KeisterHollow Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Have a jets fan friend who commented on the same thing. He said the defense was getting more and more conservative the last two years That may be the case, and it may be that Pettine was simply changing the style of his defense slightly, but it may also be attributed to a change in personnel. I don't know about you guys, but I seem to recall the Jets defense looking more and more pedestrian, in terms of player names, over the last few years. It started out, when Rex first came over, as a beast of a defense, but these past few years the personnel changed and it was good, but not AS GOOD. Could the players abilities have accounted for this?
Wayne Cubed Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 one possibility. another being that more than sacks are needed to measure the success of blitzs. where are the advanced stats guys when you need them?!?! I suppose you could look at yards per attempt, completion percentage against and total yards on passing plays? 2009: 5.4 ypa (1st overall), 51.7% (1st overall) and 2459 (1st overall) 2010: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 50.7% (1st overall) and 3210 (6th overall) 2011: 6.7 ypa (6th overall), 54.2% (6th overall) and 3216 (5th overall) 2012: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 53.8% (2nd overall) and 3036 (2nd overall) 2009 was obviously the best year for the Jests but in 2010, with Rex still in charge, the numbers dropped then stayed the same in 2011 when Pettine took over. In 2012 the numbers started to improve again.
Beerball Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Rex called him out publicly a few times the last few years. We have a few question marks that we as fans are pretty well forgetting/ignoring/hoping don't end up breaking the wrong way Nailed it.
Ralph W. Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) That doesn't sound like the case in OTAs someone is lying. I wouldn't put it past Rex to lie, he is in the hot seat and is trying everything to keep his EGO up. Edited June 17, 2013 by EJ3
playman Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 This comes off as really, really odd, especially seeing how the defensive scheme has played out here recently. But maybe the answer is rather simple: Pettine has a different group of players, with talent frontloaded at different positions. The Jets had Revis, and whether you like him or not, he's a very talented CB, and they had a pair of very talented Safeties (Landry and Bell). Their talent was in their secondary, so it could be possible that Pettine felt he was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, which would explain why he would be willing to move to Buffalo where he could use Kyle and Mario Williams and Dareus. You mean the Bills avoided signing a group of linebackers on the wrong side of 30 and a safety who got paid much more than he was worth? I'm happier with who we got. this
BringBackFergy Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Is anyone here seriously worried about Pettine after watching our circa-1993 "Fan-stache-tic" style defense last year??
hondo in seattle Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 I suppose you could look at yards per attempt, completion percentage against and total yards on passing plays? 2009: 5.4 ypa (1st overall), 51.7% (1st overall) and 2459 (1st overall) 2010: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 50.7% (1st overall) and 3210 (6th overall) 2011: 6.7 ypa (6th overall), 54.2% (6th overall) and 3216 (5th overall) 2012: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 53.8% (2nd overall) and 3036 (2nd overall) 2009 was obviously the best year for the Jests but in 2010, with Rex still in charge, the numbers dropped then stayed the same in 2011 when Pettine took over. In 2012 the numbers started to improve again. Good research. I don't care how "aggressive" Pettine is as measured by blitzes. I care whether he can run an effective defense. Based on his experience in New York, it seems he can though we won't know for sure until he has time out of Rex's shadow here with the Bills.
jimmy10 Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 As for Pettine making a "mysterious lateral move" -- there's nothing mysterious about it. Being a DC under Rex has to be the equivalent of being an OC under Bill Walsh. Impossible to make a name for yourself. There's also something to be said for leaving a faltering program for the chance to help resurrect a once-proud franchise. Stepping out of Rexy's considerable shadow (in more ways than one) and taking on a challenge like the Bills is a bold and good career move, in my opinion. Now let's just hope it works.
Lurker Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Part of that might be in part due to injuries and aging vets... just a thought. They got a bit long in the tooth as I recall, especially on defense, didn't they? Perhaps easier to game plan against as well. Schemes get stale, players get older, the opponents get smarter. It's the natural law of the jungle / NFL. That said, I'd rather our defense play like old tigers than a young rabbits...
