football games. We cope in different ways, but opinions and good discussion is why we are here imo.

 

And then there is a guy who posts on every Monday for 17 weeks and gives 10 different opinions about players/coaches/plays/emotions and we thank him for that...While we may not agree with everyone of his comments, it is a pleasurable read and a good discussion thread even if it was a loss. Thanks Bill for doing that.

 

I think that the Bills would appear to have better receivers, but I am once again concerned wrt the TE position. TEs can be very helpful to young QBs. I hope Chandler is healthy. The rest is really up to the development of Manuel and our young players.

Imo, we are a year away from serious contention (again, depending on Manuel and good drafting).

But for the Bills, this is an improvement.

Agreed...Big Ben had a big outlet in Heath Miller, Tom Brady has always had great TEs to help him out, RGIII has Fred Davis etc..

[Tipster19]

Speaking of the TE position, I'm curious if this position becomes more of a priority in future drafts/Free Agency to this administration than it has in years past. It would be nice if we could finally see us utilize ALL positions to their full capabilities.

[Bill from NYC]

Speaking of the TE position, I'm curious if this position becomes more of a priority in future drafts/Free Agency to this administration than it has in years past. It would be nice if we could finally see us utilize ALL positions to their full capabilities.

Yes indeed. The Bills, no matter who is GM, tend to focus primarily on dbs and rbs in the draft (until 2013). Maybe this will change. TE and OG are 2 positions which have always fascinated me on draft day. Generally speaking, you don't need a top 10 pick to draft a great one. You can get one late in the first round, etc. There are too many examples to list, but Steve Hutchinson, one of the best ever, was selected at #17.

[Ted William's frozen head]

 

 

Just tellin' it like it was. He was great for one season. The Bills drafted him because they needed a big play WR to round out their offense in 1996. The Bills were a SB favorite coming into that season and Kelly was coming off a great year where many people felt he had deserved to be the AFC's MVP. Moulds was going to be that last explosive piece of the puzzle.

 

Instead he was worthless and that continued in 1997. It's easy to forget but coming into training camp in 1998 there were questions about whether Moulds would even make the team. We aren't talking CJ Spiller's first couple years kinda' bust......Moulds was much closer to Maybin-esque in his bustitude. He couldn't do anything right. When he and Friggin' Lonnie were on the field together at the same time you just knew something stupid was going to happen, which was in direct contrast to a Bills team that had prided itself on smarts and savvy for so many years. He had played awful on offense and he was a criminal who was bringing a lot of bad PR to the team. The strides he made in the 1998 season were incredible, but it also underscored the talent he had been wasting. Then, to have him almost immediately start to decline at such a young age was too bad for us Bills fans. His 1998 was the greatest season ever by a Bills receiver and we thought we had a guy who would be All Pro for many years. Unfortunately it just never worked out that way. Never was the same player after that year.

I can remember a 51 yard Johnson to Moulds catch (For a TD if my memory serves me) during the first play of the opening drive that set the tone for the 0-3 Bills to beat the 49'ers @ home in '98... Edited June 26, 2013 by Ted William's frozen head