San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Many folks expressed opinions that just about anyone can play guard going back to pre-draft discussions about selecting a guard in the first round. It was the "Pick a QB first. A guard can be found in mid to late rounds" crowd. People were saying "don't overpay Levitre" and "don't draft Warmack in the first round" (funny how Cooper was taken before Warmack, btw). They weren't saying not to add to the position. They were saying don't invest too heavily. Like Bandit and Nanker said, your recollection of the main thrust of the discussion is not quite accurate. Most of the people not upset by the guard situation were confident that the Bills would make a shrewd signing at the position. The most popular suggestion was that the Bills sign Brandon Moore.
Cheddar's Dad Posted June 6, 2013 Author Posted June 6, 2013 People were saying "don't overpay Levitre" and "don't draft Warmack in the first round" (funny how Cooper was taken before Warmack, btw). They weren't saying not to add to the position. They were saying don't invest too heavily. Like Bandit and Nanker said, your recollection of the main thrust of the discussion is not quite accurate. Most of the people not upset by the guard situation were confident that the Bills would make a shrewd signing at the position. The most popular suggestion was that the Bills sign Brandon Moore. But they were defining "don't invest to heavily" as a mid to late draft selection or free agent. (Funny how Cooper and Warmack were first round selections. Also funny that Tennessee, coached by an all pro O-lineman, acquired Levitre at a significant price, then selected Warmack in the first.) Since Buffalo did not select any guard in the draft, a shrewed signing almost certainly meant someone not nearly as good as Levitre. And that fact made your arguments using last year's statistics not relevant when talking about the possibilities for this year's line.
Dorkington Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I haven't been able to find the article. But I want to say it was Buffalo Rumblings, or one of the other analytics sites. Basically the line didn't rate well after 3 seconds, but because of the play style of our offense, we had very few sacks. Either way, I like the signing we just made, and hopefully our new coaches take into account our strengths and weaknesses with our line. Edit: I should clarify before someone accuses me of shitting on our team... I think our actual OL talent in pass protection is about average, but was made to look better (statistically) by the quick passing game. Our run blocking was pretty damned good at times, and made to look even better by CJ's amazing running. Edited June 6, 2013 by Dorkington
OCinBuffalo Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 This O line thing seems headed towards golf shot range of the famous "Fire Ryan Lindell" hysteria here in 2005. And yes, I'm being serious. It's not in throw a baseball range, or throw a dart range. But, I am starting to wonder if this is going to be another "we'd rather talk about firing the kicker, than Losman, because Losman sucking worse then Bledsoe is disaster, especially after so many of us demanded Bledsoe's head after last season". (Btw, uncertainty means "we don't know, we could have an All pro, or a bust". It doesn't mean we know our QBs suck/will be mediocre at best. "Uncertain" is Chris Brown speak for "we suck".) Ergo, it was 25+ pages of "Fire Lindell, all day, all the time"! And, IIRC it started in early June as well. (Why I say that is a long story that involves Philly, booze, lobster, Russians and cougars, that concludes with: It was June.) We we're right about that. Or, we weren't right about Bledsoe or Losman :bag:, and we knew it, so we took it out on Lindell. As I see this O line thread hit 7 pages, I remember the epic Lindell thread. However wrong posters were about the QBs, nobody has ever been as wrong here as the Fire Lindell people. That remains the standard for absolute wrongness on this board. We have other standards for extreme wrongness on the other boards. (An average of 3.5 of them). There are obvious, undeniable data points available that suggest our O line is not a concern, as there were for keeping Lindell in 2005. And, we have real uncertainty, properly defined, at QB, just like we had in 2005. Just a coincidence?