The Big Cat Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Bills fans should not ignore the potential red flags on Pettine: The lateral move. No former players signed during FA. The public criticisms from Rex. That said: IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAD. I know that's a terribly low bar to set, but if Wanny hadn't had one of the league's worst seasons as a DC on record (I'm not even being hyperbolic when I say that), then Gailey and Fitz would still have their jobs in Buffalo. I know it's now common knowledge among Bills fans, but I don't truly believe we fully understand just how awful last year's scheme was. Anything would be an improvement. And even in spite of some question marks, Pettine looks to be a significant improvement.
eball Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 There's also something to be said for leaving a faltering program for the chance to help resurrect a once-proud franchise. Stepping out of Rexy's considerable shadow (in more ways than one) and taking on a challenge like the Bills is a bold and good career move, in my opinion. Now let's just hope it works. And by switching teams within the same division, I'm sure Pettine thought about the opportunity he will have to "stick it" to his mentor twice a year. Not in a spiteful way, but in a "look who's all grown up now" sort of way.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Buffalo Rumblings did a three part tape review on Pettine's D in 2012 awhile back and they mentioned this, that his actual blitz percentage isn't awfully high. The way I remember the Giants disrupting what Brady was trying to do wasn't with a ton of blitzes, the key was that they were able to generate pressure from their front four, so they could pressure and cover at the same time. If you can generate pressure without blitzing, to me that's inherently better than being forced to bring extra defenders consistently. The Giants did it with a host of athletic pass rushing DLmen that could win one on one matchups. Pettine seemingly was able to generate a sufficient pass rush without the benefit of that kind of personnel, and without resorting to blitzing constantly and taking people out of coverage. I don't think aggressiveness has to mean blitzing all the time, it can mean bringing people into the box so the defense doesn't know who's coming and who isn't. Pettine at times would line up with all 11 defenders within 8 yards of the line of scrimmage. I think if you show blitz just enough that they have to be worried about it, and show you're willing to blitz any player, bringing people up to the line can cause panic and confusion even if the actual blitz percentage isn't off the charts. The offense just doesn't know what to expect. Maybe I've got my homer glasses on but I think we're gonna be happy with this hire. We'll see. Edited June 17, 2013 by J-Gun Boone
NoSaint Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 I suppose you could look at yards per attempt, completion percentage against and total yards on passing plays? 2009: 5.4 ypa (1st overall), 51.7% (1st overall) and 2459 (1st overall) 2010: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 50.7% (1st overall) and 3210 (6th overall) 2011: 6.7 ypa (6th overall), 54.2% (6th overall) and 3216 (5th overall) 2012: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 53.8% (2nd overall) and 3036 (2nd overall) 2009 was obviously the best year for the Jests but in 2010, with Rex still in charge, the numbers dropped then stayed the same in 2011 when Pettine took over. In 2012 the numbers started to improve again. what muddles it up is that if taken at face value - rex was often taking duties away from him. truly what was happening behind closed doors year to year, or even week to week is a bit hazy. definitely reasons for us to be optimistic, but there are also some real unknowns with him. im leaning towards the optimism but trying to temper expectations a bit.
K-9 Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 An ESPN blurb I picked up via PFT this morning seems to imply criticism of Bills new DC Mike Pettine. Ironically the criticism is that the Jets defense was not aggressive enough over the last two seasons when Pettine assumed a larger role in the defensive play calling. Considering that the Bills D seemed to be blitz crazy during OTAs and minicamp this offseason, the allegations seem strange to say the least. But apparently the statistics back up the claims: http://espn.go.com/b...rand-of-defense The statistics don't lie. Here's a breakdown of the Jets' blitz percentage (5+ pass rushers) over the past four seasons, according to ESPN Stats & Information: 52.4 percent in '09 (first in NFL), 44.7 percent in '10 (third), 32.8 percent in '11 (12th) and 34.0 percent in '12 (11th). Detect a trend? In fairness to Pettine, he lost the top corner in football, Darrelle Revis, which may have caused him to become more cautious. Yet when I mentioned that alibi to two players, they shot it down, saying Antonio Cromartie capably replaced Revis as the No. 1 corner. I'll say this: The defense will be fun to watch in 2013. The piece also mentions Pettine's "mysterious lateral move to become the Bills' DC." Who replaced Cromartie as the #2? That defense has always been predicated on two good CBs playing. And their safety play wasn't as good, either the last two seasons. Not to mention, the offensive formations are going to dictate what you CAN do much of the time. I'd be willing to bet there was a corresponding increase in the number of multiple WR sets as well. GO BILLS!!!
