NoSaint Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) As much as people try to poo-poo Stevie putting up 1,000 yards 3 years in a row, (because its "so easy" to put up 1,000 as a WR, or so i have been told) he's one of 7 WRs to do that in the last 3 years. Here's the other 6: Megatron, Fitzgerald, A. Johnson, Colston, Marshall, R. White I don't think there's any argument that those guys are clear cut #1 WRs, yet we've got people still claiming Stevie's nothing more than a number 2. No matter how you cut it, he's in some elite company. Kind of an arbitrary standard that ignores guys like aj green and Julio jones who have played only two years, or Vincent Jackson who if you toss out the holdout year has been about 1100+ for his last 4 full seasons (including near 1400 last year)..... Or Reggie Wayne who came up 40 yards shy of 9 straight, including several monster ones mixed in. It's nice but its a sign of consistency (and health) more than explosive game changing ability. Edited June 10, 2013 by NoSaint
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Kind of an arbitrary standard that ignores guys like aj green and Julio jones who have played only two years, or Vincent Jackson who if you toss out the holdout year has been about 1100+ for his last 4 full seasons (including near 1400 last year)..... It's nice but its a sign of consistency (and health) more than explosive game changing ability. Consistency and health (like SJ) are being underrated here. At least, that's what I'm arguing. I do agree that that's a bit of an arbitrary standard, but say we factor in those three guys. Still puts him in the company of 10 great receivers despite playing with the worst QB of the lot.
NoSaint Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Consistency and health (like SJ) are being underrated here. At least, that's what I'm arguing. I do agree that that's a bit of an arbitrary standard, but say we factor in those three guys. Still puts him in the company of 10 great receivers despite playing with the worst QB of the lot. Just went back and added Reggie Wayne's epic run, which he missed by 40 yards once which happened to be within the last 3 years. I'd imagine the adding to the list could go on, and you'd quickly walk Stevie back to the 3rd quartile (16-24) varying a bit in there depending on who you ask. To put him top ten, I don't think is a fair assessment.
mrags Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Just went back and added Reggie Wayne's epic run, which he missed by 40 yards once which happened to be within the last 3 years. I'd imagine the adding to the list could go on, and you'd quickly walk Stevie back to the 3rd quartile (16-24) varying a bit in there depending on who you ask. To put him top ten, I don't think is a fair assessment. i might agree that a top 10 might not be the best place to rank Stevie. But here's a good question, right now, who would you rather have, Stevie or Wayne? Wayne's getting a bit old and seems to be winding down. Where Stevie is still hitting his prime, and with a new offense and a new set of QBs in his future, clearly better than what he's had in the past, it's a no brainier IMO.
NoSaint Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) i might agree that a top 10 might not be the best place to rank Stevie. But here's a good question, right now, who would you rather have, Stevie or Wayne? Wayne's getting a bit old and seems to be winding down. Where Stevie is still hitting his prime, and with a new offense and a new set of QBs in his future, clearly better than what he's had in the past, it's a no brainier IMO. Depends - are we talking signing a 5 year deal? Building a 1 game only team for this week? Career head to head, age removed from the equation? I'd also say even if Wayne suffers on some of those guys like dez or damaryius Thomas would solidify themselves ahead of him (despite not making the list of 1000 yards for the last 3 seasons) Edited June 10, 2013 by NoSaint
Alphadawg7 Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 well, if he's between the 15th and 30th best in the league that should make him a number one. Considering there are 32 #1s in the league. But lets out it another way, since you stated his statistical production for jump balls and break away speed. How many WRs have the games against Revis that Stevie does? How many people have been able to consistently get open the way Stevie does against the other number 1 CBs in the league? The fact is, just because someone doesn't have breakaway speed or supreme jumping ability, doesn't mean they aren't a number 1. What are your opinions of Andre Reed? Do you think he was a number 1? Do you think he deserves to be in the HOF? Being younger during his playing days it's hard for me to say, but in going to lump Stevie and his skill up there with Chris Carter. They seem very similar to me. Anyone can flame all they want, but at the end of the day, when his career is over, Stevie will go down as the most decorated Bills WR in history. Time will tell and in about 7 years ill be drinking a cold one to his career. Just because there are 32 teams does not in anyway mean there are 32 "#1" type WRs in the NFL. Always make me laugh when I see people make such a silly comment.
