BuffaloBob Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Ya see, this is exactly what I'm talking about! "Leverage, Parker continued, depends not about what you have, but what you're willing to do." He cites the prisoner, willing to bloody himself as a way to get leverage for a cigarette. The prisoner in this case is willing to do harm to himself to get that leverage. That is why I think it's time teams turned this around on Eugene. Teams should be willing to do some things that may not be in their best interest to break this leverage he tries to create. Let Eugene know the team is willing to bloody itself a bit to neutralize his created leverage! Might make him think twice about his own position in the future. Edited July 17, 2013 by BuffaloBob
mitchmurraydowntown Posted July 17, 2013 Author Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) if you completely take money out of the picture, then the answer is YES. if you are taking the long term view, then overpaying players today can hurt you in the future. Again, are the Bills a better team with Byrd on the field ?? The money part Bryd is dreaming about isn't anything any other team would pay right now, he's not the best FS in the league. Expecting to be paid like a #1 means you're a #1, which Byrd isn't. Talk about a reach. Edited July 17, 2013 by mitchmurraydowntown
mrags Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Ya see, this is exactly what I'm talking about! "Leverage, Parker continued, depends not about what you have, but what you're willing to do." He cites the prisoner, willing to bloody himself as a way to get leverage for a cigarette. The prisoner in this case is willing to do harm to himself to get that leverage. That is why I think it's time teams turned this around on Eugene. Teams should be willing to do some things that may not be in their best interest to break this leverage he tries to create. Let Eugene know the team is willing to bloody itself a bit to neutralize his created leverage! Might make him think twice about his own position in the future. on the cigerette side, I've seen inmates fake a suicide attempt in order to get officers to show up. We take them to the infirmary because they threaten self harm. At that point we have to talk them out of suicide. It's really easy "would you rather kill yourself or have this cigerette?" They will reach for that cancer stick faster than Usain Bolt put of the blocks. Enough about funny stories in prison, I agree with everything you said about not caving to Parker anymore. I do feel Burd deserves to be the highest paid safety in the league. He might not be right now, but IMO he will be within a few more seasons. He will likely get better as he reaches his prime and within a few seasons, his contract will most likely just top the top 5 in money. At that point it will be a steal. I still don't want the Bills to pay him that much and I sure don't want to cave into Parker's demands.
ganesh Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 i think the question you have to ask is what would that 8 million per year do to the salary cap landscape over the next few years. there are players that are going to need new contracts as well as possible free agents. but i'm sure there will be cuts and restructures along the way as well. all in all, i would love to find out what the true economic situation of the bills looks like, as well as the true happenings of the byrd contract negotioations. Remember, if Lindell is let go and replaced by a rookie kicker, we will still save more money on the cap. Another casualty could be Brad Smith. If the Bills are truly using analytics and do find that the difference between a Veteran and a Rookie or a FA is not that big, they are going to trim that money of the roster. Additionally, the salary cap will increase in the next few years again. I think the Bills priority should still be to lock up Byrd, Wood and Spiller for the long run.
Best Player Available Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 And what do you have? Nothing! But then again, hearsay isn't my thing though.
mitchmurraydowntown Posted July 17, 2013 Author Posted July 17, 2013 Remember, if Lindell is let go and replaced by a rookie kicker, we will still save more money on the cap. Another casualty could be Brad Smith. If the Bills are truly using analytics and do find that the difference between a Veteran and a Rookie or a FA is not that big, they are going to trim that money of the roster. Additionally, the salary cap will increase in the next few years again. I think the Bills priority should still be to lock up Byrd, Wood and Spiller for the long run. Brad looks like a goner.
eball Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Remember, if Lindell is let go and replaced by a rookie kicker, we will still save more money on the cap. Another casualty could be Brad Smith. If the Bills are truly using analytics and do find that the difference between a Veteran and a Rookie or a FA is not that big, they are going to trim that money of the roster. Additionally, the salary cap will increase in the next few years again. I think the Bills priority should still be to lock up Byrd, Wood and Spiller for the long run. Don't underestimate Smith's value on ST overall. ST units suffer the most from veteran cuts, and you can bet Danny Crossman wants to keep some good vets on those units. Smith is not only good as a returner, he's one of the best coverage guys on the unit. His value as a WR if needed is a bonus. I really don't think they let Smith go -- but I've been wrong before.