Cheddar's Dad Posted June 6, 2013 Author Posted June 6, 2013 This O line thing seems headed towards golf shot range of the famous "Fire Ryan Lindell" hysteria here in 2005. And yes, I'm being serious. It's not in throw a baseball range, or throw a dart range. But, I am starting to wonder if this is going to be another "we'd rather talk about firing the kicker, than Losman, because Losman sucking worse then Bledsoe is disaster, especially after so many of us demanded Bledsoe's head after last season". (Btw, uncertainty means "we don't know, we could have an All pro, or a bust". It doesn't mean we know our QBs suck/will be mediocre at best. "Uncertain" is Chris Brown speak for "we suck".) Ergo, it was 25+ pages of "Fire Lindell, all day, all the time"! And, IIRC it started in early June as well. (Why I say that is a long story that involves Philly, booze, lobster, Russians and cougars, that concludes with: It was June.) We we're right about that. Or, we weren't right about Bledsoe or Losman :bag:, and we knew it, so we took it out on Lindell. As I see this O line thread hit 7 pages, I remember the epic Lindell thread. However wrong posters were about the QBs, nobody has ever been as wrong here as the Fire Lindell people. That remains the standard for absolute wrongness on this board. We have other standards for extreme wrongness on the other boards. (An average of 3.5 of them). There are obvious, undeniable data points available that suggest our O line is not a concern, as there were for keeping Lindell in 2005. And, we have real uncertainty, properly defined, at QB, just like we had in 2005. Just a coincidence? Everything you wrote until the second last sentence makes little sense and adds nothing to this discussion. It's June. We're between Voluntary OTAs and Mandatory OTA. Nothing much is happening this week except, goodness, an O-line signing. So can't you let a few guys have a little fun talking football? You're welcome to join in and you can start by enumerating the undeniable data points that suggest the O-line is not a concern. I ask this knowing we're not likely to hear from you again on this subject due to you being too busy finding those undeniable data points. Might I suggest re-reading the comments above on data points that have been substantially debunked?
thebandit27 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Everything you wrote until the second last sentence makes little sense and adds nothing to this discussion. It's June. We're between Voluntary OTAs and Mandatory OTA. Nothing much is happening this week except, goodness, an O-line signing. So can't you let a few guys have a little fun talking football? You're welcome to join in and you can start by enumerating the undeniable data points that suggest the O-line is not a concern. I ask this knowing we're not likely to hear from you again on this subject due to you being too busy finding those undeniable data points. Might I suggest re-reading the comments above on data points that have been substantially debunked? I must've missed this...
thewildrabbit Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I'm feeling a little better now. At least we have a possible Levitre replacement that has 17 starts to his credit. I'm betting he starts. He says he thinks he's a better Center than Guard. I wonder if this staff might consider moving Woods to LG and starting Legursky at Center. I still think there may be a little fall off in performance for the O-line but Legursky, an average player or he wouldn't have been released by Pittsburg, is still better that Brown, Young, Scott and company. I don't feel better now. But then I suppose everything is in the hands of the new coaches and will they have the ability to coach up some of the players that are lacking. In the 2012 ranking of the offensive lines by pro football focus the buffalo Bills O line ranked 13th. Which is a pretty decent ranking. Although some of us (me for one) believe that ranking to be masked by the scheme / QB / RB, and it really wasn't nearly as good as it ranked. If you read the last line, even the folks at PFF think that there was some masking. Here is the article, with LG Andy Levite getting the best grade and oft injured Erik Pears getting the worst... "13. Buffalo Bills (4) PB – 5th, RB – 21st, PEN – 26th Stud: Although the star of the unit is Andy Levitre (+17.2), we can’t be the only ones that would like to see him do a little bit more in the run game. Dud: The only player on the line to get a significant negative grade, Erik Pears (-7.3) ended his season on injured reserve watching Chris Hairston make a pretty convincing claim to his starting spot. Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/ If you search that website a little you will find this page... https://www.profootb...ations-week-17/ "AFC East Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years." Which pretty much reinforces their statement about the O line getting more praise then they deserved in the run game. Then, If you search that site a bit more and look at the Pittsburgh Steelers ranking at #25, and read it. One player seems to stand out as the worst in a bad and oft injured O line. Allow me, for the too lazy to look it up. "25. Pittsburgh Steelers (25) PB – 24th, RB – 30th, PEN – 18th Stud: The best player on this line is Maurkice Pouncey (+5.4), though that speaks volumes about this line and less about him. He does his job, but unlike a lot of linemen in this league he doesn’t pop out on tape as someone who makes a massive difference. Dud: It’s nice to have a player who can play a number of positions, but the Steelers faithful must be hoping they don’t see an awful lot more of Doug Legursky (-10.5). Summary: Try as they might, the Steelers can’t field a line that can pass protect and open up lanes. That’s despite a significant recent investment of early-round draft picks. That said, this line was never about 2012, and hopefully a healthy unit next year will justify the hopeful optimism" Now you know why I don't feel better now Edited June 6, 2013 by FeartheLosing