Coach Tuesday Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 There continues to be a misconception here about what the Jets D does. A blitz by definition is sending more rushers than there are blockers. According to that definition, the Jets D has never blitzed much. Rather, the Jets D is designed to confuse the blockers by disguising where the rush is coming from. The result often looks like a blitz to the naked eye, but in reality, there aren't more rushers than blockers.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Not in denial here, but amidst all the concern one fact should be recognized. The jets d under Pettine's system starting in 2009 finished first, third, fifth and eighth in the league. This is with an arguably aging core, net talent deterioration and some key injuries. If the BIlls defense plays anywhere near a top 10 defense this season, it could be the most drastic turn around in franchise history. So before folks get worked up over jets fans grumbling that their more conservative D with Pettine play calling, was 8th and 5th vs first and third, it is important to think about how incredible 15th would seem after what has been endured over the past 4 years.
HankBulloughMellencamp Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Bills fans should not ignore the potential red flags on Pettine: The lateral move. No former players signed during FA. The public criticisms from Rex. That said: IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAD. Can't argue point 1, but point 3 plays into this one a bit. On point 2, whether or not LB Marcus Dowtin amounts to anything in Buffalo remains to be seen, but he is an ex-Jet, albeit very low-profile. And regarding point 3, I remember when some NY reporters were interviewing Rex about Pettine's contract being up and the possibility of him taking another job, and Rex's response was sort of like 'If he does, he does,' but I distinctly remember his quote ... "I just hope it's not Buffalo." Sexy Rexy was/is in full-fledged save-his-arse mode, so the jumping of ship to a new staff is understandable as to why a guy like Pettine would go laterally. How Rex managed to stay on after laying a sizeable enough egg that brought about a GM change in NY is just beyond me. And I totally agree with your summary statement in CAPS.
Ralph W. Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Bills fans should not ignore the potential red flags on Pettine: The lateral move. No former players signed during FA. The public criticisms from Rex. That said: IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAD. I know that's a terribly low bar to set, but if Wanny hadn't had one of the league's worst seasons as a DC on record (I'm not even being hyperbolic when I say that), then Gailey and Fitz would still have their jobs in Buffalo. I know it's now common knowledge among Bills fans, but I don't truly believe we fully understand just how awful last year's scheme was. Anything would be an improvement. And even in spite of some question marks, Pettine looks to be a significant improvement. 1. Where would he have gone? He went from being under a HC to now running the whole defense that doesn't seem lateral. 2. Who would we have grabbed? 3. Rex is saying anything b.c his job is on the line this year.
shoretalk Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Let me see ... Rex brought in a certain Aaron Maybe thinking he would help the Jets (oops, some other team did draft him #1) defense ... truthfully, it was not the Jets' defense that led to their collapse it was the Ryan-inspired offense that included messing repeatedly with your starting quarterback's head. Believe me I am not complaining one bit but to whine about the lack of blitzing from the DC is just silly. Others have said it here but the Jets' D and this season's Bills' D is not about the number of blitzes but it is tied to disguising the fronts so that the OL has no idea who is coming and who is dropping into coverage. A blitz is by definition increasing the number of individual players rushing a passing quarterback, which therefore decreases those covering receivers. Placing a Mario Williams over a center in a passing situation rather than having him rushing from one frozen line spot with a hand down (ala Dave W) is not a blitz it is a creative defense. Who cares whether we need Bradham or a safety or a corner on blitz 5 times a game versus are we creating such confusion with our creative use of personnel that the other team is forced off the field. The following stats show that nothing much changes after REX officially gave up the play calling on D. I suppose you could look at yards per attempt, completion percentage against and total yards on passing plays? 2009: 5.4 ypa (1st overall), 51.7% (1st overall) and 2459 (1st overall) 2010: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 50.7% (1st overall) and 3210 (6th overall) 2011: 6.7 ypa (6th overall), 54.2% (6th overall) and 3216 (5th overall) 2012: 6.5 ypa (6th overall), 53.8% (2nd overall) and 3036 (2nd overall) 2009 was obviously the best year for the Jests but in 2010, with Rex still in charge, the numbers dropped then stayed the same in 2011 when Pettine took over. In 2012 the numbers started to improve again.
The Big Cat Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 So before folks get worked up over jets fans grumbling that their more conservative D with Pettine play calling, was 8th and 5th vs first and third, it is important to think about how incredible 15th would seem after what has been endured over the past 4 years. Precisely the point I was trying to make. Why should Bills fans be concerned with the chance that our defense might only be top-10 rather than top-5 when, for the last two years, a top-20 defense would have gotten us to the playoffs and a top-25 d would have at least given us a chance. If we even crack top-15, we'll be SIGNIFICANTLY better. If we crack top-10, we'll be a surefire playoff contender. If we crack top-5, we'll be division champs. (You heard it here first.) So why would we be concerned if Pettine can only get us to 8th!?
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