Coach Tuesday Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 What concerns me is the impact of Levitre's loss on Wood and Glenn. People tend to evaluate players in a vacuum but I don't think you can do that with offensive linemen - much of what makes them good (or bad) is who they line up next to. Not saying that alone justifies overpaying for Levitre, but I do worry that Glenn will hit a bit of a sophomore slump with a new LG next to him.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 ^^^^^ Legit concern. But as I stated in the first response, I'm not concerned about the play of the line or any of its members based on non-contact drills.
Sisyphean Bills Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 Gotta love the English language. Do you think CJ will resign or resign? Maybe it's more of a spelling problem than the language. http://www.merriam-w...tionary/re-sign http://www.merriam-w...m/dictionary/resign
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) I've gotta think an nfl head coach that played offensive line will not tolerate in any way shape or form a sub-par offensive line. Levitre and Rinehart will be missed, but Urbik, Wood, Glenn are a solid core, Hairston and Pears were adequate at LT and Zerbie Sanders is still a big TBD with potential. Between Brown and Young they should be able to get something working at guard. Not a prowbowl compliment yet, but I cannot imagine Marrone won't make it a priority to have solid Oline play. Edited June 3, 2013 by over 20 years of fanhood
thewildrabbit Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 Come on man...I've seen crusades, but this one that you're on against the Buffalo OL is brutal. The SF game was a complete blowout. Spiller had 6, count 'em, 6 touches in the first half. By the time he saw the ball in the 3rd quarter, the team was facing a 3 TD deficit. What, exactly, do you want them to do? Run the ball down the opponent's throat when your down 3 TDs. That's probably why they finished with a total of 16 called running plays for the game (out of a total of 46 offensive snaps). You like to use the Texans as an example, and then state that they "shut down" the running game by holding C.J. to over 6 yards per carry? Methinks the problem in that game was not enough running, not that they shut Buffalo's running game down. 12 rushes total between the top 2 backs on last year's team isn't going to get it done. The Rams game? Um, same thing. You can't expect much if you give Spiller 7 carries (which he--again--went for over 5 yards per carry). I'm starting to think you either (a) don't watch the games, or (b) don't have a very good memory. I mean, it was a 3 point game and Gailey called 16 running plays total (save for 1 end around to T.J. Graham). Way to get the ball in your best players' hands. And as I've pointed out to you before, your suspicion about Gailey and Fitz is incorrect. See post #30 and #35 in the following thread for all the gory details: http://forums.twobil...20#entry2802792 Ding ding ding. Well, now you certainly can't claim that you didn't answer any of your own questions. You are entitled to your opinion as I'm certainly entitled to mine. If anyone here is on a crusade... it is you for giving me grief every time I mention my concerns about the current O line. I firmly believe i have valid concerns and have given my reasons. I'm not the only one either as I didn't start this thread. I believe this is the statement that concerned the OP. "2) Glenn struggles - The Bills second-year starting left tackle had a couple of reps on Friday that were particularly unflattering. First he got beat by Jerry Hughes, who has made a habit of getting to the quarterback at least once every practice the media has been allowed to see. Then linebacker Marcus Dowtin gave Glenn an outside-in move, got the left tackle off-balance, and crept in for a sack. The important thing to remember, however, is that there are no pads and very little contact. However, Glenn's footwork has to be better." http://www.wgr550.com/pages/16486743.php?contentType=4&contentId=13155120 Now, just because I didn't refute the stats from pro football outsiders doesn't mean that they are correct in evaluating the O lines player abilities for 2012. Try and understand that because there wasn't significant drop off in the offensive passing or running game due to all the injuries on that line it shows me that its the scheme / QB rather then the players themselves. From pro football focus: 13. Buffalo Bills (4) PB – 5th, RB – 21st, PEN – 26th Stud: Although the star of the unit is Andy Levitre (+17.2), we can’t be the only ones that would like to see him do a little bit more in the run game. Dud: The only player on the line to get a significant negative grade, Erik Pears (-7.3) ended his season on injured reserve watching Chris Hairston make a pretty convincing claim to his starting spot. Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/ Well now, LG Andy levitre (the player who graded as the best) is now a Tennessee Titan isn't he? So the line not only lost a very good LG, it has lost the ONLY player who didn't miss playing time due to injuries the last four years. Glenn 13 games Levitre 16 games Wood 14 games Urbik 13 games Pears 7 games Its not about stats, its about WINS!