Fan in San Diego Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 I don't feel better now. But then I suppose everything is in the hands of the new coaches and will they have the ability to coach up some of the players that are lacking. In the 2012 ranking of the offensive lines by pro football focus the buffalo Bills O line ranked 13th. Which is a pretty decent ranking. Although some of us (me for one) believe that ranking to be masked by the scheme / QB / RB, and it really wasn't nearly as good as it ranked. If you read the last line, even the folks at PFF think that there was some masking. Here is the article, with LG Andy Levite getting the best grade and oft injured Erik Pears getting the worst... "13. Buffalo Bills (4) PB – 5th, RB – 21st, PEN – 26th Stud: Although the star of the unit is Andy Levitre (+17.2), we can’t be the only ones that would like to see him do a little bit more in the run game. Dud: The only player on the line to get a significant negative grade, Erik Pears (-7.3) ended his season on injured reserve watching Chris Hairston make a pretty convincing claim to his starting spot. Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick." https://www.profootb...ensive-lines/3/ If you search that website a little you will find this page... https://www.profootb...ations-week-17/ "AFC East Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years." Which pretty much reinforces their statement about the O line getting more praise then they deserved in the run game. Then, If you search that site a bit more and look at the Pittsburgh Steelers ranking at #25, and read it. One player seems to stand out as the worst in a bad and oft injured O line. Allow me, for the too lazy to look it up. "25. Pittsburgh Steelers (25) PB – 24th, RB – 30th, PEN – 18th Stud: The best player on this line is Maurkice Pouncey (+5.4), though that speaks volumes about this line and less about him. He does his job, but unlike a lot of linemen in this league he doesn’t pop out on tape as someone who makes a massive difference. Dud: It’s nice to have a player who can play a number of positions, but the Steelers faithful must be hoping they don’t see an awful lot more of Doug Legursky (-10.5). Summary: Try as they might, the Steelers can’t field a line that can pass protect and open up lanes. That’s despite a significant recent investment of early-round draft picks. That said, this line was never about 2012, and hopefully a healthy unit next year will justify the hopeful optimism" Now you know why I don't feel better now Ben Rothlisberger holds onto the ball forever and runs around. Until he stops doing that he will always take a lot of sacks and make his OL look worse than it really is.
Turbosrrgood Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) If you recall his first two years in the league, you'll remember that Wood was a mediocre guard but an excellent center. When Hangartner got injured, Wood got his first career start at center and dominated the Browns outstanding nose tackle, Ahtyba Rubin. It was clear then that Wood's combination of strength and short-area quickness was a better fit at center where he's 2-3 feet closer to the opponent and the line of scrimmage than are the guards. Completely agree. Woods is a very good center (when healthy), however he did not wow me playing G...He was the top center in his class in college, and has been a top level center in the NFL...That's where he belongs. Granted Legursky has played mostly C as well, but I'd have to imagine he is being looked at as a possible starting G/backup C. With Woods injury problems, it has become clear that having a backup C with some experience is valuable. Also something to keep in mind...While I do like the Legursky signing (cheap, experienced, versatile interior olinesman), he has been far from stellar. By most accounts he was a below average center, playing there purely out of necessity. I do believe he could be an adequate replacement for Levitre, but I certainly wouldn't expect anything special from him. Certainly he hasn't done anything to make you think he would replace Wood at center. Edited June 6, 2013 by Turbosrrgood
K-9 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Profootballfocus MUST be taken with a BOLDER of salt. GO BILLS!!!
thewildrabbit Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Ben Rothlisberger holds onto the ball forever and runs around. Until he stops doing that he will always take a lot of sacks and make his OL look worse than it really is. I agree, and he can get away with it a lot because of his size / strength, and ability to elude the pressure. One more reason why statistics on paper aren't always 100% accurate in assessments. Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics. It still doesn't diminish the fact that there was a reason the Steelers let Legursky walk, a guy who graded as their worst linemen. Another interesting note is that he fits in a sort of different mold for a player that Buddy Nix usually brought in, as Buddy wanted behemoths. Cordy Glenn- 6'5" - 345 lbs. Zerbie Sanders- 6'6" - 320 lbs. Keith Williams - 6'5" - 330 lbs. Chris Scott - 6'4" - 319 lbs.David Snow- 6'4" - 304 lbs. Chris Hairston 6'6" - 332 lbs.Sam Young - 6'8" - 322 lbs.Erik Pears - 6'8" - 314 lbs.Colin Brown - 6'7" - 328 lbs.Chad Rinehart - 6'5" - 323 lbs. Kraig Urbik -6'5" - 329 lbs Greg Legursky at 6'1'' 315, seems almost puny.