mrags Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Depends - are we talking signing a 5 year deal? Building a 1 game only team for this week? Career head to head, age removed from the equation? I'd also say even if Wayne suffers on some of those guys like dez or damaryius Thomas would solidify themselves ahead of him (despite not making the list of 1000 yards for the last 3 seasons) id take Stevie in a heartbeat over Wayne right now. Regardless if one game or 5 years. Stevie is better at this point in thier careers. I wish there was a way to flip flop thier careers with QBs and see who would be better. If put money in Stevie but I won't argue that Wayne was amazing for a time. Bit Manning seems to do that no matter who his WRs are. It's funny how Wayne, Harrison, Garçon, and Clark were all amazing with Manning throwing them the ball.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 i agree with all of this. Except the K. Williams and Fred Jackson part. I will not deny they are good, used to be really good. But they are diminishing and suffering from some injuries in their older age. I do not think that they are the players that they were either. I was just trying to make a point about how people on here dislike all things Bills. Kind of strange Just because there are 32 teams does not in anyway mean there are 32 "#1" type WRs in the NFL. Always make me laugh when I see people make such a silly comment. I guess that we are talking semantics but I disagree. By definition there are 32 #1 WR just like there are 32 #1 QBs or 32 punters. That does not mean that they are all equal but there are 32. In order to be defined as a #1 you have to be one of the top 32 which Stevie is.
NoSaint Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 id take Stevie in a heartbeat over Wayne right now. Regardless if one game or 5 years. Stevie is better at this point in thier careers. I wish there was a way to flip flop thier careers with QBs and see who would be better. If put money in Stevie but I won't argue that Wayne was amazing for a time. Bit Manning seems to do that no matter who his WRs are. It's funny how Wayne, Harrison, Garçon, and Clark were all amazing with Manning throwing them the ball. Even without manning, and at this age, Reggie Wayne has 200 more yards the last two years, than Stevie in his best two.... So....there's that. I like Stevie a lot, I just think he's likely behind a lot of those guys. If we were debating bumping him to the tail end of the group ahead of where this puts him (ie ahead of shorts, decker) I'd say sure thing good conversation but top 10 (or 15) I don't buy. I do not think that they are the players that they were either. I was just trying to make a point about how people on here dislike all things Bills. Kind of strange I guess that we are talking semantics but I disagree. By definition there are 32 #1 WR just like there are 32 #1 QBs or 32 punters. That does not mean that they are all equal but there are 32. In order to be defined as a #1 you have to be one of the top 32 which Stevie is. Mixed bag. Qb ill agree more than WR. It gets back the the age old franchise qb or feature WR, vs just top on the depth chart. Stevie's definitely a top 32 we but you'd be hardpressed to tell me the loser of nicks vs Cruz or white vs jones isn't a better feature wideout
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Even without manning, and at this age, Reggie Wayne has 200 more yards the last two years, than Stevie in his best two.... So....there's that. I like Stevie a lot, I just think he's likely behind a lot of those guys. If we were debating bumping him to the tail end of the group ahead of where this puts him (ie ahead of shorts, decker) I'd say sure thing good conversation but top 10 (or 15) I don't buy. Mixed bag. Qb ill agree more than WR. It gets back the the age old franchise qb or feature WR, vs just top on the depth chart. Stevie's definitely a top 32 we but you'd be hardpressed to tell me the loser of nicks vs Cruz or white vs jones isn't a better feature wideout Just went back and added Reggie Wayne's epic run, which he missed by 40 yards once which happened to be within the last 3 years. I'd imagine the adding to the list could go on, and you'd quickly walk Stevie back to the 3rd quartile (16-24) varying a bit in there depending on who you ask. To put him top ten, I don't think is a fair assessment. Let me agree that he is not necessarily top 10, but I think he's easily top 18 and he gets good marks for the health and consistency. You simply need guys you can depend upon, and I think he has been that without a whole lot else happening around him (consistently).
