The great Jim Brown

[Mickey]

I don't know if this is the right forum for this topic. If it isn't, I'm certain that someone will remove it or criticize me for posting it but here goes.

 

I'm old enough to remember the great Jim Brown; the power, the speed, and the disappointment upon hearing of his somewhat premature retirement. He really was an amazing athlete.

 

Jim Brown always impressed me as an angry black man; angry about the treatment of minorities in 1950/1960 America and for good reason. But it was his always seemingly angry atitude that I noticed. He always had a chip on his shoulders.

 

Brown had a problem, a few years ago, with Mike Holmgren and his Cleveland Brown's staff. He apparently did not feel he received the respect he feels he deserves. He recently appeared on the NFL Network and was introduced as "the great Jim Brown". Later one of the regulars on the program stated, "Jim Brown's greatness will always be respected". I wish I knew the inside story of what went on with Brown and Holmgren but I can't help but wonder if Brown, himself, isn't part of the problem. Does he expect homage a bit too much?

 

I recall when he and the beautiful Raquel Welch made 100 Rifles years ago. There was a kissing scene between the two and Welch wrote in a book years later that she was angred when Brown thrust his tongue into her mouth during that scene.

 

Does Jim Brown seem to expect a little too much homage beyond what he earned as a football player. I'd welcome the opinion of others that read this forum. Does he come across to you as a little too entitled?

 

He had a lot to be angry about. Wanting to drink out of the same drinking fountain as everyone else doesn't seem to me to be too entitled. As for the Raquel Welch bs, the real story is that the filming of that movie was a day to day pain in the neck because of the over-pampered, untalented Diva and her unprofessional behavior. Many on the set complained, including Brown and since that is where the juicy story was, his complaints got all the press. Welch has been eternally ticked off since then and got back at Brown with the whole story about the french kiss. Many, many bigots and racists lost their minds over that scene and the crap that Brown had to endure over a simple, G-rated love scene because of the color of his skin was inexcusable. Again, the man has a lot to be angry about.

 

He did not receive a scholarship to SU. He was warned by the head coach, several other coaches and white players that he could not date white girls and was told by the Freshman coach, that he couldn't run and was kept on the bench despite being the biggest and fastest player on the team, by far. He was also the only african-american on the entire freshman team. He was on of only 10 black students in a class of 1,627 students. One of the few former black SU players, Wilmeth Sadat Singh was not allowed to play, by his own coaches in a game against Maryland; they had mad a "gentleman's agreement" not to play a black player against the Terrapins. The chancellor at Syracuse had advised the director of admissions to make it harder to admit african americans. Brown only went to Syracuse because an attorney in his hometown (Ken Molloy) was an SU alum and a former lacrosse star. Roy Simmons was the coach of the SU lacrosse team (and a former QB on the football team). Brown, tired of the abuse he was singled out for during practices nearly quit several times but was talked out of it by Molloy and Simmons. Molloy personally raised the funds for Brown's education at Syracuse.

 

Many people don't realize that Brown was a great basketball player, averaging 38 points per game as a shooting forward for his high school team. He played for Syracuse but despite his talent and brilliant performances as sub, he couldn't crack the starting line-up because of the "rule of two" which was that teams would not play more than two black players on the floor at any given time. Syracuse had two black stars on scholarship, Vinnie Cohen and Manny Breland thus Brown was the odd black man out. Brown was the second leading scorer on the team playing as a sub in his Junior year. Frustrated with the lack of playing time based solely on the color of his skin, Brown quit the team and did not play in his senior year.

 

Despite all he endured at SU, this angry, "too entitled" black man returned to SU in 1970 to try and mediate between the coaches and the african american players who had boycotted the team after finally becoming fed up with the racist treatment they received. Brown was unable to resolve the dispute because coach Schwartzwalder refused to make a single concession. A University investigation of the incident concluded that the coaching staff was rife with "chronic racism".

 

That is just a little bit of what he endured over his career and I am willing to bet that all that stuff is far, far less known then that crap, press agent invented, story about Welch and Brown.

 

I realize that just because Brown endured boatloads of racism over his entire life doesn't mean that he isn't, on a personal level, something of a jerk. But before you start brining up a bs story about a hack actress and throwing around suggestions of Brown being "...too entitled..." or having an "angry attitude" and expecting "too much homage", maybe, just maybe you ought to do about 3 minutes worth of research to see if there is anything that contradicts your blurb about an angry arrogant black man who expects the world to kiss his but while he sticks his tongue down the throats of unsuspecting white girls.

