LabattBlue Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 No offense, but I shall be going on a rant that will include most of my Bills brothers in this thread.... Your criticism is unfounded. Were you at MWSF? Did you read the reports from there? I'm guessing no... Flash-based players had 62% of the market in 2003 - the iPod mini reduced that to 29%. Now, Apple has targeted the remaining 29% who see a value in extremely small devices. They DID NOT claim to reinvent the wheel. They ARE expanding their product line to appeal to users who have different needs. Considering Apple is kicking the absolute SNOT out of every single competitor in this area - with higher prices - maybe pausing to actually evaluate their new product would be worthwhile. 202026[/snapback] Easy SDS. I like my CreativeLabs muvo mp3 player w/fm receiver and display over an Apple one that has neither. No big deal. Just my opinion. PS I did read the review that was part of the first post in this thread.
SDS Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 Easy SDS. I like my CreativeLabs muvo mp3 player w/fm receiver and display over an Apple one that has neither. No big deal. Just my opinion. PS I did read the review that was part of the first post in this thread. 202047[/snapback] http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ in case you want to actually see it. How in God's green Earth do you know you like something better if you haven't even seen a picture of it? Or put it in your hands to feel the quality (or lack of). There is no problem in liking what you have, but criticizing Apple for doing market research and seeing how people actually use their flash players and putting out what they feel is a better product is silly. Would you like to place a bet on Apple's market share of flash based players in the future?
bobblehead Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 Did you see the Mini Mac today? 6.5" diameter PC starting at $499 (no monitor, keyboard, mouse). Great for the entry-level crowd - mom would dig it.
SDS Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 http://www.apple.com/hardware/gallery/ipod...an2005_480.html to see a spinning view
LabattBlue Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/ in case you want to actually see it. How in God's green Earth do you know you like something better if you haven't even seen a picture of it? Or put it in your hands to feel the quality (or lack of). There is no problem in likking what you have, but criticizing Apple for doing market research and seeing how people actually use their flash players and putting out what they feel is a better product is silly. Would you like to place a bet on Apple's market share of flash based players in the future? 202054[/snapback] I did see it already. There is a picture of it in one of the earlier links posted in this thread. So I said that "Apple is not reinventing the wheel". Who cares. It's just my opinion. I don't really care who ends up with the market share in the future. If it's Apple, great for them and everyone who owns their stock.
SDS Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 512MB is nothing.... For double that price, you can get the 20gig iPod, which holds roughly 40 times the amount as the $99 one. 201881[/snapback] and which would be better to wear around your neck while running on a treadmill? My wife will love this. She only wants to have one for exercising...
SDS Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I did see it already. There is a picture of it in one of the earlier links posted in this thread. So I said that "Apple is not reinventing the wheel". Who cares. It's just my opinion. I don't really care who ends up with the market share in the future. If it's Apple, great for them and everyone who owns their stock. 202060[/snapback] I didn't see that link... I guess I fail to see why people jump to criticise a new product that hasn't even been test driven yet.
LabattBlue Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I guess I fail to see why people jump to criticise a new product that hasn't even been test driven yet. 202078[/snapback] My comments are probably caused in part because just last month I spent the same amount of money on the muvo player and now it's too late for me to consider this player. Timing is everything!
