Byrd Skipping mandatory mini-camp

[K-9]

No disrespect here either, but you can't be thinking I extrapolated those 21 targets to encompass his entire "side" of the field, right? That's preposterous, and I wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Obviously that's when he had primary coverage in either a man to man matchup or the target was in his "zone." I know stats don't tell the whole story, but a 50% rate of success is much higher than that of elite corners who only succeed about a third of the time. I would certainly discount the stats since George Wilson also fared well, and the Bills D was constantly run all over, eliminating the need for deeper passing.

 

But I wouldn't want to use stats to try to compare players anyway, since like you, I prefer the eyeball test. But those stats, albeit a small sampling, back up what I'm saying: 1. Byrd is rarely thrown at (which I attribute to QBs recognizing the danger of doing so) and 2. When balls are thrown his way, there is a great chance that Byrd will make a big play.

 

Also, I disagree that they played two-deep the majority of the time. I saw a lot of cover 3 and cover 1. Byrd was the "center fielder" with the SS playing in the box or the flats most of the time.

 

I do agree it isn't really fair to compare Reed to Byrd, but I just wanted to point out that many here (not you, of course) consider Byrd ordinary and easily replaceable, when I think it's clear opposing QBs and coaches disagree. But what the hell do I know? I'm just a fan.

 

They played a cover two the majority of the time they were in zone coverage. Standard practice. You're right about cover-3, cover-1, and even some quarters thrown in as well. But most of the time, it was cover-2 with Wilson screwing the pooch most often.

 

My argument isn't with your extrapolations. It's with pff's analysis. If they are only counting the 21 targets as those times when Byrd was in man coverage, then it only confirms my suspicions about their process. It is done without enough context. And it certainly doesn't take into account the times Byrd was late in getting over or slow in recognition or just plain got outrun by a receiver. He was victimized at times last season as he has been since he came into the league. Doesn't make him a bad player by any stretch, just limited. And certainly not worthy of comparisons to Ed Reed. They are two different kinds of talent entirely.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Good to know some people here have their head on right. Good post.

 

The best part of all this is I was never talking to K-9, he quoted me. I was talking to Mitchmurraydowntown b.c he thinks Byrd is an average player that can be replaced by anyone without notice. K-9 decided to butt in so I played along.

 

Next time you want to use statistics in a post to validate your position and you DON'T want anybody else to "butt in", perhaps you should qualify that up front.

 

Your comparison of Byrd to Reed is just not fair to Byrd. You'd know that if you actually watched more of Ed Reed over the years.

 

It's that obvious.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Ralph W.]

 

 

They played a cover two the majority of the time they were in zone coverage. Standard practice. You're right about cover-3, cover-1, and even some quarters thrown in as well. But most of the time, it was cover-2 with Wilson screwing the pooch most often.

 

My argument isn't with your extrapolations. It's with pff's analysis. If they are only counting the 21 targets as those times when Byrd was in man coverage, then it only confirms my suspicions about their process. It is done without enough context. And it certainly doesn't take into account the times Byrd was late in getting over or slow in recognition or just plain got outrun by a receiver. He was victimized at times last season as he has been since he came into the league. Doesn't make him a bad player by any stretch, just limited. And certainly not worthy of comparisons to Ed Reed. They are two different kinds of talent entirely.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

Next time you want to use statistics in a post to validate your position and you DON'T want anybody else to "butt in", perhaps you should qualify that up front.

 

Your comparison of Byrd to Reed is just not fair to Byrd. You'd know that if you actually watched more of Ed Reed over the years.

 

It's that obvious.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Shouldn't have to, especially when you were the guy who didn't read the other pages. Also was fun to play with you.

[Delete This Account]

Byrd is over hyped and over rated by Bills fans and it happens all the time. 90% of these guys go to different teams and do nothing. Byrd should be traded during Training camp while he has some value.

 

yep. hell, trade 'em all. EJ and the whole bunch. none of 'em are any good. start over. and then, before they show signs of being good, trade them all again so Bills fans can go through a never-ending cycle of rebuilding ...

 

oh, waitaminute, i just summed up the last 13 years, didn't i? whoops.

 

jw

Edited July 1, 2013 by john wawrow

[K-9]

Shouldn't have to, especially when you were the guy who didn't read the other pages. Also was fun to play with you.

 

Oh, I was just lacking the "context." I see. So you really weren't suggesting Byrd is as good as Reed at the same career stage when you trotted out your statistical comparison. Right.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 1, 2013 by K-9

[Hazed and Amuzed]

yep. hell, trade 'em all. EJ and the whole bunch. none of 'em are any good. start over. and then, before they show signs of being good, trade them all again so Bills fans can go through a never-ending cycle of rebuilding ...

