Overrated Owner and Organization

[San Jose Bills Fan]

1. They have more ex-Patriot Patriot boosters on ESPN and NFL Network that any other team. Example Health Evans, Willie McGinest, Teddy Bruski. Everytime I watch football analysis shows on those networks, one of those three, sometimes two at the same time, are making some Patriots are the greatest comments. Makes me sick. Then there's Peter King, the unashamed flaming Patriot booster/principle writer for SI. With those four, there is more Patriot propaganda thrown our way than anything we get from any other team. The latest was Evan's rant that Tebow will become great under Bilichick. Enough already with crap like "the Patriot way". How well has that defensive genious Belichick done over the past six years drafting corners and safetys? He's known those positions were week for sometime and has drafted a bunch. But most have failed. Yet failure and Belichick are never mentioned in the same sentence. Fire those ex-Patriots and get some honest unbiased analysts on those shows.

 

While I agree the Cheatriots*** are a perennially strong team in a large media market, these are very good, legit points and part of the reason they are so insufferable.

 

Theres good reason for that

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lNkyS9dBnM

[MattM]

Great head coaches tend to find great QB's.

 

So I would be surprised all all to see the Patriots keep winning without Tom Brady. Rememeber the year the lost him for 15 games, and still went 11-5.

 

With a team that went 18-1 the prior year, so that seems to show that Brady alone may be worth 5 or more wins a year. Extrapolate that to their more recent seasons and you get 8-8 or 7-9 without him....

[3rdand12]

With a team that went 18-1 the prior year, so that seems to show that Brady alone may be worth 5 or more wins a year. Extrapolate that to their more recent seasons and you get 8-8 or 7-9 without him....

The thing i dont understand about the Patriots is that they are hanging their proverbial Hat on Brady. No GM worth his salt would not have a rebuild on his mind .

If Brady is worth 5 more wins , and i think he is all of that , what happens when he goes down for the season or reaches his NFL end decisively ?

The Pats really appear to be riding this horse to the bitter end . From where i stand, it looks like ..when senorita Brady is done suddenly,.. Patriots dynasty.. el finito .

any thoughts ?

sjbf i would never ever mock you. probably never. okay sometimes

 

To infinity and beyond

go bills

Edited June 16, 2013 by 3rdand12

[San Jose Bills Fan]

sjbf i would never ever mock you. probably never. okay sometimes

 

There you go again!

[BillsVet]

With a team that went 18-1 the prior year, so that seems to show that Brady alone may be worth 5 or more wins a year. Extrapolate that to their more recent seasons and you get 8-8 or 7-9 without him....

 

Kinda like 2008 when the Brady-less Patriots proceeded to go 11-5 with Matt Cassel quarterbacking them?

[MattM]

 

 

Kinda like 2008 when the Brady-less Patriots proceeded to go 11-5 with Matt Cassel quarterbacking them?

 

That's what I was referencing in my post. Remember that the 2007 team was 18-1, so Brady may be good for up to 7 wins on his own, 5 in the regular season. Extrapolate that to the 12-4 team last year and you get 7-9. Imperfect methodology here? Yes, but you get the point.....

[ganesh]

I plead guilty to being a Patriot hater, but with that disclaimer, I still think Kraft and his Patriots organization is overrated. Kraft gets all of this positive publicity from the media, and I just don't see it. We don't praise a guy who buys a winning lottery ticket for being a financial genius; and drafting a QB in the 6th round and having him turn out to be a Hall of Famer is akin to buying a winning lottery ticket - just luck. Before and/ or without Brady, Kraft's team was a mediocrity.

 

And spare me the talk of Kraft the great humanitarian. Ever go to a Patriots game? Despite the fact that Kraft has more money than his children's children's children will ever be able to spend, he sticks it to the average fan by charging absolute top dollar from everything from parking to concessions. Not because he needs the money, but just because he can. So spare us the talk of the great and generous Robert Kraft.

 

I don't think Kraft deserves credit for picking a HOF QB in the 6th Round. However, it is what he has done in the decade since winning the lottery that deserves the credit. He has astutely managed the Salary cap, including not being pushed to make Brady the highest paid QB in the league. Along with Belichek they have made decisions (some of them cold) that are best for the team. The Patriots are the hottest ticket in town and for that Kraft deserves praise for having turned that franchise around.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Pats won the lottery and there is no doubt about it. You pick and eventual HOFer in the first round, you drafted well, you get one in the sixth, and you won the lottery.

 

Coming out Brady had less physical talent than losman, Trenty, and a long list of others. It was his own internal drive, passionate personal commitment to winning, moxie and tireless work to be the best that made him succeed.