Fezmid Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 You know, perhaps you should look at why Apple has 70% of the market with higher prices than their competitors? You know SDS, you really shouldn't use market share as proof of *anything.* Microsoft has what, 95% of the desktop market? Does that mean their product rocks? No, not really... Most people buy iPods because Apple does a great job marketing and people don't know that there are other options out there to choose from. I even find myself calling my Dell DJ an iPod from time to time (sorta like a kleenex or Xerox machine). If they do know the difference, they may pick iPod because they"look cool" and having one is a status symbol. Seriously, high school kids (for example) aren't "cool" if they have a Dell DJ as opposed to an iPod. Doesn't mean the iPod is "better," only means it's marketed better. I will say that the UI on the iPod is very nice. But I'm not paying double the price for a nice UI. Longer battery life is more important IMHO. I read you drive a Camry. Was that the cheapest car you could find? Couldn't you have purchased a KIA? I mean afterall - a car is only 4 wheels, an engine, and a couple of seats wrapped in sheet metal... Looking at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), the Camry isn't really that much more expensive than the KIA that breaks down all the time... But overall, your car vs MP3 player comparison doesn't really hold up at all. There's much more to a car than 4 wheels, an engine, and a couple of seats wrapped in sheet metal. There's the size of the car, the power of the engine (try towing with a KIA), how long it holds up, etc. Nobody is saying that an iPod is going to last twice as longa s a Dell DJ. Nobody's saying that you can store more music on an iPod. A better comparison is "Why'd you buy leather seats in your Camry when the cloth ones would work fine?" It's all cosmetic, and that's the only difference you get with the iPod. I'm not bashing the product; it's well engineered. But there ARE other much cheaper alternatives out there. You don't have to buy into the Apple marketing machine. CW
Fezmid Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I didn't see that link... I guess I fail to see why people jump to criticise a new product that hasn't even been test driven yet. 202078[/snapback] That's because you were too busy attacking my post to actually read what I typed (since I posted the link) CW
Ramius Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 Can you exercise with this? I'm looking for one that can handle how much I sweat when I pt if it's strapped to my arm. 201954[/snapback] yah i can...i keep in on me all the time...if you want me to, i can get home and send you a digital pic of it to show how big it is....lightweight too, but i's guess like 3-4" by 4-5" and maybe an inch think...
SDS Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 You know SDS, you really shouldn't use market share as proof of *anything.* Microsoft has what, 95% of the desktop market? Does that mean their product rocks? No, not really... Most people buy iPods because Apple does a great job marketing and people don't know that there are other options out there to choose from. I even find myself calling my Dell DJ an iPod from time to time (sorta like a kleenex or Xerox machine). If they do know the difference, they may pick iPod because they"look cool" and having one is a status symbol. Seriously, high school kids (for example) aren't "cool" if they have a Dell DJ as opposed to an iPod. Doesn't mean the iPod is "better," only means it's marketed better. I will say that the UI on the iPod is very nice. But I'm not paying double the price for a nice UI. Longer battery life is more important IMHO. Looking at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), the Camry isn't really that much more expensive than the KIA that breaks down all the time... But overall, your car vs MP3 player comparison doesn't really hold up at all. There's much more to a car than 4 wheels, an engine, and a couple of seats wrapped in sheet metal. There's the size of the car, the power of the engine (try towing with a KIA), how long it holds up, etc. Nobody is saying that an iPod is going to last twice as longa s a Dell DJ. Nobody's saying that you can store more music on an iPod. A better comparison is "Why'd you buy leather seats in your Camry when the cloth ones would work fine?" It's all cosmetic, and that's the only difference you get with the iPod. I'm not bashing the product; it's well engineered. But there ARE other much cheaper alternatives out there. You don't have to buy into the Apple marketing machine. CW 202089[/snapback] these arguments are weak. I can use market share in this instance. Apple does not have an installed base in MP3 players, nor even the overwhelming platform of choice to rip your music. The fact that Windows DOES have 95% of the OS market - and Apple is now dominating a segment and a user-base that - all things being equal - they should have no business dominating is evidence of a better product. They have emerged from the pack depsite having none of the inherent advantages. However, things are NOT equal and that is why they are successful. They are putting out a better product from start to finish and people are willing to pay more for a better solution. Again, you can blow off "cosmetic differences" all day long - but excuse those of us who value style and design in their gear. My iPod-mini is BEAUTIFUL with a solid aluminum case that has no seams along the sides. There is value in the engineering. There is value in the design. There is value in the interface. There is value in the integration. There is value in the after-market add-ons. There is value in the end-to-end solution that Apple is providing music lovers and data movers of the world. A car gets you from point A to point B. KIA reference aside, I doubt a Camry is the least expensive car in TCO. So far the only thing I hear from you is Dell=cheap. Well, "cheap" isn't the end all of every purchasing decision.