 

oh, waitaminute, i just summed up the last 13 years, didn't i? whoops.

 

jw

Yes, thank you for bringing some good sense to this thread. I swear some fans think this is Madden football.

[Ralph W.]

 

 

Oh, I was just lacking the "context." I see. So you really weren't suggesting Byrd is as good as Reed at the same career stage when you trotted out your statistical comparison. Right.

I was using it to show Byrd wasn't as bad as MitchmurrayDT was trying to say he was. Right

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 1, 2013 by Ralph W.

[NoSaint]

 

I was using it to show Byrd wasn't as bad as MitchmurrayDT was trying to say he was. Right

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

he certainly made a mess of the discussion - likely his goal

 

if we could all agree that most of the reasonable people will continue the discussion with the parameters that he falls between very good vs great and cut out the easily replaceable vs first ballot hall of famer stuff it would likely be much more productive.

[K-9]

he certainly made a mess of the discussion - likely his goal

 

if we could all agree that most of the reasonable people will continue the discussion with the parameters that he falls between very good vs great and cut out the easily replaceable vs first ballot hall of famer stuff it would likely be much more productive.

 

All players are easily replaceable. It's literally as easy as just putting someone else into the lineup. For example, the Ravens will easily replace both Reed and Pollard.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Dorkington]

yep. hell, trade 'em all. EJ and the whole bunch. none of 'em are any good. start over. and then, before they show signs of being good, trade them all again so Bills fans can go through a never-ending cycle of rebuilding ...

 

oh, waitaminute, i just summed up the last 13 years, didn't i? whoops.

 

jw

 

I think, though, if the Bills suspect he doesn't want to stick around long term here, that it'd be smart to get something for him, instead of letting him walk in free agency later, no?

 

Personally, I'd rather keep Byrd, but it's obvious the Bills only want to spend a certain amount on him and that Byrd doesn't care for that number... so what else is the team to do?

[uncle flap]

They played a cover two the majority of the time they were in zone coverage. Standard practice. You're right about cover-3, cover-1, and even some quarters thrown in as well. But most of the time, it was cover-2 with Wilson screwing the pooch most often.

 

My argument isn't with your extrapolations. It's with pff's analysis. If they are only counting the 21 targets as those times when Byrd was in man coverage, then it only confirms my suspicions about their process. It is done without enough context. And it certainly doesn't take into account the times Byrd was late in getting over or slow in recognition or just plain got outrun by a receiver. He was victimized at times last season as he has been since he came into the league. Doesn't make him a bad player by any stretch, just limited. And certainly not worthy of comparisons to Ed Reed. They are two different kinds of talent entirely.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

I think we mostly agree, and I'm always willing to concede when I'm wrong. But I think you're off-base with the the cover 2 stuff. Of course they played two deep in cover 2 and cover 4 at times, but I'd say it was sparingly compared to how often they played cover 3 or 1. Again, I may be wrong as I'm just going off my memory which certainly isn't perfect.

 

When you talk about Byrd being slow to recognize plays or late getting over, I didn't really see that either. Again, not saying it didn't happen, I just don't remember that.

 

The times I can think of where it would appear he's "late" getting over would be when he was cheating to the strong side. That is certainly a valid criticism if he does that too often on his own accord, but like I said in an earlier post, it could simply be that he and/or the staff felt they'd rather risk him cheating and forcing the play to the other side. If he was expected to cheat, I wouldn't really hold that against Byrd, but one could certainly make the argument that it's on him if he was indeed "freelancing" or falling for misdirection by the QB.

 

We can't know if either case is true, but I'm not going to put too much stock into plays where he wasn't the primary defender. Sure, we want the safety to be there to bail out the corner when he gets beats by a receiver, but when playing in the middle third, I don't think it's fair to criticize him for failing to make a play on someone else's man on the sideline. But even if you want to criticize him for that, how often did that really happen?

 

I don't mean to paint a picture that Byrd is perfect, but I can't think of a single time where Byrd was "victimized." I can think of a few blown coverages where he didn't make an incredible improvised play, but again, I wouldn't hold that against him.

[NoSaint]

 

 

I think we mostly agree, and I'm always willing to concede when I'm wrong. But I think you're off-base with the the cover 2 stuff. Of course they played two deep in cover 2 and cover 4 at times, but I'd say it was sparingly compared to how often they played cover 3 or 1. Again, I may be wrong as I'm just going off my memory which certainly isn't perfect.

 

When you talk about Byrd being slow to recognize plays or late getting over, I didn't really see that either. Again, not saying it didn't happen, I just don't remember that.