NoSaint Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Let me agree that he is not necessarily top 10, but I think he's easily top 18 and he gets good marks for the health and consistency. You simply need guys you can depend upon, and I think he has been that without a whole lot else happening around him (consistently). I don't know how much higher than 18 you can get, even if you give the ties to our guy. Hopefully we can see what he can do fully healthy (seems like he's always on the verge of out despite always suiting up) and with (what we all are hoping is) a better qb and WR talent.
mrags Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Even without manning, and at this age, Reggie Wayne has 200 more yards the last two years, than Stevie in his best two.... So....there's that. I like Stevie a lot, I just think he's likely behind a lot of those guys. If we were debating bumping him to the tail end of the group ahead of where this puts him (ie ahead of shorts, decker) I'd say sure thing good conversation but top 10 (or 15) I don't buy. Mixed bag. Qb ill agree more than WR. It gets back the the age old franchise qb or feature WR, vs just top on the depth chart. Stevie's definitely a top 32 we but you'd be hardpressed to tell me the loser of nicks vs Cruz or white vs jones isn't a better feature wideout at this point I would not say Stevie is a top 10. Possibly too 15 though. But definately top 20 IMO. Off the top of my head, here's the list of WRs that are better than SJ13. Megatron A. Johnson Fitz White Green Welker Marshall Jennings Colston Bowe In the same conversation as SJ13 I'd add the following. Nicks Jones Cruz DeSean Jackson Vincent Jackson Wallace Nelson Steve Smith Bryant Lloyd Harvin Stevie is mixed in somewhere with that 2nd group guaranteed and possibly near the bottom of the first group. My opinion of course.
DanInUticaTampa Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 That's a pretty bad list. Especially the group right in front of Stevie. Cecil Shorts, Eric Decker, Pierre Garçon, Antonio Brown, and Jeremy Maclin are better than Stevie? That's a joke. That isn't a a very big stretch, and I love Stevie.
NoSaint Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 at this point I would not say Stevie is a top 10. Possibly too 15 though. But definately top 20 IMO. Off the top of my head, here's the list of WRs that are better than SJ13. Megatron A. Johnson Fitz White Green Welker Marshall Jennings Colston Bowe In the same conversation as SJ13 I'd add the following. Nicks Jones Cruz DeSean Jackson Vincent Jackson Wallace Nelson Steve Smith Bryant Lloyd Harvin Stevie is mixed in somewhere with that 2nd group guaranteed and possibly near the bottom of the first group. My opinion of course. Fair enough, and I appreciate you taking the time to list it out. Mine doesn't totally match, but atleast a starting point- I'd bump Vincent Jackson up, I think nicks and Cruz are above him, Julio jones is a beast. Dez and harvin go above him easily in my book, even noting their issues..... The older guys are an interesting spot - like I said before- it depends if your weighing a 5 year deal, suit up week one, or what they've proven. I'm curious how you put welker so high, smith mid tier and Wayne washed up (I know welkers a hair younger, but it seems like a wiiiide variance on 3 older guys that all produced last year, and I might argue welker the least talented of the 3) And then I think you start talking about the differences between jordy Nelson vs Stevie for instance, or a Wallace or antonio browm who are more explosive players but less well rounded (throw in desean, but note health issues and diva stuff) I think that's the real meat and potatoes of the talk. Really hard for me to stop short of the mid/late teens and then unless everything Stevie's way (ie youth is a big plus, health is higher than measureables, etc...) you could still slide a couple names in probably
mrags Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Fair enough, and I appreciate you taking the time to list it out. Mine doesn't totally match, but atleast a starting point- I'd bump Vincent Jackson up, I think nicks and Cruz are above him, Julio jones is a beast. Dez and harvin go above him easily in my book, even noting their issues..... The older guys are an interesting spot - like I said before- it depends if your weighing a 5 year deal, suit up week one, or what they've proven. I'm curious how you put welker so high, smith mid tier and Wayne washed up (I know welkers a hair younger, but it seems like a wiiiide variance on 3 older guys that all produced last year, and I might argue welker the least