 

It's like joe Montana where a very average physical specimen had all the intangibles to make him elite nfl qb. No one, no one saw the raw materials in Brady as a prospect, to develop him into what he is today, and bellicheck can try but any credit he tries to claim can be refuted handily with the numerous examples of underachieving qb's in his wake of various nfl coaching roles.

Edited June 16, 2013 by over 20 years of fanhood

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Belichick was predominantly a defensive coach for the vast majority of his NFL career. It's only been in the last 10 years that he's slowly made the shift towards coaching the offense.

 

I don't think Brady would be Brady without Belichick just as I don't think Montana would have been Montana without Bill Walsh.

 

In both cases there was a synergy between player and coach IMO.

[WIDE LEFT]

Belichick was predominantly a defensive coach for the vast majority of his NFL career. It's only been in the last 10 years that he's slowly made the shift towards coaching the offense.

 

I don't think Brady would be Brady without Belichick just as I don't think Montana would have been Montana without Bill Walsh.

 

In both cases there was a synergy between player and coach IMO.

 

Well, Belichick is a defensive coach and has been his entire career. He never coached an offense. He has nothing to do with Brady's greatness, just as Marv Levy had zero to do with Kelly's greatness.

 

And by the way, defensive genius Belichick has had some of the worst NFL defenses in the ast several years.

[first_and_ten]

I disagree.

 

Belichick's time in Cleveland is typically misunderstood and misrepresented.

 

I think Belichick is just as instrumental in the Cheatriots*** success as Brady is.

 

But the point is about Kraft and his guidance of the team. In fact Kraft gave up a first round pick in order to pry Belichick away from the Jets.

 

 

Explain how belecheat's time with the Browns is misunderstood and misrepresented. Seems to me he was fired.

 

Um, actually no, I completely disagree with you. The union of Brady and Belichek was the cause for Brady's rise to greatness. There's no doubt in my mind Brady would not have succeeded anywhere other than New England. There's a reason he was a sixth round draft pick. Yeah, he had fire, and is intelligent, but without Belichek and his system/mindset, Brady would have flamed out with any other team.

 

Totally disagree.. to say Brady is a product of a system is utter folly

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Belichick was predominantly a defensive coach for the vast majority of his NFL career. It's only been in the last 10 years that he's slowly made the shift towards coaching the offense.

 

I don't think Brady would be Brady without Belichick just as I don't think Montana would have been Montana without Bill Walsh.

 

In both cases there was a synergy between player and coach IMO.

 

Well, Belichick is a defensive coach and has been his entire career. He never coached an offense. He has nothing to do with Brady's greatness, just as Marv Levy had zero to do with Kelly's greatness.

 

And by the way, defensive genius Belichick has had some of the worst NFL defenses in the ast several years.

 

So are you saying I'm lying or just misinformed?

 

 

Belichick might have become famous in the 1980s for his Super Bowl-winning defenses, but within the New York Giants' offices, he was renowned for spotting plays run by the 49ers and Redskins, tailoring them to New York's personnel and suggesting them to offensive coordinator Ron Erhardt. In his spare time, he put together an offensive playbook, borrowing and tweaking plays from other teams, and inventing his own.

 

"Philosophically, I knew what I wanted to do if I ever got a chance to be a head coach," he said.

When that chance arrived, he was ready. At various times as the Cleveland Browns' head coach, Belichick called the offensive plays. And that's the side of the ball with which he's been heavily involved in New England.

 

It's partly due to necessity. Quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbein died in 2001, and then-offensive coordinator Charlie Weis almost died due to gastric bypass surgery complications in 2002. But it's mostly because Belichick knows offense. He's met with his quarterbacks privately at least three times a week for nine years. That's why, after Josh McDaniels left New England to coach the Denver Broncos, Tom Brady said, "As long as we have Belichick, I always think that we're going to be just fine."

 

With assistants constantly leaving the Pats for other teams, Belichick takes it upon himself to sharpen New England's edge. Half of his offensive playbook is different now than when he arrived in 2000. That's why he visits Nick Saban in Alabama once a year to talk defense, then Urban Meyer in Florida to chat offense. Last year, Belichick was eager to learn about the Gators' "empty" pass protections; afterward, he adjusted them to his team.

 

For instance, in a victory over the Miami Dolphins last season, the Patriots ran the shotgun 80 times, using only five blockers on 19 snaps.

 

"He's a defensive mind," Meyer says, "who's adapted the offensive game."