 

The times I can think of where it would appear he's "late" getting over would be when he was cheating to the strong side. That is certainly a valid criticism if he does that too often on his own accord, but like I said in an earlier post, it could simply be that he and/or the staff felt they'd rather risk him cheating and forcing the play to the other side. If he was expected to cheat, I wouldn't really hold that against Byrd, but one could certainly make the argument that it's on him if he was indeed "freelancing" or falling for misdirection by the QB.

 

We can't know if either case is true, but I'm not going to put too much stock into plays where he wasn't the primary defender. Sure, we want the safety to be there to bail out the corner when he gets beats by a receiver, but when playing in the middle third, I don't think it's fair to criticize him for failing to make a play on someone else's man on the sideline. But even if you want to criticize him for that, how often did that really happen?

 

I don't mean to paint a picture that Byrd is perfect, but I can't think of a single time where Byrd was "victimized." I can think of a few blown coverages where he didn't make an incredible improvised play, but again, I wouldn't hold that against him.

 

i think we generally evaluate his play very similarly last year. thats not to say hes the perfect prototype free safety, but i think he played very well in a bad situation.

[K-9]

I think we mostly agree, and I'm always willing to concede when I'm wrong. But I think you're off-base with the the cover 2 stuff. Of course they played two deep in cover 2 and cover 4 at times, but I'd say it was sparingly compared to how often they played cover 3 or 1. Again, I may be wrong as I'm just going off my memory which certainly isn't perfect.

 

When you talk about Byrd being slow to recognize plays or late getting over, I didn't really see that either. Again, not saying it didn't happen, I just don't remember that.

 

The times I can think of where it would appear he's "late" getting over would be when he was cheating to the strong side. That is certainly a valid criticism if he does that too often on his own accord, but like I said in an earlier post, it could simply be that he and/or the staff felt they'd rather risk him cheating and forcing the play to the other side. If he was expected to cheat, I wouldn't really hold that against Byrd, but one could certainly make the argument that it's on him if he was indeed "freelancing" or falling for misdirection by the QB.

 

We can't know if either case is true, but I'm not going to put too much stock into plays where he wasn't the primary defender. Sure, we want the safety to be there to bail out the corner when he gets beats by a receiver, but when playing in the middle third, I don't think it's fair to criticize him for failing to make a play on someone else's man on the sideline. But even if you want to criticize him for that, how often did that really happen?

 

I don't mean to paint a picture that Byrd is perfect, but I can't think of a single time where Byrd was "victimized." I can think of a few blown coverages where he didn't make an incredible improvised play, but again, I wouldn't hold that against him.

 

Boot up some of the games from last year. Against Cleveland, watch his play during Richardson's TD run. The 1st New England game; a true Jekyl and Hyde game for him. The SF game was a complete debacle for him as well as the entire D; he was fooled on a couple of occasions and his lack of speed was evident on a few long passes as well.

 

While I appreciate the give and take, I've grown tired of it in this thread. I'll just say I feel my critique of his play since he's come into the league is fair. Would he be better served by a better supporting cast? Of course. But that doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his own share of bad plays and poor decisions all on his own. And nobody has any business comparing him to Ed Reed at ANY stage of their careers.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Ralph W.]

 

 

Boot up some of the games from last year. Against Cleveland, watch his play during Richardson's TD run. The 1st New England game; a true Jekyl and Hyde game for him. The SF game was a complete debacle for him as well as the entire D; he was fooled on a couple of occasions and his lack of speed was evident on a few long passes as well.

 

While I appreciate the give and take, I've grown tired of it in this thread. I'll just say I feel my critique of his play since he's come into the league is fair. Would he be better served by a better supporting cast? Of course. But that doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his own share of bad plays and poor decisions all on his own. And nobody has any business comparing him to Ed Reed at ANY stage of their careers.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

OMG how come you aren't working for the NFL.

[K-9]

OMG how come you aren't working for the NFL.

 

Oh, but I have.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[3rdand12]

Ed reed. Why are you talking this into the ground ?

just stop people.

Ridiculous to defend or aggress this point.

Byrd got beat last year, He looked lost too. But that was because of failures all across the field. I have said before. Last year was amazingly poor football play for whatever reason. but they sucked.

Thats the past.

Would JB be an asset to the current team ? To the Bills down the road ?

Thats the question.

Duke Williams is an unknown quantity at this point.

Bills will make a deal. A long term deal because thats all Byrd wants at this point seemingly. And rightly so.

Played well above his salary (thats how it goes though, work hard and hope for promotion from reasonable boss ) .

