pm73 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 i want to get a better idea of what it's gonna take to keep jonas jennings. i'd love it if he stayed a Bill, but not if we have to pay him top 5 tackle money. some of you are great researchers and know where to go to get nfl info quick. could someone compile a list of left OTs around the league? i'm wondering what teams are locked into their current LTs (therfore will not be in the market for one) and what teams need one who also have the cap space to give them the contracts they normally demand? also, a list of the left OT free agents this offseason who will be competing with Jonas for those free agent dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCCEO Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=15880 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 i'd love it if he stayed a Bill, but not if we have to pay him top 5 tackle money. 201797[/snapback] i don't know why there are so many posts questioning what kind of money JJ will see as a free agent -- it's obvious if you just look at the market from the past few years...... 5 million/year 10 million signing bonus those are the MIN numbers.......if the bills aern't willing to pay that, they're going to let him walk because that is market value and he's earned it....... top 5 money? top 10 money? over-used terms......just talk dollars and cents...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeRay Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 those are the MIN numbers.......if the bills aern't willing to pay that, they're going to let him walk because that is market value and he's earned it....... certainly he's "earned" something... but, realistically what we have here with Jonas Jennings is a left tackle that ranks somwhere between 18-26 at his position based on performance. Then, factor in that he has never played a full NFL season due to injuries and in no-way, shape, or form is he deserving of a $5M/yr. salary and a $10M bonus. If I'm going to lay out that kind of $$$ for a LT, he's going to be deserving of top 10 ranking. Now, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jon Ogden, Willy Roaf, Trezell Jenkins, etc. are worth it. Jonas isn't in that fraternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm73 Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 ok, thanks for the link. these are the starters from that list. guys who jonas will be competing with around the league. LEFT Jonas Jennings Bills Orlando Pace Rams Walter Jones Seahawks Kevin Shaffer Falcons Tra Thomas Eagles RIGHT Brandon Gorin Patriots Kareem McKenzie Jets Oliver Ross Steelers Ryan Diem Colts Stockar McDougle Lions Floyd Womack Seahawks Victor Riley Saints the only left tackle that will probably be touchable is schaffer and i doubt we would want him anyway if atlanta is looking to upgrade. i can't imagine the others will be let go. now many of the RTs may be available. i don't know if they could handle LT. maybe someone else knows???? if mike williams is deemed ready to slide over to LT then this could be the list that we are intersted in. i couldn't guess the chances of their availablitlity. so the pickins right now appear to be pretty slim. this doesn't bode well for us keeping jonas. anybody know what teams will also be looking to upgrade their tackle positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pm73 Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 i don't know why there are so many posts questioning what kind of money JJ will see as a free agent -- it's obvious if you just look at the market from the past few years...... 5 million/year 10 million signing bonus those are the MIN numbers.......if the bills aern't willing to pay that, they're going to let him walk because that is market value and he's earned it....... top 5 money? top 10 money? over-used terms......just talk dollars and cents...... 201807[/snapback] i use those terms because those are the terms used at the bargaining table. agents want "top 5 " money. franchise tag demands "top 5 money". transition tag demands "top 10" money. the "dollars and cents" changes every year. 5 years ago, 5 million/yr for a tackle was a lot. well guess what, that's not "top 5" money anymore so no one cares. its a relative term that basically means "enough money to realistically sign a starting free agent". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 certainly he's "earned" something... but, realistically what we have here with Jonas Jennings is a left tackle that ranks somwhere between 18-26 at his position based on performance. Then, factor in that he has never played a full NFL season due to injuries and in no-way, shape, or form is he deserving of a $5M/yr. salary and a $10M bonus. If I'm going to lay out that kind of $$$ for a LT, he's going to be deserving of top 10 ranking. Now, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jon Ogden, Willy Roaf, Trezell Jenkins, etc. are worth it. Jonas isn't in that fraternity. 201868[/snapback] your right he's not in that "fraternity"......if he was, he'd get their market value......i never said he'd get that kind of money....... pace - turned down 13 million bonus/wants 20 million ogden - 15 million bonus jones - turned down 14 million bonus/wants 18 million roaf - 6.5 million bonus, but on a contract signed 3 years ago.....would be looking at 12+ if he signed today jenkins - what the hell? when are people going to realize that a 10 million signing bonus IS what jennings is worth?? that's what the market dictates, and just because you don't want to pay it doesn't make him overpaid....... buffalo fans seem to always want to under-value their players in relation to the market.......it's not rocket science -- luke petitgout, todd wade, john tait, chad clifton, flozell adams, etc..........these guys are all comparable to jonas and, as a result, he will get a comparable contract........he's earned it, based on his play....