Heitz Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Maybe it's more of a spelling problem than the language. http://www.merriam-w...tionary/re-sign http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/resign Can I claim it was double entendre? As in "Ralph is so cheap that he'll ask CJ to resign, rather than sign him to a new deal"? For the record my entire post was sarcasm. Or apparently scarchasm... Edited June 4, 2013 by Heitz
chris heff Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 ^^^^^ Legit concern. But as I stated in the first response, I'm not concerned about the play of the line or any of its members based on non-contact drills. I agree, not contact drills for O line means all they can do is try and get in the way.
Cheddar's Dad Posted June 3, 2013 Author Posted June 3, 2013 You are entitled to your opinion as I'm certainly entitled to mine. If anyone here is on a crusade... it is you for giving me grief every time I mention my concerns about the current O line. I firmly believe i have valid concerns and have given my reasons. I'm not the only one either as I didn't start this thread. I believe this is the statement that concerned the OP. "2) Glenn struggles - The Bills second-year starting left tackle had a couple of reps on Friday that were particularly unflattering. First he got beat by Jerry Hughes, who has made a habit of getting to the quarterback at least once every practice the media has been allowed to see. Then linebacker Marcus Dowtin gave Glenn an outside-in move, got the left tackle off-balance, and crept in for a sack. The important thing to remember, however, is that there are no pads and very little contact. However, Glenn's footwork has to be better." http://www.wgr550.co...tentId=13155120 Now, just because I didn't refute the stats from pro football outsiders doesn't mean that they are correct in evaluating the O lines player abilities for 2012. Try and understand that because there wasn't significant drop off in the offensive passing or running game due to all the injuries on that line it shows me that its the scheme / QB rather then the players themselves. From pro football focus: 13. Buffalo Bills (4) PB – 5th, RB – 21st, PEN – 26th Stud: Although the star of the unit is Andy Levitre (+17.2), we can’t be the only ones that would like to see him do a little bit more in the run game. Dud: The only player on the line to get a significant negative grade, Erik Pears (-7.3) ended his season on injured reserve watching Chris Hairston make a pretty convincing claim to his starting spot. Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick. https://www.profootb...ensive-lines/3/ Well now, LG Andy levitre (the player who graded as the best) is now a Tennessee Titan isn't he? So the line not only lost a very good LG, it has lost the ONLY player who didn't miss playing time due to injuries the last four years. Glenn 13 games Levitre 16 games Wood 14 games Urbik 13 games Pears 7 games Its not about stats, its about WINS! This is outstanding. You've expressed my concerns about the O-line better than I ever could. I know it's early in upcoming season preparations but if the OTA performances of T.J. Graham, Kiko Alonzo, and others give you reason for optimism, the touch sacks given up by the O-line should give you reason for concern. The team has not replaced Levitre. Those named by Marrone to replace him were reserve lineman in past years. I know Marrone was an NFL lineman but if you don't have the players you can't manufacture them from career reservists even with the best coaching.
Nanker Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 I think the O Line has concerns about the size of their bunks in training camp, and the quality and quantity of the chow.
WIDE LEFT Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 Glenn faced some of the best pass rushers in the world last year as a rookie and graded out just fine. My guess is that he isn't an offseason type of guy (seems like we lost a lot of those when Rusty Jones got canned--which I still consider one of our front office's biggest blunders) He has power and quick feet plus a year under his belt. I wouldn't worry about OTA performances. Some athletes just have to play themselves back into shape. Either way he had better hurry because from all indications this is going to be a very fast paced up-tempo offense that might not allow much time in between plays for the big fella's to catch their breath. Fitzy, for all his faults, was still a relatively easy guy to protect because he and Chan had a system for quick throws and minimal pocket time. This may have made Cordy look better than he really was, and playing with Levitre doesn't hurt you either. Both of those things are gone this year, so we need a big sophomore year from big 77..... I wish it were true that Glenn "graded out just fine" but that is simply not true. Whose grades are you referring to? Despite having a QB who got rid of the ball in a hurry, Glenn was actually rated as one of the worst left tackles last year.
