mitchmurraydowntown Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 If he's so valuable to other teams, let's grab their best LB & call it a day. We really need a LB & Byrd's agent is out for huge money he is never going to get, so some type of value is better than watching Byrd sit.
K-9 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Oh the 6 turnovers the offense had that game which account for 42 points? Yet we paid that QB... But a guy who is one of the very few who does his job everyday yea let's get rid of him. Paid the QB commensurate with what he was: a middle of the road performer and his contract reflected that. Byrd is being offered a salary commensurate with his status as one of the best safeties in the game AS AN OPENING OFFER; 4th highest in the league. The comparison to Fitz is nonsensical. Oh, and once again, FAgents aren't "gotten rid of." They choose to sign elsewhere. GO BILLS!!! Hence why our pass defense was ranked 10th You guys are acting like he is going to be getting paid Mario money or QB money. He is going to get top Safety money, that is not breaking the bank for a top player. You honestly think our pass defense was ranked 10th because our secondary was that good defending the pass? You need to look inside the numbers. Here's a clue: our run defense sucked. GO BILLS!!!
NoSaint Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Paid the QB commensurate with what he was: a middle of the road performer and his contract reflected that. Byrd is being offered a salary commensurate with his status as one of the best safeties in the game AS AN OPENING OFFER; 4th highest in the league. The comparison to Fitz is nonsensical. Oh, and once again, FAgents aren't "gotten rid of." They choose to sign elsewhere. GO BILLS!!! You honestly think our pass defense was ranked 10th because our secondary was that good defending the pass? You need to look inside the numbers. Here's a clue: our run defense sucked. GO BILLS!!! i think we are well on the same page here, just that my acceptable dollar range might extend slightly higher.... and even there, i dont WANT to go that high, but i wouldnt be upset if hes in the 8s. our evaluations of the player, and defense in general i think shares quite a bit of overlap though. additionally, spot on with fitz again. most see big numbers and just dont get that they arent that big If he's so valuable to other teams, let's grab their best LB & call it a day. We really need a LB & Byrd's agent is out for huge money he is never going to get, so some type of value is better than watching Byrd sit. almost a 0% chance of this ending player for player. Edited June 20, 2013 by NoSaint
thebandit27 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 You honestly think our pass defense was ranked 10th because our secondary was that good defending the pass? You need to look inside the numbers. Here's a clue: our run defense sucked. GO BILLS!!! On this one comment, there is some merit to the pass defense's ranking. Sure, the yards surrendered were low due to the brutality of the run defense, however it's also worth noting that the defense was 10th in YPA allowed, which is generally considered--as you know--a solid marker for performance vs. the pass. That said, I think that multiple factors (Mario's pass rush, Gilmore's relative shutdown coverage, etc.) contributed to this, and Byrd was merely a part of it. i think we are well on the same page here, just that my acceptable dollar range might extend slightly higher.... and even there, i dont WANT to go that high, but i wouldnt be upset if hes in the 8s. our evaluations of the player, and defense in general i think shares quite a bit of overlap though. additionally, spot on with fitz again. most see big numbers and just dont get that they arent that big Consider me in agreement with all of this.
K-9 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 On this one comment, there is some merit to the pass defense's ranking. Sure, the yards surrendered were low due to the brutality of the run defense, however it's also worth noting that the defense was 10th in YPA allowed, which is generally considered--as you know--a solid marker for performance vs. the pass. That said, I think that multiple factors (Mario's pass rush, Gilmore's relative shutdown coverage, etc.) contributed to this, and Byrd was merely a part of it. Consider me in agreement with all of this. I will only go so far as to say our pass defense was "improved" from the previous year. Agree entirely that YPA is most telling. As is QB rating allowed. They are intertwined. Based on what I saw, we were just not a dominant pass defense most of the time. I just didn't see that, especially against the better teams. What was our 3rd down defense like, for instance. No need for me to rehash the painfully obvious. GO BILLS!!!
thebandit27 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 I will only go so far as to say our pass defense was "improved" from the previous year. Agree entirely that YPA is most telling. As is QB rating allowed. They are intertwined. Based on what I saw, we were just not a dominant pass defense most of the time. I just didn't see that, especially against the better teams. What was our 3rd down defense like, for instance. No need for me to rehash the painfully obvious. GO BILLS!!! Dominant? Absolutely not. Effective a fair share of the time is more like it I say.
K-9 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Dominant? Absolutely not. Effective a fair share of the time is more like it I say. I guess we have different ideas of what "fair share of the time" really means. Our pass defense improved most when Gilmore started to get more comfortable after the first third of the season or so. I can't give much credit for that to Byrd, Wilson, or anyone else in that secondary. And again, that third down defense, another good indicator, just wasn't there. They laid off Gilmore and victimized others in the secondary. Including, I dare say, Byrd. GO BILLS!!!
