Byrd Skipping mandatory mini-camp

[Ralph W.]

 

 

The idiocy of this post aside, Byrd just doesn't have the superior athletic physical skills of an Ed Reed.

 

Like I said, compare stats all you want. That's for folks that lack insight. It's how players effect the game play in and play out, not just when they are getting turnovers. Turnovers are the exception, not the rule. Being in the right spots to impact plays on a play to play basis is the name of the game. Byrd just isn't fast or quick enough to do that on the same HOF level as an Ed Reed.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Your problem is you are comparing the Ed Reed of now. It's a mistake many make.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Ralph W.

[K-9]

Your problem is you are comparing the Ed Reed of now. It's a mistake many make.

 

Wrong. I wasn't the one to suggest that because Byrd has favorable comparative stats to Reed at the same stages of their careers, that Byrd is somehow in the same class as Reed as a player. That is just plain ignorance of the game.

 

And even at his advanced age, I still believe Ed Reed impacts the game more on a play by play basis.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Well disagreements about his abilities aside, we can all agree that Byrd has played his entire career behind an ineffective front 7 and a weak pass rush.

 

It would be nice to see what kind of production he would be capable of in better circumstances.

[mrags]

 

How do you get "good news" from that? I am seriously asking. Is there some code I am unaware of? Or is it just because he hasn't tweeted in months?

he has maintained complete silence to this point. (Probably advised by his agent) and now all the sudden he tweets? I'm not saying a deal is done at all. But it's more hopeful than the alternative.

[Ralph W.]

 

 

Wrong. I wasn't the one to suggest that because Byrd has favorable comparative stats to Reed at the same stages of their careers, that Byrd is somehow in the same class as Reed as a player. That is just plain ignorance of the game.

 

And even at his advanced age, I still believe Ed Reed impacts the game more on a play by play basis.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Byrd has done just as good with less talent around him. You are just being very strongly opinionated borderline insulting right now.

[K-9]

Byrd has done just as good with less talent around him. You are just being very strongly opinionated borderline insulting right now.

 

Strongly opinionated? Borderline insulting? Because I think Byrd isn't as athletic as Ed Reed? Because I don't think he's in the same class as a 1st ballot HOFer and one of the best to ever play the position? What can I say? If you are under that delusion, then by all means, enjoy the fantasy. I'd rather save my breath for people who have a better understanding of the game.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Well disagreements about his abilities aside, we can all agree that Byrd has played his entire career behind an ineffective front 7 and a weak pass rush.

 

It would be nice to see what kind of production he would be capable of in better circumstances.

 

I think we can all agree Byrd is a great talent. We can all agree that he's played with less than stellar talent around him. We can all agree that he needs to be re-signed because he makes our team better.

 

But I'm not gonna elevate him to Ed Reed class because someone points out he had nearly as many INTs or forced and recovered more fumbles than Ed Reed after his first five years. Byrd simply doesn't possess the speed and quickness to impact the game on a play by play basis like Reed. That's not an insult to Byrd. Some people just need to take it that way.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Ralph W.]

 

 

Strongly opinionated? Borderline insulting? Because I think Byrd isn't as athletic as Ed Reed? Because I don't think he's in the same class as a 1st ballot HOFer and one of the best to ever play the position? What can I say? If you are under that delusion, then by all means, enjoy the fantasy. I'd rather save my breath for people who have a better understanding of the game.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

I think we can all agree Byrd is a great talent. We can all agree that he's played with less than stellar talent around him. We can all agree that he needs to be re-signed because he makes our team better.

 

But I'm not gonna elevate him to Ed Reed class because someone points out he had nearly as many INTs or forced and recovered more fumbles than Ed Reed after his first five years. Byrd simply doesn't possess the speed and quickness to impact the game on a play by play basis like Reed. That's not an insult to Byrd. Some people just need to take it that way.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

It's you living in the fantasy. You have yet to provide anything of substance other then what you "think"

 

But this is how forums are people come here and take opinion and use it as fact all while screaming others are wrong.

 

No one bothers to look at the help Ed had on the team the players he had around him, the support system on the defense. Byrd on the other hand was playing with no one around him. He was asked to work with different DC every year. Yet he did everything he was asked even on a defense that was almost historically horrible around him. Not to mention his consistency of not missing a single game which is huge in the NFL.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Ralph W.