thewildrabbit Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 This is outstanding. You've expressed my concerns about the O-line better than I ever could. I know it's early in upcoming season preparations but if the OTA performances of T.J. Graham, Kiko Alonzo, and others give you reason for optimism, the touch sacks given up by the O-line should give you reason for concern. The team has not replaced Levitre. Those named by Marrone to replace him were reserve lineman in past years. I know Marrone was an NFL lineman but if you don't have the players you can't manufacture them from career reservists even with the best coaching. Thanks My concerns are mostly about LT Glenn (his footwork) being able to handle the speed guys as I think he would be a much better RT. The loss of LG Levitre who graded as the best player on that line is also a concern, and who is replacing him. The overall lack of the ability for every player to stay healthy for 16 games is very disconcerting as continuity is a very important part of the line functioning as a solid unit. My reasoning for concern is when i look at the current O line of the 49ers (graded as the #1 O line) with envious eyes, and want the Buffalo Bills line to be as good someday. I'm old school and believe in building the line first, and then finding that franchise QB. The 49ers don't seem to suffer any O line injuries as every last one played a full 16 games last year. In 2011 only the RG missed 3 games. The 49ers: #1 Summary: Phenomenal. A near flawless collection of linemen. Most teams would kill for any one of the guys the 49ers put out, yet they have five of them. The introduction of Alex Boone provided a huge boost, with Anthony Davis upping his game with better play next to them. They’re a young unit by offensive line standards and look set to dominate for a long time. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/4/ All we Bills fans can do is hope this new HC knows his stuff and coaches up the current players to a higher level. Then the Bills figure out why they have so many injuries on the O line and teams like the 49ers have so few.
thebandit27 Posted June 3, 2013 Posted June 3, 2013 You are entitled to your opinion as I'm certainly entitled to mine. If anyone here is on a crusade... it is you for giving me grief every time I mention my concerns about the current O line. I firmly believe i have valid concerns and have given my reasons. I'm not the only one either as I didn't start this thread. I believe this is the statement that concerned the OP. "2) Glenn struggles - The Bills second-year starting left tackle had a couple of reps on Friday that were particularly unflattering. First he got beat by Jerry Hughes, who has made a habit of getting to the quarterback at least once every practice the media has been allowed to see. Then linebacker Marcus Dowtin gave Glenn an outside-in move, got the left tackle off-balance, and crept in for a sack. The important thing to remember, however, is that there are no pads and very little contact. However, Glenn's footwork has to be better." http://www.wgr550.com/pages/16486743.php?contentType=4&contentId=13155120 Now, just because I didn't refute the stats from pro football outsiders doesn't mean that they are correct in evaluating the O lines player abilities for 2012. Try and understand that because there wasn't significant drop off in the offensive passing or running game due to all the injuries on that line it shows me that its the scheme / QB rather then the players themselves. From pro football focus: 13. Buffalo Bills (4) PB – 5th, RB – 21st, PEN – 26th Stud: Although the star of the unit is Andy Levitre (+17.2), we can’t be the only ones that would like to see him do a little bit more in the run game. Dud: The only player on the line to get a significant negative grade, Erik Pears (-7.3) ended his season on injured reserve watching Chris Hairston make a pretty convincing claim to his starting spot. Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/ Well now, LG Andy levitre (the player who graded as the best) is now a Tennessee Titan isn't he? So the line not only lost a very good LG, it has lost the ONLY player who didn't miss playing time due to injuries the last four years. Glenn 13 games Levitre 16 games Wood 14 games Urbik 13 games Pears 7 games Its not about stats, its about WINS! You can use the same "not about stats" argument against any position group on the team. It just so happens that you're using it against the unit that was the most statistically sound. Look man, we can run this circle round and round all offseason long. The fact of the matter is that there are far greater areas of concern to the team than the OL. Like unproven spots such as QB, WR, LB, CB, SS. When the OL becomes the team's biggest problem, they'll be in great shape.
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 You can use the same "not about stats" argument against any position group on the team. It just so happens that you're using it against the unit that was the most statistically sound. Look man, we can run this circle round and round all offseason long. The fact of the matter is that there are far greater areas of concern to the team than the OL. Like unproven spots such as QB, WR, LB, CB, SS. When the OL becomes the team's biggest problem, they'll be in great shape. Its not just about stats, its about the INJURIES! Its also about who replaces the player that graded as the best linemen on the line and is now on a different team. Its about can that line protect the first round pick well enough so that he can make those deep throws to the new WR's. The Bills also graded decently last season at running the ball because of CJ Spiller, "Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/32-observations-week-17/ My opinion isn't going to change because you don't agree with it. Its going to change when I see the Buffalo Bills make a 3rd and short running by moving the LoS enough to get that first down!
eball Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 I find it hard to believe anyone is expressing grave concern over "touch sacks" during non-physical, anything-but-real-football practice. I understand and appreciate questions about who will replace Levitre, but this is some funny stojan.