Fezmid Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 So far the only thing I hear from you is Dell=cheap. Well, "cheap" isn't the end all of every purchasing decision. Cheaper ($150 for 20G), longer battery life (roughly 16-18 hours per charge), and charges over USB. So it doesn't "look" as cool. That's no big deal to me, as they sound the same. I bought an FM transmitter for the DJ (can use it on anything, including in a PC), and it works for my needs -- excercise and car rides. http://www.g4techtv.com/screensavers/featu...Pod_Killer.html The prices are out of date -- not sure how much the iPod costs anymore, but the Dell was $150. To some, the sleek engineering and brand name may be worth it. But again, people should know that the iPod is the most expensive option and that there are other options available. (and I still don't think that, based on the info Apple has shared, the iPod Shuffle is worth it on any level). I can use market share in this instance. Apple does not have an installed base in MP3 players, nor even the overwhelming platform of choice to rip your music. The fact that Windows DOES have 95% of the OS market - and Apple is now dominating a segment and a user-base that - all things being equal - they should have no business dominating is evidence of a better product. I guess we'll agree to disagree that market share means anything in this world. TiVo has, by far, the best PVR product on the face of the planet. However, they're losing share to others (cable PVRs, etc) due to relatively poor marketing. Marketing makes the world go 'round, not great products. And Apple DOES have an installed base of MP3 players; they were first to market (if I recall correctly), so if someone wanted a portable player, they had no choice but to buy an iPod. The word of mouth spread from there, and that's why iPod has market share (amongst other reasons, such as great marketing as I said before). CW
IBTG81 Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 You know SDS, you really shouldn't use market share as proof of *anything.* Microsoft has what, 95% of the desktop market? Does that mean their product rocks? No, not really... Most people buy iPods because Apple does a great job marketing and people don't know that there are other options out there to choose from. I even find myself calling my Dell DJ an iPod from time to time (sorta like a kleenex or Xerox machine). If they do know the difference, they may pick iPod because they"look cool" and having one is a status symbol. Seriously, high school kids (for example) aren't "cool" if they have a Dell DJ as opposed to an iPod. Doesn't mean the iPod is "better," only means it's marketed better. I will say that the UI on the iPod is very nice. But I'm not paying double the price for a nice UI. Longer battery life is more important IMHO. Looking at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), the Camry isn't really that much more expensive than the KIA that breaks down all the time... But overall, your car vs MP3 player comparison doesn't really hold up at all. There's much more to a car than 4 wheels, an engine, and a couple of seats wrapped in sheet metal. There's the size of the car, the power of the engine (try towing with a KIA), how long it holds up, etc. Nobody is saying that an iPod is going to last twice as longa s a Dell DJ. Nobody's saying that you can store more music on an iPod. A better comparison is "Why'd you buy leather seats in your Camry when the cloth ones would work fine?" It's all cosmetic, and that's the only difference you get with the iPod. I'm not bashing the product; it's well engineered. But there ARE other much cheaper alternatives out there. You don't have to buy into the Apple marketing machine. CW 202089[/snapback] Hey Scott, did you just feel that slap on the side of your head that Fezmid just gave you?
SDS Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Cheaper ($150 for 20G), longer battery life (roughly 16-18 hours per charge), and charges over USB. So it doesn't "look" as cool. That's no big deal to me, as they sound the same. I bought an FM transmitter for the DJ (can use it on anything, including in a PC), and it works for my needs -- excercise and car rides. http://www.g4techtv.com/screensavers/featu...Pod_Killer.html The prices are out of date -- not sure how much the iPod costs anymore, but the Dell was $150. To some, the sleek engineering and brand name may be worth it. But again, people should know that the iPod is the most expensive option and that there are other options available. (and I still don't think that, based on the info Apple has shared, the iPod Shuffle is worth it on any level). I guess we'll agree to disagree that market share means anything in this world. TiVo has, by far, the best PVR product on the face of the planet. However, they're losing share to others (cable PVRs, etc) due to relatively poor marketing. Marketing makes the world go 'round, not great products. And Apple DOES have an installed base of MP3 players; they were first to market (if I recall correctly), so if someone wanted a portable player, they had no choice but to buy an iPod. The word of mouth spread from there, and that's why iPod has market share (amongst other reasons, such as great marketing as I said before). CW 202128[/snapback] How come you only choose to present decent arguments when it supports your POV? For as well as you argue the merits for DTV - many of the same arguments that can be made for Apple's products are dismissed out of hand. The iPod can be charged via USB and you can get an 80% charge via firewire in an hour. You keep talking battery life, but you fail to mention your unit is heavier. Hell, Apple can hook this up to a car battery if it was so important. Then it could play for years!!! Apple choose lighter with less battery life. Dell choose heavier with more. Also, you keep talking about marketing, but dollar for dollar - the best marketing Apple has are iPod owners recommending the product to their friends. No way does Apple start, grow, and sustain their dominance in this market selling an inferior SOLUTION at higher prices. This is not scaring IT managers in accepting windows because of hardware replacements, incompatibility w/ customers, etc... This is just music in a young market. Perhaps Apple has a GREAT solution backed by GREAT marketing and SATISFIED customers??? That never seems to enter your discussion. What I hear is: Dell is cheaper... BFD. As for the iPod Shuffle - again, I doubt any of the closed-minded nay-sayers in this thread gave the product a second of thought. Of course it doesn't appeal to you - you turn your nose up at all of Apple's offerings and in particular - their line of music delivery solutions. This new unit is an ACCESSORY to that solution. Why would an accessory appeal to you if you have rejected the heart and soul of their product line? Why does TiVo have the best PVR? A TiVo is only a hard disk, some video ports and a few chips. Don't talk to me about usability, interface, or any of that jazz because you have already rejected such features as unworthy of consideration in your purchasing decision. And lastly, you keep ignoring the huge after-market iPod has. From websites, to gear, to software.... there is value there and you don't bring it up because it isn't suiting your argument at this time.