Cheddar's Dad Posted June 6, 2013 Author Posted June 6, 2013 Then, If you search that site a bit more and look at the Pittsburgh Steelers ranking at #25, and read it. One player seems to stand out as the worst in a bad and oft injured O line. Allow me, for the too lazy to look it up. "25. Pittsburgh Steelers (25) PB – 24th, RB – 30th, PEN – 18th Stud: The best player on this line is Maurkice Pouncey (+5.4), though that speaks volumes about this line and less about him. He does his job, but unlike a lot of linemen in this league he doesn’t pop out on tape as someone who makes a massive difference. Dud: It’s nice to have a player who can play a number of positions, but the Steelers faithful must be hoping they don’t see an awful lot more of Doug Legursky (-10.5). Summary: Try as they might, the Steelers can’t field a line that can pass protect and open up lanes. That’s despite a significant recent investment of early-round draft picks. That said, this line was never about 2012, and hopefully a healthy unit next year will justify the hopeful optimism" Now you know why I don't feel better now Y-gads! You just ruined my day. (But I did, at least, have one day of relative calm.) Did you catch this San Jose Bills Fan? So much for your shrewd signing comment.
K-9 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 So now it's profootballfocus' job to inform us which signings are shrewd or not? Profootballfocus? Really? Unreal. GO BILLS!!!
OCinBuffalo Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Everything you wrote until the second last sentence makes little sense and adds nothing to this discussion. It's June. We're between Voluntary OTAs and Mandatory OTA. Nothing much is happening this week except, goodness, an O-line signing. So can't you let a few guys have a little fun talking football? You're welcome to join in and you can start by enumerating the undeniable data points that suggest the O-line is not a concern. I ask this knowing we're not likely to hear from you again on this subject due to you being too busy finding those undeniable data points. Might I suggest re-reading the comments above on data points that have been substantially debunked? That's because clearly, reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill. I am not holding out much hope for your skills at data analysis either. "Talking football" is precisely how the Fire Lindell assclownery started. How did you think it started...on a message board? Pantomime? Yes, we are in early June, which is typically between OTAs and Minicamp, and before training camp. Thank you. When can we expect your remarks on the wetness of water? Having nothing to talk about in June, is also one of the key contributing factors to how Fire Lindell got stated. Did you comprehend anything I wrote? Add to that: we had a similar QB situation that created a constant, unspoken anxiety, and we have the same conditions today. These are facts, and you don't get to avoid them, just because you don't like them. You clearly know nothing about me as a poster, on the football board. Data points? Like I said: nothing. I am still debating how I want to handle this. I can go the humor route, or be straight up. I debating whether hilarity, or tamping down silliness before it spreads, is the bigger priority here. Doing both requires more time than I have today. But the real question you have to ask yourself is: do you really want to end up being like the Fire Lindell guys? Right now, in June? Or is it better to calm down a little, and realize that it's more likely than not that 90? 95%? of this issue exists only in your mind, because it's better than thinking about "who's the starting QB against the Pats*", and because it's June, and WGR needs something to write about...in June.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 But they were defining "don't invest to heavily" as a mid to late draft selection or free agent. (Funny how Cooper and Warmack were first round selections. Also funny that Tennessee, coached by an all pro O-lineman, acquired Levitre at a significant price, then selected Warmack in the first.) Since Buffalo did not select any guard in the draft, a shrewed signing almost certainly meant someone not nearly as good as Levitre. And that fact made your arguments using last year's statistics not relevant when talking about the possibilities for this year's line. Tennessee was 6-10 last year. The fact of them over-investing in offensive linemen proves nothing. I'm not sure why you're bringing up statistics because I don't believe I've cited statistics in my discussions about O-line play. The line played well for the short periods of time they were healthy last year, which was not often. To my eyes (remember Wood was a guard his first two seasons?) the O-line was above average last year in spite of the many injuries and shuffling. Y-gads! You just ruined my day. (But I did, at least, have one day of relative calm.) Did you catch this San Jose Bills Fan? So much for your shrewd signing comment. Again I would trust my own eyes and the comments of people with a scouting background more than I would any advanced statistics service. Numerous times on this board (and others can corroborate) I've stated that advanced statistics are very problematic because many of the people who compile them don't really know what they're looking at. Also, the "All-22" camera video was not available to the general public until last year. While I respect the work that people like Barnwell have done with Football Outsiders and also the work of Pro Football Focus and Cold, Hard, Football Facts I don't really trust their statistics. Please try not to take our disagreements personally. I'm not worried about the O-line. Barring a rash of injuries, I think they'll be fine. Let's agree to disagree.