NoSaint Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) I guess we have different ideas of what "fair share of the time" really means. Our pass defense improved most when Gilmore started to get more comfortable after the first third of the season or so. I can't give much credit for that to Byrd, Wilson, or anyone else in that secondary. And again, that third down defense, another good indicator, just wasn't there. They laid off Gilmore and victimized others in the secondary. Including, I dare say, Byrd. GO BILLS!!! i dont think byrd got it that badly... honestly, i think a couple key plays ::cough::george wilson::cough:: and it wouldve been a pretty acceptable season for the secondary. not great, but as bandit said, serviceable (outside of the obvious meltdowns during a few halves). the biggest, out of the ordinary, deficiency i noticed in the safety play was a lack of trust in the linebackers. there were often times it seemed like the safeties were drawn up into the middle of the field to cover an assignment that the linebackers shouldve had. it seemed a lot of the explosive plays given up started with 2 linebackers going to the same assignment and a safety coming up into the mess to try and compensate and then BAM, the play was past everyone. see highlight reels from Johnson, Chris and Wilson, Russel. even that i think victimized wilson worse than byrd. Edited June 20, 2013 by NoSaint
K-9 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 i dont think byrd got it that badly... honestly, i think a couple key plays ::cough::george wilson::cough:: and it wouldve been a pretty acceptable season for the secondary. not great, but as bandit said, serviceable (outside of the obvious meltdowns during a few halves). the biggest, out of the ordinary, deficiency i noticed in the safety play was a lack of trust in the linebackers. there were often times it seemed like the safeties were drawn up into the middle of the field to cover an assignment that the linebackers shouldve had. it seemed a lot of the explosive plays given up started with 2 linebackers going to the same assignment and a safety coming up into the mess to try and compensate and then BAM, the play was past everyone. see highlight reels from Johnson, Chris and Wilson, Russel. Can't disagree with anything here. Especially the impact of the poor LB play on the rest of the defense. By FAR the worst position group on the team. And it was obvious Wanny had his safeties cheating up to compensate and that was often the reason our safeties looked late getting back. Even, cough, cough, Wilson. That said, there were also plenty of times when the actual phsyical limitations of our safeties (read speed) simply prevented them from being able to be in a position to make the play. And while Wilson was the usual suspect, I don't excuse Byrd from his share as well. Byrd's big play ability is unquestioned. But that shouldn't make anyone oblivious to his limitations as well. A GREAT example is the NE game mentioned upthread. Amazing, game impacting plays in the first half, and some poor play in the second. A microcosm of his career IMHO. GO BILLS!!!
Ralph W. Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Maybe we should ask this how much do you people actually think he is asking for? I'm thinking the Bills offered 7 a year which is low for someone like him. And he wants 9. Edited June 20, 2013 by EJ3
NoSaint Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Maybe we should ask this how much do you people actually think he is asking for? truly, no one knows. i think the assumption of 10m by peter is wildly high, but he could be spot on. anything starting with a number larger than 8 would surprise me. asking for 9 expecting to settle for 8, i could see. but i dont think he can draw the line as 9+ or 10+ as some think he is.
NoSaint Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Can't disagree with anything here. Especially the impact of the poor LB play on the rest of the defense. By FAR the worst position group on the team. And it was obvious Wanny had his safeties cheating up to compensate and that was often the reason our safeties looked late getting back. Even, cough, cough, Wilson. That said, there were also plenty of times when the actual phsyical limitations of our safeties (read speed) simply prevented them from being able to be in a position to make the play. And while Wilson was the usual suspect, I don't excuse Byrd from his share as well. Byrd's big play ability is unquestioned. But that shouldn't make anyone oblivious to his limitations as well. A GREAT example is the NE game mentioned upthread. Amazing, game impacting plays in the first half, and some poor play in the second. A microcosm of his career IMHO. GO BILLS!!! definitely not excusing him from the faults. just think for the level of dysfunction we saw at times, it wouldve been hard for even a true once in a generation player to make the type of impact that you are discussing. truth is though, he doesnt have elite speed. i know the limitations of a 40, but it agrees with you - he was much closer to 4.7 than 4.5 (though dealing with an injury). he may come up a step late ocassionally, but he seems like a hard worker, a true professional, with few real question marks. he doesnt strike me as the type to get lazy, or to be a poor influence - isnt going to shoot anyone in the face- and i allow a little premium into the equation for a guy that does have high upside and low risk. if they "overpay" by a small bit, i like it with high character guys. like ive said though, that doesnt mean "blank check" style negotiations.