Nanker Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 SDS. yer a pisser! I love you. Long live Apple! I own more Macs than I do their stock. Would that it were otherwise, now that the wheel is turning.
Fezmid Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 How come you only choose to present decent arguments when it supports your POV? For as well as you argue the merits for DTV - many of the same arguments that can be made for Apple's products are dismissed out of hand....snip... Why does TiVo have the best PVR? A TiVo is only a hard disk, some video ports and a few chips. Don't talk to me about usability, interface, or any of that jazz because you have already rejected such features as unworthy of consideration in your purchasing decision. Apparantly you don't read my DTV posts all that closely. I push DirecTV due to customer service and price compared to cable. I hype up the DirecTV/TiVo box because it's *cheap* and has two tuners. The regular TiVo is overpriced, IMHO. $12/month per standalone TIVO (with one tuner) vs $5/month for unlimited DIrecTV/TiVo boxes (with two tuners). Plus, the DTV TiVo is only $99 (or cheaper) which is far cheaper than anyone else. Notice that both of these have cost as a prime basis. As to the TiVo's technical merits, while it does score high on interface, it's also the most stable DVR on the market. Gates' "Media Center" PC crashed on him during CES... Twice... My TiVo's never crashed in 3+ years (except due to a drive starting to fail). I'm pretty much a tightwad with my money, so if things are close, I almost always go with the cheaper solution (provided that it gives me nearly the same performance/usability/etc) You keep talking battery life, but you fail to mention your unit is heavier. Umm, it's 2 ounces heavier (5.6oz vs 7.6oz). You'd be hardpressed to notice the difference unless you're a human scale. Percentage-wise I suppose it's much larger, but again, 2oz? I know I wouldn't be able to tell That extra 2 ounces of weight gives you 6-8 extra hours of playing time (12 hours vs 20 hours, as reported by the marketing people). And lastly, you keep ignoring the huge after-market iPod has. From websites, to gear, to software.... there is value there and you don't bring it up because it isn't suiting your argument at this time. I havn't looked into that at all because frankly, I want my MP3 player to play MP3s and that's about it. The docking bays, FM tuners, etc, just don't interest me. If that was a consideration, I'd probably consider an iPod more heavily. I'd guess that 90% of people only use the iPod and don't install extra software or use accessories (although I could be mistaken). The thing I think you're missing is that nowhere did I say that the iPod was a bad machine (well, the iPod shuffle seems ridiculous to me, but not the iPod/iPod Mini). I just think that there's a much better "bang for hte buck" with Creative, Dell, or Archos. Do some web searches and you'll see I'm not alone. There's a reason I check slickdeals.net, techbargains.com and devsdeals.com every day - it's because I'm cheap! If I can get 95% of the functionality for 50% of the price, I'm going to jump at that. Apple's solution, in my mind, is simply overpriced. Now if the 20G iPod was $150, I probably would've bought it. But it was $300 when I looked, so the Dell won for $150. CW
SDS Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Apparantly you don't read my DTV posts all that closely. I push DirecTV due to customer service and price compared to cable. I hype up the DirecTV/TiVo box because it's *cheap* and has two tuners. The regular TiVo is overpriced, IMHO. $12/month per standalone TIVO (with one tuner) vs $5/month for unlimited DIrecTV/TiVo boxes (with two tuners). Plus, the DTV TiVo is only $99 (or cheaper) which is far cheaper than anyone else. Notice that both of these have cost as a prime basis. As to the TiVo's technical merits, while it does score high on interface, it's also the most stable DVR on the market. Gates' "Media Center" PC crashed on him during CES... Twice... My TiVo's never crashed in 3+ years (except due to a drive starting to fail). I'm pretty much a tightwad with my money, so if things are close, I almost always go with the cheaper solution (provided that it gives