thebandit27 Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Its not just about stats, its about the INJURIES! Its also about who replaces the player that graded as the best linemen on the line and is now on a different team. Its about can that line protect the first round pick well enough so that he can make those deep throws to the new WR's. The Bills also graded decently last season at running the ball because of CJ Spiller, "Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years." https://www.profootb...ations-week-17/ My opinion isn't going to change because you don't agree with it. Its going to change when I see the Buffalo Bills make a 3rd and short running by moving the LoS enough to get that first down! I'm confused...I thought you said it was about wins. Now you seem to be saying it's about injuries...and also about short-yardage situations (which some might call a stat). I think, what you're trying to say, is that it's about PERFORMANCE, which I agree with. Your opinion is your opinion, yes, the issue I take here is that you seem to be basing it on faulty/shifting/in-the-very-least-unclear-or-inconsistent logic. You are absolutely correct that the team needs to get better in short-yardage blocking situations, but to say that it's a major concern relative to the rest of the team is throwing the baby out with the bath water...it's as though you feel that short-yardage running situations are the only gauge of OL play. I mean, be honest with yourself: the OL is very, very good at opening up holes. Not that you care for stats, but Football Outsiders had them 8th in the league in Adjusted Line Yards: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol And the injuries thing makes little sense to me, as there didn't seem to be much of a difference when Pears was injured. Now, if you want to pick on the line for dropping off a bit when they were down to their 3rd string center and 3rd string RT, well, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a team that wouldn't see a drop off. Regardless, as I've said repeatedly, I can't find a way to focus on the minor deficiencies of the OL when there are so many other unproven areas.
eball Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 How many NFL teams, honestly, are able to pick up a consistent 1-2 yards rushing in situations best characterized as "we're going to run, you know we're going to run, now stop us?" I'll put that number at one or two, tops (MIN and HOU come to mind), but I think the RB is primarily the reason. I am open to arguments otherwise, so convince me. Suffice it to say, I believe that claiming your OL is weak because you can't just "line 'em up" and get 2 yards is unrealistic.
thewildrabbit Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 I'm confused...I thought you said it was about wins. Now you seem to be saying it's about injuries...and also about short-yardage situations (which some might call a stat). I think, what you're trying to say, is that it's about PERFORMANCE, which I agree with. Your opinion is your opinion, yes, the issue I take here is that you seem to be basing it on faulty/shifting/in-the-very-least-unclear-or-inconsistent logic. You are absolutely correct that the team needs to get better in short-yardage blocking situations, but to say that it's a major concern relative to the rest of the team is throwing the baby out with the bath water...it's as though you feel that short-yardage running situations are the only gauge of OL play. I mean, be honest with yourself: the OL is very, very good at opening up holes. Not that you care for stats, but Football Outsiders had them 8th in the league in Adjusted Line Yards: http://www.footballo...rs.com/stats/ol And the injuries thing makes little sense to me, as there didn't seem to be much of a difference when Pears was injured. Now, if you want to pick on the line for dropping off a bit when they were down to their 3rd string center and 3rd string RT, well, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a team that wouldn't see a drop off. Regardless, as I've said repeatedly, I can't find a way to focus on the minor deficiencies of the OL when there are so many other unproven areas. Thanks, I knew I was absolutely correct, and try not to be so confused.
Chandler#81 Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 I've gotta think an nfl head coach that played offensive line will not tolerate in any way shape or form a sub-par offensive line. Levitre and Rinehart will be missed, but Urbik, Wood, Glenn are a solid core, Hairston and Pears were adequate at LT and Zerbie Sanders is still a big TBD with potential. Between Brown and Young they should be able to get something working at guard. Not a prowbowl compliment yet, but I cannot imagine Marrone won't make it a priority to have solid Oline play. Ha! Yeah, wouldn't surprise me if at final cut-down, the Bills are the only team with a 52 man roster. That way, if Coach doesn't like the way the OL is playing, he can don the pads at halftime! He jumped in a couple times in mini-camp..
thebandit27 Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) Thanks, I knew I was absolutely correct, and try not to be so confused. In true form, you continue to see only what you choose to see and ignore the rest. Guess that's why we always see things differently...I'm willing to look at all the information, not just one small piece that conveniently fits my crusade. Good work proving my point Edited June 4, 2013 by thebandit27
yungmack Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 It's the first week of June, the pads are still in a warehouse somewhere, not a single tackle or skull-rattling block has been made, so am I concerned about the O-line? Ah, no.
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