 

Good life lesson#1: when you hear a story too ridiculous to be true, chances are it isn't true.

Good life lesson#2: there are an endless number of racists willing to tell any lie about a successful black man.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

I realize that just because Brown endured boatloads of racism over his entire life doesn't mean that he isn't, on a personal level, something of a jerk. But before you start brining up a bs story about a hack actress and throwing around suggestions of Brown being "...too entitled..." or having an "angry attitude" and expecting "too much homage", maybe, just maybe you ought to do about 3 minutes worth of research to see if there is anything that contradicts your blurb about an angry arrogant black man who expects the world to kiss his but while he sticks his tongue down the throats of unsuspecting white girls.

 

Good life lesson#1: when you hear a story too ridiculous to be true, chances are it isn't true.

Good life lesson#2: there are an endless number of racists willing to tell any lie about a successful black man.

 

Actually, my point went unnoticed because of the volume of this debate. The person Jim Brown obviously is not like many of the other athletes of his generation, and he has a personality problem. If the guy is a wife beater and is proven to be a jerk because of how he acts long after his playing career was over, then people have a right to call it as they see it. Here is my example HOF list of players who don't have the image problem Jim Brown does:

 

Lenny Moore, Baltimore Colts, b. 1933: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-11-23/sports/bs-sp-catching-up-lenny-moore-20111123_1_joe-paterno-lenny-moore-penn-state

Willie Davis, Cleveland Browns/Green Bay Packers, b. 1934: http://www.lasportshall.com/inductees/football/willie-davis/

Jim Parker, Baltimore Colts, b. 1934: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bal-sp.parker19jul19,0,2116898.story

 

Did they have any less of a past of overt racism as Jim Brown did? Did they suffer any less than Jim Brown did? Probably not... he reacted poorly to the bad things that happened to him, and that's a choice he made, not anyone else.

Edited June 5, 2013 by BmoreBills

[Cheddar's Dad]

He had a lot to be angry about. Wanting to drink out of the same drinking fountain as everyone else doesn't seem to me to be too entitled. As for the Raquel Welch bs, the real story is that the filming of that movie was a day to day pain in the neck because of the over-pampered, untalented Diva and her unprofessional behavior. Many on the set complained, including Brown and since that is where the juicy story was, his complaints got all the press. Welch has been eternally ticked off since then and got back at Brown with the whole story about the french kiss. Many, many bigots and racists lost their minds over that scene and the crap that Brown had to endure over a simple, G-rated love scene because of the color of his skin was inexcusable. Again, the man has a lot to be angry about.

 

He did not receive a scholarship to SU. He was warned by the head coach, several other coaches and white players that he could not date white girls and was told by the Freshman coach, that he couldn't run and was kept on the bench despite being the biggest and fastest player on the team, by far. He was also the only african-american on the entire freshman team. He was on of only 10 black students in a class of 1,627 students. One of the few former black SU players, Wilmeth Sadat Singh was not allowed to play, by his own coaches in a game against Maryland; they had mad a "gentleman's agreement" not to play a black player against the Terrapins. The chancellor at Syracuse had advised the director of admissions to make it harder to admit african americans. Brown only went to Syracuse because an attorney in his hometown (Ken Molloy) was an SU alum and a former lacrosse star. Roy Simmons was the coach of the SU lacrosse team (and a former QB on the football team). Brown, tired of the abuse he was singled out for during practices nearly quit several times but was talked out of it by Molloy and Simmons. Molloy personally raised the funds for Brown's education at Syracuse.

 

Many people don't realize that Brown was a great basketball player, averaging 38 points per game as a shooting forward for his high school team. He played for Syracuse but despite his talent and brilliant performances as sub, he couldn't crack the starting line-up because of the "rule of two" which was that teams would not play more than two black players on the floor at any given time. Syracuse had two black stars on scholarship, Vinnie Cohen and Manny Breland thus Brown was the odd black man out. Brown was the second leading scorer on the team playing as a sub in his Junior year. Frustrated with the lack of playing time based solely on the color of his skin, Brown quit the team and did not play in his senior year.