 

http://sports.espn.g...seth&id=4443119

 

This is one of many stories out there on the subject. Belichick has been the Cheatriots*** OC and play caller for years now. He's designed and installed the offenses New England runs and is solely responsible for the Two Tight End attack which is their base offense and is starting to be emulated league-wide. He's also been the play caller for most of the past 8 years dating to 2005 when Charlie Weiss left the team.

 

In that 2005 season the team hired no replacement for Weis and had no OC by title. The following season Belichick named his protege, Josh McDaniels (who was a DEFENSIVE COACH on the team for 3 seasons) his "Offensive Coordinator."

 

When McDaniels left to become Denver's Head Coach, Belichick didn't bother naming an offensive coordinator for 2009 or for the 2010 season. In 2011 Belichick named Bill O'Brien as his offensive coordinator. In 2012 McDaniels returned to the team and was given the offensive coordinator title.

 

Close followers of the NFL and the Cheatriots know that Belichick is the offensive coordinator for his team and has been for years.

 

I hate the Cheatriots*** as much as the next guy but don't let your hatred get in the way of the truth (good disclaimer though).

Edited June 17, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Explain how belecheat's time with the Browns is misunderstood and misrepresented. Seems to me he was fired.

 

A guy is fired so that automatically invalidates the remainder of his career? Is that your position?

 

If you care to know what my opinion is based on, watch this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEU2xcJOFw

 

To say he was fired so he's overrated as a coach is a gross oversimplification. There's a reason that most NFL people consider him the greatest coach of his generation.

 

Again I hate the Cheatriots*** but not to the point where I'll disregard the truth.

[first_and_ten]

A guy is fired so that automatically invalidates the remainder of his career? Is that your position?

 

If you care to know what my opinion is based on, watch this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEU2xcJOFw

 

To say he was fired so he's overrated as a coach is a gross oversimplification. There's a reason that most NFL people consider him the greatest coach of his generation.

 

Again I hate the Cheatriots*** but not to the point where I'll disregard the truth.

 

You're going to explain to me your position by trying to torture me with a 45 minute video of Belicheat? LOL ....Can't you explain your position in a brief paragraph or two? Belichick's firing in Cleveland was aptly called "the reign of error" by one of Cleveland's sports writers. How can Belichick be so good in New England and so bad in Cleveland? In my humble opinion, it's Tom Brady. Belichick did nothing of consequence until Brady took over. Also, don't discount the cheating that Belichick was a part of that influenced the outcome of superbowls and quite possibly other important games. I cannot in all honestly say a guy who blantantly cheated is the best coach of all time. How many superbowls have they won since the cheating? None!! I could easily argue Chuck Knoll, Don Schula, Tom Landry , Vince Lonbardi and others as the best coach of all time. A cheater will never get my vote. Sorry he get's yours. Would you say Barry Bonds is the best baseball player of all time? Probably not after the cheating. Take Brady from the Pats, and Belechick is just another coach. I do admit he made adjustments after being fired. he did learn and adjust. I think his failures in Cleveland also is a reason he resorted to cheating. He was so afraid of failure, he cheated.

Edited June 17, 2013 by first_and_ten

[San Jose Bills Fan]

You're going to explain to me your position by trying to torture me with a 45 minute video of Belicheat? LOL ....Can't you explain your position in a brief paragraph or two? Belichick's firing in Cleveland was aptly called "the reign of error" by one Cleveland's sports writers. How can Belichick be so good in New England and so bad in Cleveland? In my humble opinion, it's Tom Brady. Belichick did nothing of consequence until Brady took over. Also, don't discount the cheating that Belichick was a part of that influenced the outcome of superbowls and quite possibly othe important games. I cannot in all honestly say a guy who blantantly cheated is the best coach of all time. How many superbowls have they won since the cheating? None!! I could easily argue Chuck Knoll, Don Schula, Tom Landry , Vince lonbardi and others as the best coach of all time. A cheater will never get my vote. Sorry he get's yours. Would you say Barry Bonds is the best baseball player of all time? Probably not after the cheating. Take Brady from the Pats, and Belechick is just another coach. I do admit he made adjustments after being fired. he did learn and adjust. I think his failures in Cleveland also is a reason he resorted to cheating. He was so sfraid of failure, he cheated.

 

Where to start?

 

1) You invalidated Belichick's entire career in one sentence so I'm supposed to devote paragraphs in refuting you? I had already put more work into my posts than you did.

 

2) I never said "greatest of all time." I said that he's considered by most to be the greatest of his generation. I never compared him to Lombardi, Landry, etc.

 

3) The Cleveland sports writers would of course call it the" Reign of Error." Belichick's standing with the media hasn't changed at all. It's not about his popularity with the media, it's about his football team's performance.