[thebandit27]

Strongly opinionated? Borderline insulting? Because I think Byrd isn't as athletic as Ed Reed? Because I don't think he's in the same class as a 1st ballot HOFer and one of the best to ever play the position? What can I say? If you are under that delusion, then by all means, enjoy the fantasy. I'd rather save my breath for people who have a better understanding of the game.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

I think we can all agree Byrd is a great talent. We can all agree that he's played with less than stellar talent around him. We can all agree that he needs to be re-signed because he makes our team better.

 

But I'm not gonna elevate him to Ed Reed class because someone points out he had nearly as many INTs or forced and recovered more fumbles than Ed Reed after his first five years. Byrd simply doesn't possess the speed and quickness to impact the game on a play by play basis like Reed. That's not an insult to Byrd. Some people just need to take it that way.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

It's not even close. Reed is arguably one of the top 3 free safeties ever to play the game. When he's on the field, he impacts both the running and passing game to a degree not seen from any other safety in this generation (outside of Troy Polamalu, but he plays a much different position in LeBeau's D).

 

And that INT and FF stats are clearly cherry-picked, as they're the only ones that are close between them in their first 4 years. Reed's solo tackles, sacks, passes defended, and blocked kicks are far greater in his first 4 years than Byrd, despite playing 4 fewer games over that time period. However, to anyone that watches the two guys play, the stats shouldn't even enter into the discussion; Reed is a superior player in every way, and that's not a knock on Byrd.

[Kellyto83TD]

Byrd is over hyped and over rated by Bills fans and it happens all the time. 90% of these guys go to different teams and do nothing. Byrd should be traded during Training camp while he has some value.

[Nanker]

And anyone who thinks the Byrd team isn't focused on and using those statistics as part of their negotiating plan is delusional. I'm not saying they tell a whole heck of a lot - but they are a fact and they are what they are. This, plus the fact that he made a big splash in his rookie year, was runner up to DROTY, elected to the ProBowl, selected to the Pro Bowl are all negotiating chips for his side.

 

Parker wants more money for those under-paid past services (his view... not necessarily mine) makes this impasse what it is. It's not a good situation for either party. They've both got the other party y the short and curlies.

 

Byrd is over hyped and over rated by Bills fans and it happens all the time. 90% of these guys go to different teams and do nothing. Byrd should be traded during Training camp while he has some value.

 

Traded to who exactly and for what?

[K-9]

It's not even close. Reed is arguably one of the top 3 free safeties ever to play the game. When he's on the field, he impacts both the running and passing game to a degree not seen from any other safety in this generation (outside of Troy Polamalu, but he plays a much different position in LeBeau's D).

 

And that INT and FF stats are clearly cherry-picked, as they're the only ones that are close between them in their first 4 years. Reed's solo tackles, sacks, passes defended, and blocked kicks are far greater in his first 4 years than Byrd, despite playing 4 fewer games over that time period. However, to anyone that watches the two guys play, the stats shouldn't even enter into the discussion; Reed is a superior player in every way, and that's not a knock on Byrd.

 

Careful bandit. You're stepping on someone's fantasy here. Byrd is as fast, quick, and otherwise athletically gifted as Ed Reed ever was.

 

Seriously though, it's no insult to Byrd to say he isn't as good as Reed. Byrd is a terrific player. He makes a big play now and then. But football is mostly about the hundreds of little plays in between. Reed's athleticism has allowed him to be in better position to make those little plays far more often.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Gugny]

 

Traded to who exactly and for what?

Details, schmetails !!!!

[thebandit27]

Careful bandit. You're stepping on someone's fantasy here. Byrd is as fast, quick, and otherwise athletically gifted as Ed Reed ever was.

 

Seriously though, it's no insult to Byrd to say he isn't as good as Reed. Byrd is a terrific player. He makes a big play now and then. But football is mostly about the hundreds of little plays in between. Reed's athleticism has allowed him to be in better position to make those little plays far more often.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

While I agree that the little plays add up, it's also about the big plays that Reed has made consistently that don't show up on the stat sheet. I remember the Week 1 Sunday Night game vs. Cincinnati in 2007...if you look solely at the stat sheet, Ed Reed had 1 solo tackle, 1 pass defended, and 1 fumble recovery (along with a 63-yard PR TD).