 

Despite all he endured at SU, this angry, "too entitled" black man returned to SU in 1970 to try and mediate between the coaches and the african american players who had boycotted the team after finally becoming fed up with the racist treatment they received. Brown was unable to resolve the dispute because coach Schwartzwalder refused to make a single concession. A University investigation of the incident concluded that the coaching staff was rife with "chronic racism".

 

That is just a little bit of what he endured over his career and I am willing to bet that all that stuff is far, far less known then that crap, press agent invented, story about Welch and Brown.

 

I realize that just because Brown endured boatloads of racism over his entire life doesn't mean that he isn't, on a personal level, something of a jerk. But before you start brining up a bs story about a hack actress and throwing around suggestions of Brown being "...too entitled..." or having an "angry attitude" and expecting "too much homage", maybe, just maybe you ought to do about 3 minutes worth of research to see if there is anything that contradicts your blurb about an angry arrogant black man who expects the world to kiss his but while he sticks his tongue down the throats of unsuspecting white girls.

 

Good life lesson#1: when you hear a story too ridiculous to be true, chances are it isn't true.

Good life lesson#2: there are an endless number of racists willing to tell any lie about a successful black man.

 

What is too ridiculous to be true? Welch's claim of the kissing incident? Brown has a history of aggressive behavior toward women. Some of that behavior was criminal in nature. The aggresiveness tends to support Welch's story. Tell me; what do you have to disprove the story? I'll bet nothing. Yet you degrade her calling her a overpampered, untalented, hack actress. Did you experience the details of what you wrote here about Brown or get it from a book. There is anger in your accounting for Brown's history and I'd like to know why.

 

You think I should do research? I don't think I need to. Many people that have commented here have already done that for me. Tell me, where are the lies? I'm willing to listen and then do some research to see if your list of alleged lies is a valid one. If it is, I'll give you credit.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

He had a lot to be angry about. Wanting to drink out of the same drinking fountain as everyone else doesn't seem to me to be too entitled. As for the Raquel Welch bs, the real story is that the filming of that movie was a day to day pain in the neck because of the over-pampered, untalented Diva and her unprofessional behavior. Many on the set complained, including Brown and since that is where the juicy story was, his complaints got all the press. Welch has been eternally ticked off since then and got back at Brown with the whole story about the french kiss. Many, many bigots and racists lost their minds over that scene and the crap that Brown had to endure over a simple, G-rated love scene because of the color of his skin was inexcusable. Again, the man has a lot to be angry about.

 

He did not receive a scholarship to SU. He was warned by the head coach, several other coaches and white players that he could not date white girls and was told by the Freshman coach, that he couldn't run and was kept on the bench despite being the biggest and fastest player on the team, by far. He was also the only african-american on the entire freshman team. He was on of only 10 black students in a class of 1,627 students. One of the few former black SU players, Wilmeth Sadat Singh was not allowed to play, by his own coaches in a game against Maryland; they had mad a "gentleman's agreement" not to play a black player against the Terrapins. The chancellor at Syracuse had advised the director of admissions to make it harder to admit african americans. Brown only went to Syracuse because an attorney in his hometown (Ken Molloy) was an SU alum and a former lacrosse star. Roy Simmons was the coach of the SU lacrosse team (and a former QB on the football team). Brown, tired of the abuse he was singled out for during practices nearly quit several times but was talked out of it by Molloy and Simmons. Molloy personally raised the funds for Brown's education at Syracuse.

 

Many people don't realize that Brown was a great basketball player, averaging 38 points per game as a shooting forward for his high school team. He played for Syracuse but despite his talent and brilliant performances as sub, he couldn't crack the starting line-up because of the "rule of two" which was that teams would not play more than two black players on the floor at any given time. Syracuse had two black stars on scholarship, Vinnie Cohen and Manny Breland thus Brown was the odd black man out. Brown was the second leading scorer on the team playing as a sub in his Junior year. Frustrated with the lack of playing time based solely on the color of his skin, Brown quit the team and did not play in his senior year.

 

Despite all he endured at SU, this angry, "too entitled" black man returned to SU in 1970 to try and mediate between the coaches and the african american players who had boycotted the team after finally becoming fed up with the racist treatment they received. Brown was unable to resolve the dispute because coach Schwartzwalder refused to make a single concession. A University investigation of the incident concluded that the coaching staff was rife with "chronic racism".

 

That is just a little bit of what he endured over his career and I am willing to bet that all that stuff is far, far less known then that crap, press agent invented, story about Welch and Brown.