3rdand12 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Profootballfocus MUST be taken with a BOLDER of salt. GO BILLS!!! I saw what you did there But for the kiddies learning the capitols of each state.. It's Boulder . Marroone and friends had better know when to coach up and when to cut 'em . I am sure the soon to be up an running analytics dept knows better than me . Maybe the guy plays left guard for awhile until Woods is hurt again and we never resign Woods. Thats analytics at work. Snow or Brown might be a better guard but i get the funny feeling Lebowskie is captain of offense and can call plays very well. He described himself as cerebral . Big word for a lineman
thewildrabbit Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 Y-gads! You just ruined my day. (But I did, at least, have one day of relative calm.) Did you catch this San Jose Bills Fan? So much for your shrewd signing comment. Sorry if I ruined your day. Take it easy, as we have no control over anything that transpires on the field, unless we motivate them by cheering them on during a game. These are grown men making the decisions on this team, GM, HC, CEO / president and their respective jobs are riding on how well this team does over the next 2-3 years. They have 19 million in cap space available afaik and if they were that concerned about the line they would bring in players like G Brandon Moore who is believed to be seeking 3-4 mill per. But he is also 33 years old. Perhaps they are thinking Eric Winston at RT should Pears / Hairston falter or get injured, who knows. Plus, there are still a bunch of free agent linemen out there should the Bills lose confidence in any of their current players on the roster. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/5/2/4287840/nfl-free-agency-offense-tracker-ahmad-bradshaw-eric-winston Me personally, I wouldn't be happy with that O line until it resembled the current 49ers line, talent, ability and play. But that's me! On another note that might interest NewEra. They already have 2014 mock drafts out and SB Nation has the Bills selecting 4. Buffalo Bills: Taylor Lewan, OT, Michigan http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/4/29/4281528/2014-nfl-mock-draft-teddy-bridgewater-jadeveon-clowney-lead-the-way?utm_source=sbnation&utm_medium=nextclicks&utm_campaign=articlebottom
K-9 Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 I saw what you did there But for the kiddies learning the capitols of each state.. It's Boulder . Marroone and friends had better know when to coach up and when to cut 'em . I am sure the soon to be up an running analytics dept knows better than me . Maybe the guy plays left guard for awhile until Woods is hurt again and we never resign Woods. Thats analytics at work. Snow or Brown might be a better guard but i get the funny feeling Lebowskie is captain of offense and can call plays very well. He described himself as cerebral . Big word for a lineman Now I know you're full of crap. Everyone knows the capitol of Colorodo is Aspen. GO BILLS!!!
3rdnlng Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 Now I know you're full of crap. Everyone knows the capitol of Colorodo is Aspen. GO BILLS!!! That'a the winter capitol. Denver is the capitol the rest of the year. Boulder is the hashish capitol though.
3rdand12 Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 Now I know you're full of crap. Everyone knows the capitol of Colorodo is Aspen. GO BILLS!!! Wait. Since when ? And your statement is incorrect so i must suggest you are full of even more poo yourself my friend. If Aspen is actually the capitol ( and i doubt you have any idea where Colorado even is because of the hashish and all ) not everyone knows it. I am living proof. Once again analytics proves me correct . You cant use a random sample and then conclude that "everyone" , your words not mine sir, knows stuff . Maybe easy on the koolaid and keep the eyes on the road . Someone has to drive 3rdning. He is no condition obviously .
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