 

4) Upon close examination of his time in Cleveland if you're honest you'll find that he did a good coaching job there and that his "failure" there is overstated. If you want to disagree that's fine.

 

5) Yes Belichick is a cheater and as I already mentioned, I hate him and his team. That said I don't completely dismiss his entire body of work due to that reason. Rather, I attempt to account for that in evaluating his work.

 

6) I'm not gonna attempt to play psychologist here. I don't know what his motivations are but I think Belichick is a bad person and an excellent coach.

 

7) Again, I don't think Tom Brady has the same success he's had without his association with Belichick.

[ko12010]

Where to start?

 

1) You invalidated Belichick's entire career in one sentence so I'm supposed to devote paragraphs in refuting you? I had already put more work into my posts than you did.

 

2) I never said "greatest of all time." I said that he's considered by most to be the greatest of his generation. I never compared him to Lombardi, Landry, etc.

 

3) The Cleveland sports writers would of course call it the" Reign of Error." Belichick's standing with the media hasn't changed at all. It's not about his popularity with the media, it's about his football team's performance.

 

4) Upon close examination of his time in Cleveland if you're honest you'll find that he did a good coaching job there and that his "failure" there is overstated. If you want to disagree that's fine.

 

5) Yes Belichick is a cheater and as I already mentioned, I hate him and his team. That said I don't completely dismiss his entire body of work due to that reason. Rather, I attempt to account for that in evaluating his work.

 

6) I'm not gonna attempt to play psychologist here. I don't know what his motivations are but I think Belichick is a bad person and an excellent coach.

 

7) Again, I don't think Tom Brady has the same success he's had without his association with Belichick.

This is so obvious it's scary

[Gugny]

I plead guilty to being a Patriot hater, but with that disclaimer, I still think Kraft and his Patriots organization is overrated. Kraft gets all of this positive publicity from the media, and I just don't see it. We don't praise a guy who buys a winning lottery ticket for being a financial genius; and drafting a QB in the 6th round and having him turn out to be a Hall of Famer is akin to buying a winning lottery ticket - just luck. Before and/ or without Brady, Kraft's team was a mediocrity.

 

And spare me the talk of Kraft the great humanitarian. Ever go to a Patriots game? Despite the fact that Kraft has more money than his children's children's children will ever be able to spend, he sticks it to the average fan by charging absolute top dollar from everything from parking to concessions. Not because he needs the money, but just because he can. So spare us the talk of the great and generous Robert Kraft.

Nine times out of ten, when a fan of a team that sucks calls a successful team, "overrated," it really just means, "Damn, I'm jealous that that other team is so good when my team sucks so bad!"

 

This is one of the nine.

 

[first_and_ten]

Where to start?

 

1) You invalidated Belichick's entire career in one sentence so I'm supposed to devote paragraphs in refuting you? I had already put more work into my posts than you did.

 

2) I never said "greatest of all time." I said that he's considered by most to be the greatest of his generation. I never compared him to Lombardi, Landry, etc.

 

3) The Cleveland sports writers would of course call it the" Reign of Error." Belichick's standing with the media hasn't changed at all. It's not about his popularity with the media, it's about his football team's performance.

 

4) Upon close examination of his time in Cleveland if you're honest you'll find that he did a good coaching job there and that his "failure" there is overstated. If you want to disagree that's fine.

 

5) Yes Belichick is a cheater and as I already mentioned, I hate him and his team. That said I don't completely dismiss his entire body of work due to that reason. Rather, I attempt to account for that in evaluating his work.

 

6) I'm not gonna attempt to play psychologist here. I don't know what his motivations are but I think Belichick is a bad person and an excellent coach.

 

7) Again, I don't think Tom Brady has the same success he's had without his association with Belichick.

 

You must have missed the LOL. I clearly knew you wouldn't devote paragraphs to refuting me. Throwing a Belichick video up there doesn't exactly refute things. You say many condider him the greatest coach of his generation. Does this include you, or do you just think he's a very good coach? Because, after the cheating he has not won a superbowl. Do the coaches who have won superbowls without the cheating in his generation deserve to be called better coaches? Think about it. Do the patriots win those superbowls without cheating? The NFL would have us all believe the cheating doesn't really matter. Burn the tapes and hope everyone forgets so that the good name of the NFL is not smeared by a cheat. They suspend Payton for a year for what he did because it hurts the integrity of the game. I would say what Belicheat did was far worse. Yet he seems to get a pass. When the reporter offered that ststement about Belechick's time in cleveland, it was about the team's performance. If losing in Cleveland is called a good coaching job, maybe the Bills should have kept Dick Jauron. If he had Brady in Cleveland, I'm sure he would have won there too. You take the cheating in account as part of his work. He should have been thrown out of the league. He stole superbowls from more deserving teams. And clearly Belichick doesn't have near the success without his association with Brady