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 definitely not excusing him from the faults. just think for the level of dysfunction we saw at times, it wouldve been hard for even a true once in a generation player to make the type of impact that you are discussing. truth is though, he doesnt have elite speed. i know the limitations of a 40, but it agrees with you - he was much closer to 4.7 than 4.5 (though dealing with an injury). he may come up a step late ocassionally, but he seems like a hard worker, a true professional, with few real question marks. he doesnt strike me as the type to get lazy, or to be a poor influence - isnt going to shoot anyone in the face- and i allow a little premium into the equation for a guy that does have high upside and low risk. if they "overpay" by a small bit, i like it with high character guys. like ive said though, that doesnt mean "blank check" style negotiations. Also, look at it this way. In the past, the team has rewarded "hard-working" guys who are not as good like Chris Kelsay and even Terrence McGee. At some point, you need to balance this out by also rewarding players based on actual on-field merits. And as I've said, you're not likely to risk overpaying as the prices inflate over the next couple of years. In the meantime, the Bills would have bought out the prime years of a very good player at market rate, and would not have to worry about the position. If for some reason the Plan B guys excel, you have a trade chip on your hands or a way for a creative D-coordinator to get more good players on the field.
NoSaint Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Also, look at it this way. In the past, the team has rewarded "hard-working" guys who are not as good like Chris Kelsay and even Terrence McGee. At some point, you need to balance this out by also rewarding players based on actual on-field merits. And as I've said, you're not likely to risk overpaying as the prices inflate over the next couple of years. In the meantime, the Bills would have bought out the prime years of a very good player at market rate, and would not have to worry about the position. If for some reason the Plan B guys excel, you have a trade chip on your hands or a way for a creative D-coordinator to get more good players on the field. i think he bridges the gap between "hard worker" and being at the top of his field league wide. it seems like a good place to make an investment.
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 i think he bridges the gap between "hard worker" and being at the top of his field league wide. it seems like a good place to make an investment. Agreed. It's where the comparisons to Peters should end abruptly. The guy is not going to come back to the team making demands in a year or two. He is going to work once he gets a deal.
NoSaint Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Agreed. It's where the comparisons to Peters should end abruptly. The guy is not going to come back to the team making demands in a year or two. He is going to work once he gets a deal. exactly. if we give him 8m, and he plays more like 7m... not the end of the world. if we give him 10m, and he plays like 4m it hurts pretty badly. i think his floor is pretty close to his asking price, even if his asking price might be at, or a smidge above the ceiling for his play.... if that makes a lick of sense.
peterlaw Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Every $ counts in terms of the Byrd contract. Assuming CJ has a decent year his salary goes up to $10m? Wood up to $6m? That's a lot of extra cap space required which means tight cap management now. I still think we need (and we will get) a veteran ILB off the waiver wire which will cost. Has Brandon got his Analytics Team in place yet?
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Every $ counts in terms of the Byrd contract. Assuming CJ has a decent year his salary goes up to $10m? Wood up to $6m? That's a lot of extra cap space required which means tight cap management now. I still think we need (and we will get) a veteran ILB off the waiver wire which will cost. Has Brandon got his Analytics Team in place yet? I would never pay CJ $10MM a year.
mitchmurraydowntown Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) I would never pay CJ $10MM a year. What if he has the most yards from scrimmage in the NFL this season ?? Edited June 20, 2013 by mitchmurraydowntown
K-9 Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 definitely not excusing him from the faults. just think for the level of dysfunction we saw at times, it wouldve been hard for even a true once in a generation player to make the type of impact that you are discussing. truth is though, he doesnt have elite speed. i know the limitations of a 40, but it agrees with you - he was much closer to 4.7 than 4.5 (though dealing with an injury). he may come up a step late ocassionally, but he seems like a hard worker, a true professional, with few real question marks. he doesnt strike me as the type to get lazy, or to be a poor influence - isnt going to shoot anyone in the face- and i allow a little premium into the equation for a guy that does have high upside and low risk. if they "overpay" by a small bit, i like it with high character guys. like ive said though, that doesnt mean "blank check" style negotiations. My crticism of Byrd as a player is strictly limited to his performance. I fully recognize his value in the locker room as a "football character" guy (I did that just for you). As I've said on numerous occasions here, he's one of the best in the game and the Bills' decision to tag him reflects that. I don't agree with the idea of paying him whatever he's asking though, considering the dynamics involved with building the team into a contender. We are just NOT a good FS away from the Lombardi. I'm surprised more don't seem to want to acknowledge that. No, top safety money is NOT Mario money. But a FS is NOT a DE in this league, either. GO BILLS!!! exactly. if we give him 8m, and he plays more like 7m... not the end of the world. if we give him 10m, and he plays like 4m it hurts pretty badly. i think his floor is pretty close to his asking price, even if his asking price might be at, or a smidge above the ceiling for his play.... if that makes a lick of sense. No matter what we give him, it won't make him any better or worse than he is as a player. The money really is immaterial from a performance standpoint. Not from a team structure standpoint, though. And that can't be readily dismissed. GO BILLS!!!
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