 

I realize that just because Brown endured boatloads of racism over his entire life doesn't mean that he isn't, on a personal level, something of a jerk. But before you start brining up a bs story about a hack actress and throwing around suggestions of Brown being "...too entitled..." or having an "angry attitude" and expecting "too much homage", maybe, just maybe you ought to do about 3 minutes worth of research to see if there is anything that contradicts your blurb about an angry arrogant black man who expects the world to kiss his but while he sticks his tongue down the throats of unsuspecting white girls.

 

Good life lesson#1: when you hear a story too ridiculous to be true, chances are it isn't true.

Good life lesson#2: there are an endless number of racists willing to tell any lie about a successful black man.

 

Re-entering the discussion (again against my better judgement), the history of the discrimination against Jim Brown is very well-documented. Most of what you mention are things I'd heard before.

 

Let me make a few points in this discussion:

 

- Jim Brown's behavior around women is indefensible.

 

- Aside from that, he is as I said before, a complex and problematic person who has done some good work with organizations and ministries which serve young men mixed up in gang culture.

 

- The fact of exemplary conduct by others of his generation doesn't automatically indict Brown for his transgressions. Brown existed at a much higher level of visibility than any other black athletes of his time excepting a small handful like Wilt Chamberlain and Muhammad Ali. As such, he was a leader of a movement, a much more polarizing figure, and a lightning rod for criticism. In that sense it's not really fair to compare him to other black athletes. You don't compare Dwayne Wade to Michael Jordan. You don't compare Steven Curry to LeBron James. You don't compare Yani Tseng to Tiger Woods. They are not equivalents. Brown was one of the biggest sports stars in the country and yes, he was angry.

 

- Jim Brown had a lot to be angry about as did fellow icons Ali and Chamberlain. There were many other angry black men who were not as well known (Cookie Gilchrist for example) simply because they weren't as famous. There were angry black men that came before Brown such as Jackie Robinson who benefited from having a few key supporters and came at a time before the stormy 1960s of social unrest. Again that some others chose a quieter path doesn't necessarily make them more virtuous. While the term "Uncle Tom" is misunderstood and misapplied, it has basically come to mean a black person who has sold out to white civilization. One can argue that some of the quieter black athletes of Brown's generation simply lacked the courage and the conviction to fight for equal rights in order to preserve a paycheck. In this case who has more virtue? Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan have come under criticism for doing nothing to further the cause of people of color. Woods and Jordan have been called "Uncle Toms."

 

Point is, Brown was angry and had a lot to be angry about and he chose to wear his anger publicly. He demanded that he be taken for what he was and wasn't going to compromise. Was his behavior exemplary? No. Could his conduct be understood? Perhaps by extremely empathetic people or by those who've had similar life experiences or perhaps by those who choose not to judge others with whom they're not really familiar.

 

Would Brown be a sympathetic person in a largely white culture? No. He's a big, strong, militant, threatening black man. Of course not.

 

Finally a word about the word "entitled" in this conversation. Entitled is not accurate of Brown's behavior IMO although this might be a semantic argument. Being entitled tends to suggest a person is spoiled in their expectations.

 

Brown was angry. He was DEFIANT. He refused to be treated as a second class citizen and demanded that he be treated equally.

 

I hope this conversation can continue civilly and in the spirit of furthering understanding.

[Buftex]

I think the more we talk about this, the less I understand what you mean about "understanding". Many of the issues that people have with Jim Brown have nothing to do with the color of his skin, but the content of his character.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think the more we talk about this, the less I understand what you mean about "understanding". Many of the issues that people have with Jim Brown have nothing to do with the color of his skin, but the content of his character.

 

I would say that if Brown hadn't committed acts of violence against women, many people would still dislike him.

 

People didn't like Muhammad Ali and he never did anything bad except be honest about his feelings.

 

When I say understanding I'm talking about:

 

1) Understanding one's feelings towards another person and what causes them and

 

2) The self-understanding of why we feel the way we do about others.

 

Are you saying that race and skin color played no part in the person Jim Brown became?

 

Are you saying that race and skin color play no part in the way people feel towards him?

 

You can surely speak for yourself but I don't know how you can speak for others.

[Bufcomments]

I think the more we talk about this, the less I understand what you mean about "understanding". Many of the issues that people have with Jim Brown have nothing to do with the color of his skin, but the content of his character.