Edited June 17, 2013 by first_and_ten

[San Jose Bills Fan]

You must have missed the LOL. I clearly knew you wouldn't devote paragraphs to refuting me. Throwing a Belichick video up there doesn't exactly refute things. You say many condider him the greatest coach of his generation. Does this include you, or do you just think he's a very good coach? Because, after the cheating he has not won a superbowl. Do the coaches who have won superbowls without the cheating in his generation deserve to be called better coaches? Think about it. Do the patriots win those superbowls without cheating? The NFL would have us all believe the cheating doesn't really matter. Burn the tapes and hope everyone forgets so that the good name of the NFL is not smeared by a cheat. They suspend Payton for a year for what he did because it hurts the integrity of the game. I would say what Belicheat did was far worse. Yet he seems to get a pass. When the reporter offered that ststement about Belechick's time in cleveland, it was about the team's performance. If losing in Cleveland is called a good coaching job, maybe the Bills should have kept Dick Jauron. If he had Brady in Cleveland, I'm sure he would have won there too. You take the cheating in account as part of his work. He should have been thrown out of the league. He stole superbowls from more deserving teams. And clearly Belichick doesn't have near the success without his association with Brady

 

This has gotten a bit blown out of proportion.

 

My point from the start is that I believe that Belichick has been very instrumental in Brady's development and that Brady wouldn't be the player he is today without Belichick.

 

On numerous occasions I've cited the cheating and lack of Super Bowl victories since the cheating was exposed as serious tarnish on Belichick's reputation because the margin between victory and defeat is typically much thinner than most people believe, IMO.

[Mr. WEO]

Pats won the lottery and there is no doubt about it. You pick and eventual HOFer in the first round, you drafted well, you get one in the sixth, and you won the lottery.

 

Coming out Brady had less physical talent than losman, Trenty, and a long list of others. It was his own internal drive, passionate personal commitment to winning, moxie and tireless work to be the best that made him succeed.

 

It's like joe Montana where a very average physical specimen had all the intangibles to make him elite nfl qb. No one, no one saw the raw materials in Brady as a prospect, to develop him into what he is today, and bellicheck can try but any credit he tries to claim can be refuted handily with the numerous examples of underachieving qb's in his wake of various nfl coaching roles.

 

So Brady was a HOFer in the 6th round? The logic is baffling. They picked a guy with questionable ability and brought out the best in him. Why wouldn't they get credit for that?

 

Montana, a guy who had a legendary college career was also an "underachieving QB"? He fell to the 3rd round because scouts downplayed his physical attributes.

Patriots last were Champions February 6, 2005

 

Since then, both the Steelers and Giants have won the Super Bowl twice.

 

 

The Patriots are a very good team year in and year out, but they have long since passed the Dynasty stage.

 

and the media continues to over-rate them, yes.

 

Having ESPN down the street contributes to this..........................

 

 

 

.

 

Bristol is closer to NYC than Boston.

 

 

1. They have more ex-Patriot Patriot boosters on ESPN and NFL Network that any other team. Example Health Evans, Willie McGinest, Teddy Bruski. Everytime I watch football analysis shows on those networks, one of those three, sometimes two at the same time, are making some Patriots are the greatest comments. Makes me sick. Then there's Peter King, the unashamed flaming Patriot booster/principle writer for SI. With those four, there is more Patriot propaganda thrown our way than anything we get from any other team. The latest was Evan's rant that Tebow will become great under Bilichick. Enough already with crap like "the Patriot way". How well has that defensive genious Belichick done over the past six years drafting corners and safetys? He's known those positions were week for sometime and has drafted a bunch. But most have failed. Yet failure and Belichick are never mentioned in the same sentence. Fire those ex-Patriots and get some honest unbiased analysts on those shows.

 

2. Yes, I do.

 

"Health Evans"?? Evans played on 4 different teams in his career. Can you link me to one instance where he made you sick with "the Patriots are the best" comments? Or McGinest?

 

And Bruschi's most famous quote about the pats was him going off on Ocho Cinco after OC said he was "in awe" of Brady.

 

If those 3 make you sick, you must be absolutely dying over the Cowboys' Jimmy Johnson, Daryl Johnston, Irvin, Emmit Smith, Troy Aikman...