me nearly the same performance/usability/etc) Umm, it's 2 ounces heavier (5.6oz vs 7.6oz). You'd be hardpressed to notice the difference unless you're a human scale. Percentage-wise I suppose it's much larger, but again, 2oz? I know I wouldn't be able to tell That extra 2 ounces of weight gives you 6-8 extra hours of playing time (12 hours vs 20 hours, as reported by the marketing people). I havn't looked into that at all because frankly, I want my MP3 player to play MP3s and that's about it. The docking bays, FM tuners, etc, just don't interest me. If that was a consideration, I'd probably consider an iPod more heavily. I'd guess that 90% of people only use the iPod and don't install extra software or use accessories (although I could be mistaken). The thing I think you're missing is that nowhere did I say that the iPod was a bad machine (well, the iPod shuffle seems ridiculous to me, but not the iPod/iPod Mini). I just think that there's a much better "bang for hte buck" with Creative, Dell, or Archos. Do some web searches and you'll see I'm not alone. There's a reason I check slickdeals.net, techbargains.com and devsdeals.com every day - it's because I'm cheap! If I can get 95% of the functionality for 50% of the price, I'm going to jump at that. Apple's solution, in my mind, is simply overpriced. Now if the 20G iPod was $150, I probably would've bought it. But it was $300 when I looked, so the Dell won for $150. CW 202345[/snapback] for the record - let's just correct some facts... The facts surrounding your player don't pertain to today's reality. A Dell DJ20, ugly as sin, costs $250 - NOT $150 (although they are running a 10% sale now). Similar 10% off deals can be found on Amazon for the iPod from time to time. Your 12 hour battery life is now the same as the iPod. When you bought yours it was probably only 8 hours for the iPod. There is no 20 hour player listed at Dell. So what you have is a unit that is 23% heavier, 32% more volumonous, that has the same battery life, fewer accessories, a poorer interface, a smaller user community, and is ugly as sin - for a $50 discount.... Wow, where did I go wrong! As for your "compliments" of the iPod - please. Many of them are backhanded compliments that are then either dismissed out of hand or they are followed up with "it's all marketing". If you are happy with your music solution then fine, but to refuse to give the iTunes/music store/ipod/ipod mini/ipod shuffle/after market accessory solution its well-earned credit for being VERY nice is a disservice to the people you are giving advice to.
stevestojan Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Umm, it's 2 ounces heavier (5.6oz vs 7.6oz). You'd be hardpressed to notice the difference unless you're a human scale. Percentage-wise I suppose it's much larger, but again, 2oz? I know I wouldn't be able to tell 202345[/snapback] Fez, you'd be surprised in how much of a difference 2oz makes. To change to cell phones for a second, 1 ounce can be a huge difference, and you can really tell, if, like me and many otehrs, you keep it in your pocket ALL the time. Im assuming for people who use their ipods all the time, this could also factor in. As far as the iPod, I paid $300 for mine, and if someone offered me $150 cash and a Dell jukebox, I would not take it. Why? because i have tried other, cheaper models. My first was a creative nomad. It was TWICE as big (40 gigs) and $100 less. I had it for three days before taking it back. I would B word about it, and friends would say "I never had that issue with the iPod". So, I bucked up and downgraded (capacity wise) and got the iPod. I loove it. Like Scott said, people don't buy it just because it looks cool. Personally, I think the white is kinda tacky, and the jukebox is a little chunkier and looks nicer (with the polished steel). But for features and ease of use, I wouldnt chance my MP3 player.
Mike Mularkey Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Hey Scott, did you just feel that slap on the side of your head that Fezmid just gave you? 202275[/snapback] Woah, woah, Ed. No, no. Coach Mularkey doesn't like what he just saw. That's sloppy play and the refs are going to call it in a game. Go on, do the laps.
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