8-8 Forever? Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) I dont think he was Peter . Quiet fellow really. If one of us is venomous , have you not become Mongoosian : ) You dont seem to care much for Byrd. as a representative of the Bills he has been all a team would wish for regardless of play. Hell they payed Kelsay for his character and hard work did they not ? Byrd has shown as much character as i see it. I will leave the quantifying his skills and abilities both past and future to the more able . Hmm... the Kelsey point is interesting, but Kelsey, like Stevie, Fitz and McGee and others before them, if you kiss the ring, you get paid. If you (like Peters) have an agent play hardball, you do not. Say goodbye to Byrd. He is likely gone due to the tactics and attitude of his pit bull agent (no disrespect). Assuming high-character Byrd personally really wants to stay, his mistake was hiring and being led by Eugene Parker, who has no use for such sentiments. Need to sign and trade him for a 2nd rounder next year or something like that (just as they did with Peters). Still a couple months to go, so we will see, but typically, Hardball negotiations are just not what this little backwater 3rd tier franchise does. They draft replacements and let the best players go. So many examples of this. Edited July 17, 2013 by 8and8Forever
Doc Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Nothing! But then again, hearsay isn't my thing though. Fair enough. But in the absence of any proof, reports corroborated by past history leads me to believe they want a contract in the $9M/year range.
GG Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Byrd wants to paid more than this guy: http://espn.go.com/b...n-goldsons-deal . It stands to reason because he's a better player than Goldson. That said, the Bills apparently don't put a high valuation on safeties. Which part of "Bills" don't put a high valuation on safeties? The front office or the coaching staff? This smacks me of your theory of Bills front office running negative hooks in the backchannel about players who they are unlikely to keep long term. And then everyone wonders why they have to way overpay to sign a Mario Williams, which of course leaves them with less flexibility to address other needs...
thebandit27 Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Which part of "Bills" don't put a high valuation on safeties? The front office or the coaching staff? This smacks me of your theory of Bills front office running negative hooks in the backchannel about players who they are unlikely to keep long term. And then everyone wonders why they have to way overpay to sign a Mario Williams, which of course leaves them with less flexibility to address other needs... The problem with this statement is that they didn't "way overpay" to sign Williams. The market was pretty clear based on Julius Peppers' contract that Williams was going to sign for right around $16M/year with around $50M guaranteed...if you go back to February, 2012 free-agency related articles, that's what most of the talking heads were predicting. If Buffalo hadn't given it to him, you can rest assured that Tennessee, Chicago, or someone else would have.
BuffaloBaumer Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 I would just trade this guy as soon as they get a good enough offer. He clearly is not a part of the future so, like the Ryan Miller situation, get the future playing sooner rather than later. The Bills players and coaches are all starting from scratch so let's get a guy at safety who will grow with the group as well.
GG Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 The problem with this statement is that they didn't "way overpay" to sign Williams. The market was pretty clear based on Julius Peppers' contract that Williams was going to sign for right around $16M/year with around $50M guaranteed...if you go back to February, 2012 free-agency related articles, that's what most of the talking heads were predicting. If Buffalo hadn't given it to him, you can rest assured that Tennessee, Chicago, or someone else would have. Williams received 25% more in guarantees, and he receives $40 mil in the contract's first two years vs Peppers getting $40 mil over the first three years. Plus when you look around the league at DE contracts, Mario's truly stands out.