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtGodel77 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 If it came down to a choice between keeping Jennings and Moulds, I'd go with Jennings. A good offensive line is more important than good receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I think that folks are correct in saying that the market will determine what JJ gets, but for one thing I do not see the market being set yet for LTs and it is unclear where JJ will fall into that market. I think posters often make the mistake of assigning a particular player a contract level based on the quality (or lack thereof) of his play. They assign some absoluted assessment of a player's worth based on whether he is a better or worse player than another player as though salary is some absolute statement of how a player performs. However, it is supply and demand which governs contract amounts, If a worse player enters a market which is constrained he will get (and deserve in our sorta free market system) a bigger contract than a player who enters a market where there are lots of options. JJ needs to decide whether he wants to sign early in the process or late. By signing early or signing one of the first offers that comes to him he risks not getting a bigger offer later as the supply tightens. However, if he waits too long the market of buyers may be the one which tightens and he will lose negotiating ability. I think the issue for JJ right now is that until teams announce who they are going to tag or not, there are many better LTs on the market. Pace and Jones are likely to be tagged again (yet they may not) which will help JJ by reducing supply but if I have cap room I'd rather over pay Tra Thomas than JJ. Maybe Thomas will get tagged or a deal will be made and he will be off the market as well. However, if I am Philly I wait to see how this off-season plays out and try to figure out what is up with Terrell as this influences my cap overall and what I need to spend if I do or don't win it all or go far in the playoffs. To add even more complexity to this situation, I think folks look at what has been offered to LTs before and peg this as what an LT is worth, but they need to recognize that it is exactly these rich contracts which may work against JJ signing a big deal. Teams have had to overpay to get an LT such that talents like Kyle Clifton and Petitgout have gotten the LT deals cited at a $10 million bonus and $5 million for 5 years. However, because even these rich contracts are not in the top 10 cap hits for OL players (8 of whom are LTs) that many teams have already committed and shot their wads in terms of LT or additional OL spending. The franchise # for OL players (most of them LTs) is at about $7 million a year cap hit. The transition number (again mostly LTs) is $6 million. Even stranger these 8 LTs does not even include folks like Pace, Jones or younger players like Thomas. To tighten demand even more, teams like AT who want an LT and both they and JJ have an interest in a deal have potential huge cap constraints from signing a $100 million dollar deal with Vick and giving a huge FA deal to Price. I will not be surprised if these playoffs reveal to AT that the way to win it all for Vick is not to blow the wole wad on the offense (the Indy route) but in fact to spend their small remaining cap room on helping their defense stop folks like Carolina from pushing them into OT by scirung at will on the AT defense. I think the bottomline is that it only takes one team to make a deal with JJ to take him from the Bills. However, I will not be surprised if the KT demand is actually lower than it has been in the past which has drive contracts through the roof because many teams are out of the market having spent big long term bucks on the 8 LTs (out of 31 competitors) in the top 10 OL cap hits. In addition there is some number I do not know enough details about other teams to judge they are out of the market having overspent on players like Clifton and Petitgout. In addition, some teams have younger players under contract has the Bills have had the last two years with Jennings so they are not in the market, plus there are teams which have deals or possibilities with better players like Pace, Jones or Thomas that take them out of the market. JJ any way you cut it will get more money than he has ever had, but I really doubt it is going to be top 10 LT monry (transition tag at about $6 million) and actually it is going to be less than the $5 million lesser players got from more friendly markets. Right now the Bills highest OL cap hits are folks like MW approaching $3 million and Teague around $2 million. i don't think that the market will allow JJ here for $3 million but I will not be surprised if it less than the $5 million which seems to be the going rate for a just outside of the top 10 LT players and if we get him for $4 million TD has done quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 certainly he's "earned" something... but, realistically what we have here with Jonas Jennings is a left tackle that ranks somwhere between 18-26 at his position based on performance. Then, factor in that he has never played a full NFL season due to injuries and in no-way, shape, or form is he deserving of a $5M/yr. salary and a $10M bonus. 201868[/snapback] I think the market will decide that. That is the risk that JJ will take if he rejects the Bills proposal. People sometimes over-value themselves and find that there is no market for them. A good example was Jermiah Trotter. He gave up a big contract with the eagles and came out as a UFA. However there was no market for him and he ended up signing a much lower contract with the Redksins (and if there had been no Snyder, he wouldn't have even got that). Same went with Michael Strahan with the Giants...He gave up a 15M guaranteed money (rejected the Giants inital offer) and then did not find many teams willing to give him the 20M+ signing bonus he wanted and then signed with the Giants for a much much lower contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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