 

However, I remember that being the game that cemented Ed Reed as one of the best defenders in football in my mind. He was everywhere. He twice nearly knocked TJ Houshmandzedah out cold. He shipped backup TE Daniel Coats from the game with a separated shoulder; not to mention took away the entire middle of the field from the vaunted Bengal passing attack, forcing them to work the corners (which Palmer eventually did--winning the game with a late TD pass to TJ on a 1-route).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've seen Byrd have great games, but I've never seen him do what Reed did/still does on a regular basis. The guy is an all-time great. Byrd is not.

[K-9]

While I agree that the little plays add up, it's also about the big plays that Reed has made consistently that don't show up on the stat sheet. I remember the Week 1 Sunday Night game vs. Cincinnati in 2007...if you look solely at the stat sheet, Ed Reed had 1 solo tackle, 1 pass defended, and 1 fumble recovery (along with a 63-yard PR TD).

 

However, I remember that being the game that cemented Ed Reed as one of the best defenders in football in my mind. He was everywhere. He twice nearly knocked TJ Houshmandzedah out cold. He shipped backup TE Daniel Coats from the game with a separated shoulder; not to mention took away the entire middle of the field from the vaunted Bengal passing attack, forcing them to work the corners (which Palmer eventually did--winning the game with a late TD pass to TJ on a 1-route).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've seen Byrd have great games, but I've never seen him do what Reed did/still does on a regular basis. The guy is an all-time great. Byrd is not.

 

Well said in every regard. I would hope that others can watch the games and really appreciate what great players do on a play by play basis. Your mention of "forcing" Palmer to work the corners is on the mark especially. All I hear is how Reed's surrounding cast makes it possible for him to succeed. And that's true to a point. But the reverse is also true: when you have a player as gifted as Reed you can do certain things with your other personnel as well. Middle of the field is and always will be the PRIME real estate in the game. A player like Reed simply dominates that space and makes it easier for you to defend the tighter spots.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 1, 2013 by K-9

[uncle flap]

Well said in every regard. I would hope that others can watch the games and really appreciate what great players do on a play by play basis. Your mention of "forcing" Palmer to work the corners is on the mark especially. All I hear is how Reed's surrounding cast makes it possible for him to succeed. And that's true to a point. But the reverse is also true: when you have a player as gifted as Reed you can do certain things with your other personnel as well. Middle of the field is and always will be the PRIME real estate in the game. A player like Reed simply dominates that space and makes it easier for you to defend the tighter spots.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

By no means am I trying to say Byrd is as good or better than Reed, but it's worth noting Byrd does have that same effect on QBs.

 

Byrd was only only targeted 21 times last year. 11 of those times, the pass was either deflected or intercepted. QBs know not to throw it where he can make a play.

 

People point to TDs given up by Gilmore as an indictment of Byrd being unable to close, but what I see is a guy taking away the other 2/3 of the field- where he was arguably needed more, since Gilmore is/was the best corner. If you're going to cheat at all, it should be to help the guys who need it (more so than Gilmore, at least).

 

Again, Byrd is not Reed. But they play a similar role in terms of creating a "danger zone" for the opposition.

 

Obviously you can count me in the camp that is salivating at the prospect of Byrd under a competent coordinator. Who knows, maybe down the line there'll be some actual merit to these Reed comparisons.

[K-9]

By no means am I trying to say Byrd is as good or better than Reed, but it's worth noting Byrd does have that same effect on QBs.

 

Byrd was only only targeted 21 times last year. 11 of those times, the pass was either deflected or intercepted. QBs know not to throw it where he can make a play.

 

People point to TDs given up by Gilmore as an indictment of Byrd being unable to close, but what I see is a guy taking away the other 2/3 of the field- where he was arguably needed more, since Gilmore is/was the best corner. If you're going to cheat at all, it should be to help the guys who need it (more so than Gilmore, at least).

 

Again, Byrd is not Reed. But they play a similar role in terms of creating a "danger zone" for the opposition.

 

Obviously you can count me in the camp that is salivating at the prospect of Byrd under a competent coordinator. Who knows, maybe down the line there'll be some actual merit to these Reed comparisons.