Coach Tuesday Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 The problem with this statement is that they didn't "way overpay" to sign Williams. The market was pretty clear based on Julius Peppers' contract that Williams was going to sign for right around $16M/year with around $50M guaranteed...if you go back to February, 2012 free-agency related articles, that's what most of the talking heads were predicting. If Buffalo hadn't given it to him, you can rest assured that Tennessee, Chicago, or someone else would have. Just because other teams would've overpaid if the Bills didn't, doesn't mean they didn't overpay relative to his value on the field. Clearly, they did. In my view, however, it was a good move because it signaled to the league and the team that ownership is willing to spend money to compete, something that has been in serious doubt.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Williams received 25% more in guarantees, and he receives $40 mil in the contract's first two years vs Peppers getting $40 mil over the first three years. Plus when you look around the league at DE contracts, Mario's truly stands out. On the other hand though Peppers signed his contract 2 years previous to Mario's so there was more or less the normal amount of inflation, The reason Byrd wants to be highest paid is presumably because he knows that subsequent safety contracts will exceed his. However with a suddenly flat salary cap, this may or may not be as true as it has been in the past.
thebandit27 Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Williams received 25% more in guarantees, and he receives $40 mil in the contract's first two years vs Peppers getting $40 mil over the first three years. Plus when you look around the league at DE contracts, Mario's truly stands out. Based on 2 years of market escalation and a new CBA, those increases are quite reasonable. It's also worth mentioning that the reason Williams' and Peppers' contracts stand out is that it's extremely rare to see a top pass rusher hit the open market; and players tend to get more once they get there than they do if their current team extends them. Just because other teams would've overpaid if the Bills didn't, doesn't mean they didn't overpay relative to his value on the field. Clearly, they did. In my view, however, it was a good move because it signaled to the league and the team that ownership is willing to spend money to compete, something that has been in serious doubt. Can't say I agree with the bolded...once Williams had his surgery, he was every bit the player they expected him to be IMO...the rest of your post is spot on. On the other hand though Peppers signed his contract 2 years previous to Mario's so there was more or less the normal amount of inflation, The reason Byrd wants to be highest paid is presumably because he knows that subsequent safety contracts will exceed his. However with a suddenly flat salary cap, this may or may not be as true as it has been in the past. Well said.
All_Pro_Bills Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Ya see, this is exactly what I'm talking about! "Leverage, Parker continued, depends not about what you have, but what you're willing to do." He cites the prisoner, willing to bloody himself as a way to get leverage for a cigarette. The prisoner in this case is willing to do harm to himself to get that leverage. That is why I think it's time teams turned this around on Eugene. Teams should be willing to do some things that may not be in their best interest to break this leverage he tries to create. Let Eugene know the team is willing to bloody itself a bit to neutralize his created leverage! Might make him think twice about his own position in the future. No question the Bills are a better team with Byrd its just a question of terms and conditions. Having read elsewhere that Byrd/Parker want him to be paid as the highest paid safety in the league doesn't leave a lot of bargaining room and Parker's perceived position of 'my way or the highway' along with the disparity between that and the teams position (which they've been pretty quiet about) doesn't leave a lot of room for compromise. If I was the Bills I would make this offer. You are unwilling to move from your position that your client should be the highest paid safety in the league and we are unwilling to meet that demand. So we are at an impasse. Therefore, you have the teams permission to seek a trade with one of the other 31 teams in the league but under specific conditions. We will trade your client to another team, and expect compensation of a 1st round draft choice in return, but the contract with that other team must make your client the highest paid safety in the league. And the contact must be structured and administered in what is considered standard and normal terms. If after 2 weeks you are not able to work such a deal with another team then you agree to come back to the bargaining table and act in good faith to reach and agreement that is acceptable and fair to both parties. That will settle the value argument and move towards some resolution.
BuffBill Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Might as well trade his rights and get something for him. Odds are he is gone after this year now, as are most players that have to play under the franchise tag-remember Nate Clements?
NoSaint Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 On the other hand though Peppers signed his contract 2 years previous to Mario's so there was more or less the normal amount of inflation, The reason Byrd wants to be highest paid is presumably because he knows that subsequent safety contracts will exceed his. However with a suddenly flat salary cap, this may or may not be as true as it has been in the past. not enough anger, too much common sense and fair commentary.
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