talented of the 3) And then I think you start talking about the differences between jordy Nelson vs Stevie for instance, or a Wallace or antonio browm who are more explosive players but less well rounded (throw in desean, but note health issues and diva stuff) I think that's the real meat and potatoes of the talk. Really hard for me to stop short of the mid/late teens and then unless everything Stevie's way (ie youth is a big plus, health is higher than measureables, etc...) you could still slide a couple names in probably i didn't necessarily list them in order. Just pulled em off the top of my head and looking at the teams of the league and who I could definately place in the conversation. Of course there's some additional guys that could be added. Brown, Holmes for example could belong on the conversation. But for sale of argument, I think I did pretty well off the top of my head. There's also some guys in the too 10 that Stevie might be better than as well. Bowe for example is absolutely top 10 IMO but many might not have him in that group and he's iffy at times as well. I also think Nelson and Jennings are borderline as well. You could really argue that year by year it changes. Players are not always consistant. Stevie IMO however has been the benchmark for consistency. Maybe not in the same conversation as a Megatron or Welker but he's definately in there with the Nicks and Cruz' of the argument. Honestly, depending on how one views importance of playmaking ability and the most recent seasons stats of some of those guys in that list, it would be touch to not bunch Stevie within that group of 20. Depending in where you rank them all, he could be as low as 8-10 or as high as 17-20.
ny33 Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) #28 Steve Johnson " Johnson has been stretched as the Bills' No. 1 receiver." Again no love for the Buffalo Bills. I think this ranking is complete horse crap considering his stats on comparison with other receivers and his shear consistency. Thoughts? What does Stevie shear? I don't think he's particularly good with sheep. I think many of you are severely underrating Hakeem Nicks and Vincent Jackson. Edited June 10, 2013 by ny33
Alphadawg7 Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) I do not think that they are the players that they were either. I was just trying to make a point about how people on here dislike all things Bills. Kind of strange I guess that we are talking semantics but I disagree. By definition there are 32 #1 WR just like there are 32 #1 QBs or 32 punters. That does not mean that they are all equal but there are 32. In order to be defined as a #1 you have to be one of the top 32 which Stevie is. That's not true, there are many #2 WRs and some #3 WRs that are better than some other teams #1 WRs. Just like there are back up QBs better than other teams starting QB. Just because you are at the top of a depth chart on one team does not mean you would be on other teams. Being one of the 32 starting QBs in the NFL does not make you automatically one of the 32 best QBs in the NFL. So no offense, but everything you just said is incorrect because this isn't about a teams depth chart, this is about overall ranking of all WRs in the NFL, and whether said WRs are legit "#1 type" WRs, not the literal listing on their personal teams depth chart. And the jury is still out on Stevie. Edited June 10, 2013 by Alphadawg7
Kirby Jackson Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) That's not true, there are many #2 WRs and some #3 WRs that are better than some other teams #1 WRs. Just like there are back up QBs better than other teams starting QB. Just because you are at the top of a depth chart on one team does not mean you would be on other teams. Being one of the 32 starting QBs in the NFL does not make you automatically one of the 32 best QBs in the NFL. So no offense, but everything you just said is incorrect because this isn't about a teams depth chart, this is about overall ranking of all WRs in the NFL, and whether said WRs are legit "#1 type" WRs, not the literal listing on their personal teams depth chart. And the jury is still out on Stevie. Again, semantics. I think that Julio Jones and Roddy White are both #1 WR. I am not saying that Stevie is a #1 b/c he is tops on the depth chart but b/c he is one of the 32 best WR in football. That's just how I view it. By the same token I am not sure that the Bills have a #1 QB until EJ develops a bit. It will not take much to move into the Matt Flynn territory (who I consider a borderline #1). Edited June 10, 2013 by Kirby Jackson
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