He plays good enough or better to keep around and we they should expect more from him after payday and down the road.

Again people its not our money and the Bills have plenty of it !!!!

Name one FA that is worth a hoot at this point. Whats left this year are stopgaps and old guys .

Develop from the inside is a great model for success

I bet you, that Pettine would love to have the kid.

I loathe when folks minimilize one of our better players on the boards to make a point.

Ed Reed is not a BILL.

Go Bills

Edited July 2, 2013 by 3rdand12

[uncle flap]

Boot up some of the games from last year. Against Cleveland, watch his play during Richardson's TD run. The 1st New England game; a true Jekyl and Hyde game for him. The SF game was a complete debacle for him as well as the entire D; he was fooled on a couple of occasions and his lack of speed was evident on a few long passes as well.

 

While I appreciate the give and take, I've grown tired of it in this thread. I'll just say I feel my critique of his play since he's come into the league is fair. Would he be better served by a better supporting cast? Of course. But that doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his own share of bad plays and poor decisions all on his own. And nobody has any business comparing him to Ed Reed at ANY stage of their careers.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I apologize if I came off brashly, I just didn't recall those instances where Byrd played poorly. I'm off this week so I will take a look.

 

I'm familiar with your posts, so I realize you pay attention and "get it." I just saw different things - or at least remembered them differently.

 

And I'm sorry I wasn't more clear: I didn't mean to imply your criticism was unfair, just that safeties often get a bad rap when they don't make up for someone else's mistake, and when we don't exactly know the assignments.

 

I also enjoyed the discussion and bid you a GO BILLS as well, good sir!

[K-9]

I apologize if I came off brashly, I just didn't recall those instances where Byrd played poorly. I'm off this week so I will take a look.

 

I'm familiar with your posts, so I realize you pay attention and "get it." I just saw different things - or at least remembered them differently.

 

And I'm sorry I wasn't more clear: I didn't mean to imply your criticism was unfair, just that safeties often get a bad rap when they don't make up for someone else's mistake, and when we don't exactly know the assignments.

 

I also enjoyed the discussion and bid you a GO BILLS as well, good sir!

 

I didn't take one thing you said as unfair or offensive at all. You provided fair analysis as well. And you make an excellent point about how, since it's always that safety, as the last line of defense we see on our screens, that we tend to judge in a vacuum. Like I said, I appreciate the give and take in the thread. It's all good, flap.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ganesh]

Careful bandit. You're stepping on someone's fantasy here. Byrd is as fast, quick, and otherwise athletically gifted as Ed Reed ever was.

 

Seriously though, it's no insult to Byrd to say he isn't as good as Reed. Byrd is a terrific player. He makes a big play now and then. But football is mostly about the hundreds of little plays in between. Reed's athleticism has allowed him to be in better position to make those little plays far more often.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Don't underestimate the front-seven that Reed played behind. That fearsome front-7 made up of Lewis, Suggs and Ngata can allow Reed to freelance a lot more and make more plays. Troy Polamalu has similarly benefited with the front-7 in Pittsburgh.

[K-9]

Don't underestimate the front-seven that Reed played behind. That fearsome front-7 made up of Lewis, Suggs and Ngata can allow Reed to freelance a lot more and make more plays. Troy Polamalu has similarly benefited with the front-7 in Pittsburgh.

 

I don't discount the talent around him at all. But are you suggesting that if Byrd had an equally talented surrounding cast, that he would be just as fast and athletic as Reed? It's that sheer athleticism that separates the two more than anything else.

 

Like I said, it works both ways. Someone with Reed's unique ability allows a lot more scheme flexibility and his front seven benefits from that as well. Simply put, I have never seen anyone own the middle of the secondary like Ed Reed.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/60838/franchise-tag-deadline-is-in-two-weeks

 

In exactly two weeks we will know the immediate futures of two Pro Bowl players in the AFC East. July 15 is the deadline for teams that used the one-year franchise tag to work out long-term extensions.

 

The Buffalo Bills and Miami Dolphins used the tag in March to retain safety Jairus Byrd and defensive tackle Randy Starks, respectively. However, neither player has been able to work out a long-term contract over the past four months.

 

Byrd's situation with Buffalo is the more unstable of the two. He finished his rookie contract last season and is unhappy that the Bills haven't provided long-term security. Byrd skipped all organized team activities and mandatory minicamp. The Bills could not fine Byrd because he hasn’t signed his franchise tender.

 

Byrd, 26, is a playmaker entering his prime and Buffalo has plenty of cap room. It would make sense for both sides to reach a resolution. However, it’s been eerily quiet from both sides lately and this could go down to the wire.