 

With all due respect, I put NO stock in pff's analysis. Bills were in zone coverage the majority of the time, most often playing two deep when they were. Nobody is going to convince me that opponents attacked Byrd's half only 21 times in over 500 attempts against.

 

I don't see Byrd having the speed and agility to cover the field like Ed Reed now or in the future. I think it's a mistake to even mention them in the same breath not to mention grossly unfair to Byrd. Which is why I find the stat comparisons ludicrous.

 

That said, I would love to see him in Pettine's system.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 1, 2013 by K-9

[uncle flap]

With all due respect, I put NO stock in pff's analysis. Bills were in zone coverage the majority of the time, most often playing two deep when they were. Nobody is going to convince me that opponents attacked Byrd's half only 21 times in over 500 attempts against.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

No disrespect here either, but you can't be thinking I extrapolated those 21 targets to encompass his entire "side" of the field, right? That's preposterous, and I wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Obviously that's when he had primary coverage in either a man to man matchup or the target was in his "zone." I know stats don't tell the whole story, but a 50% rate of success is much higher than that of elite corners who only succeed about a third of the time. I would certainly discount the stats since George Wilson also fared well, and the Bills D was constantly run all over, eliminating the need for deeper passing.

 

But I wouldn't want to use stats to try to compare players anyway, since like you, I prefer the eyeball test. But those stats, albeit a small sampling, back up what I'm saying: 1. Byrd is rarely thrown at (which I attribute to QBs recognizing the danger of doing so) and 2. When balls are thrown his way, there is a great chance that Byrd will make a big play.

 

Also, I disagree that they played two-deep the majority of the time. I saw a lot of cover 3 and cover 1. Byrd was the "center fielder" with the SS playing in the box or the flats most of the time.

 

I do agree it isn't really fair to compare Reed to Byrd, but I just wanted to point out that many here (not you, of course) consider Byrd ordinary and easily replaceable, when I think it's clear opposing QBs and coaches disagree. But what the hell do I know? I'm just a fan.

Edited July 1, 2013 by uncle flap

[Ralph W.]

 

 

No disrespect here either, but you can't be thinking I extrapolated those 21 targets to encompass his entire "side" of the field, right? That's preposterous, and I wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Obviously that's when he had primary coverage in either a man to man matchup or the target was in his "zone." I know stats don't tell the whole story, but a 50% rate of success is much higher than that of elite corners who only succeed about a third of the time. I would certainly discount the stats since George Wilson also fared well, and the Bills D was constantly run all over, eliminating the need for deeper passing.

 

But I wouldn't want to use stats to try to compare players anyway, since like you, I prefer the eyeball test. But those stats, albeit a small sampling, back up what I'm saying: 1. Byrd is rarely thrown at (which I attribute to QBs recognizing the danger of doing so) and 2. When balls are thrown his way, there is a great chance that Byrd will make a big play.

 

Also, I disagree that they played two-deep the majority of the time. I saw a lot of cover 3 and cover 1. Byrd was the "center fielder" with the SS playing in the box or the flats most of the time.

 

I do agree it isn't really fair to compare Reed to Byrd, but I just wanted to point out that many here (not you, of course) consider Byrd ordinary and easily replaceable, when I think it's clear opposing QBs and coaches disagree. But what the hell do I know? I'm just a fan.

 

Good to know some people here have their head on right. Good post.

 

The best part of all this is I was never talking to K-9, he quoted me. I was talking to Mitchmurraydowntown b.c he thinks Byrd is an average player that can be replaced by anyone without notice. K-9 decided to butt in so I played along.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Ralph W.

[NoSaint]

 

Also, I disagree that they played two-deep the majority of the time. I saw a lot of cover 3 and cover 1. Byrd was the "center fielder" with the SS playing in the box or the flats most of the time.

 

 

especially the cover 3 has been confirmed as a common coverage in our d - there were many times the corners played the deep outside zone that drove fans crazy.

Edited July 1, 2013 by NoSaint

[thebandit27]

especially the cover 3 has been confirmed as a common coverage in our d - there were many times the corners played the deep outside zone that drove fans crazy.

 

I would be one of those fans driven crazy by the cover 3...we draft big, physical corners that cut their teeth playing man-man, and then we do that garbage...ugh