Exactly....well said

 

I just wont judge anybody I have never meet in person. I have never meet Mr. Brown . But I do respect what he did as a Black player back in the 60's. He made a name for himself and prolly went threw hell to do it.

[Buftex]

I would say that if Brown hadn't committed acts of violence against women, many people would still dislike him.

 

People didn't like Muhammad Ali and he never did anything bad except be honest about his feelings.

 

When I say understanding I'm talking about:

 

1) Understanding one's feelings towards another person and what causes them and

 

2) The self-understanding of why we feel the way we do about others.

 

Are you saying that race and skin color played no part in the person Jim Brown became?

 

Are you saying that race and skin color play no part in the way people feel towards him?

 

You can surely speak for yourself but I don't know how you can speak for others.

 

No, I am not saying that at all. Race is obviously an issue, because Brown always makes sure that it is.

 

What I dislike about Brown, at the core, is he has railed against our racist soeciety, but rarely fails to co-opt racism to take the spotlight off of his own failings as a man. He has made them part of issues where they don't belong. He has been playing the "race card" long after the game was over.

 

Believe me, I am not discounting the things that Brown went through as a black athlete, and I respect the various stances he took over the years to make his points. And, as rudimentary as the argument might be, there were plenty of black athletes who faced worse circumstances than Jim Brown, during the same era who never had these issues. One of my personal heroes is Bill Russell. He had the same moral rage that Jim Brown had, but managed to keep his hands to himself. If you can't form an opinion of a person from his actions, how can you at all?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

If you can't form an opinion of a person from his actions, how can you at all?

 

You can certainly form an opinion of a person based on his actions… but I think it has to be from the entirety of his actions and from a thorough understanding of the actions that have been taken against him.

 

As I've already said, his violence towards women is inexcusable and his behavior has been far from exemplary.

 

That said I think that his realm of experience is considerably different than many that judge him and my point is to give that some weight in judging the man.

 

The difficulty of enduring very significant amounts of overt prejudice and discrimination doesn't completely excuse him but is it not possible that it excuses some of his outspoken and angry ways?

 

I think the answer is yes but my sense is that people discount or dismiss that aspect altogether.

 

And again, there are people of greater virtue but all that tells us is that a certain individual might have greater character than Brown. But unless we've walked in his shoes, how can we judge his character with such certainty?

 

Is Bill Russell a better man than Jim Brown? Probably.

 

Are any of us better than Jim Brown? Well, it's easy to say yes but how would we really know?

[NoSaint]

 

 

You can certainly form an opinion of a person based on his actions… but I think it has to be from the entirety of his actions and from a thorough understanding of the actions that have been taken against him.

 

As I've already said, his violence towards women is inexcusable and his behavior has been far from exemplary.

 

That said I think that his realm of experience is considerably different than many that judge him and my point is to give that some weight in judging the man.

 

The difficulty of enduring very significant amounts of overt prejudice and discrimination doesn't completely excuse him but is it not possible that it excuses some of his outspoken and angry ways?

 

I think the answer is yes but my sense is that people discount or dismiss that aspect altogether.

 

And again, there are people of greater virtue but all that tells us is that a certain individual might have greater character than Brown. But unless we've walked in his shoes, how can we judge his character with such certainty?

 

Is Bill Russell a better man than Jim Brown? Probably.

 

Are any of us better than Jim Brown? Well, it's easy to say yes but how would we really know?

 

I appreciate your willingness to jump into the mix with well thought out opinions. I didnt live through the Jim brown era, and almost anything I know of him, or the conditions is by far second hand information.... But on a base level some of what your saying rubs a bit funny, and it might just be a difference of experiences we've been through, or the nature of deep conversation on a message board.... But it seems like your asking to put aside his most heinous offenses, then excuse a percentage of his daily shortcomings and even after that you are very hesitant to say what's left after a lot of diseased tissue is cut away is healthy.

 

Is race a factor for his development as a man as well as the evaluation of him (from both sides, really) - surely. It's not always pretty, but that's life..... But regardless of race, gender, creed, age or orientation.... It feels like quite a bit of excusing has to be done to get to a place where debating his character becomes much of a debate.

[Chandler#81]

I think the more we talk about this, the less I understand what you mean about "understanding". Many of the issues that people have with Jim Brown have nothing to do with the color of his skin, but the content of his character.

 

Ya know, I swear I've heard this line before.. Kinda catchy. And apt.

 

I agree with you and NoSaint. Your points are self evident, IMO.