O line concerns?

[BillsVet]

There are 160 starting offensive linemen in the NFL. How many were acquired with "high resources?" What is the definition of "high resources" anyway? Top three rounds of the draft? If that's the criteria, then 80% of the Bills' starters were acquired in that manner (Glenn/Wood/Urbik/Hairston).

 

Was the line a strong point "in any way shape or form" last season? If it was, then Levitre and the backup services of Rheinholdsgebotenstein are the only subtractions.

 

How many backup linemen across the league are not "UDFA's and street free agent types?"

 

I don't know the answer to these questions -- just posing them as a counterpoint to your definitive statements.

 

Take the last three (EDIT: 1st-2nd) rounds of the NFL draft. In 2013, 10 OL were taken in the first 2 rounds. In 2012, 12 were selected in that same timeframe. 13 taken in 2011. By my count, that's 35 dudes out of 192 selections, and they're not all left tackles. Lot more interior OL at the top of draftboards.

 

The league trend is away from 330+ pounders and more to nimble guys who can pass block to support the more pass happy offenses. Teams just aren't taking maulers anymore. In theory, that's 35 new starters from 3 drafts, or about 1/4th of the opening day starters.

Edited June 4, 2013 by BillsVet

[dave mcbride]

Thanks Dave. For whatever reason I can't get that link to load on my computer; what was the overall average in the NFL?

That's from the summary. If you want the details, you need to subscribe. I don't, as it so happens ...

[thewildrabbit]

THIS.

 

In 2012 the O-line was arguably the best unit on the entire team. QB play was inadequate. Stevie was very good but other WR play was awful, Spiller was excellent but Jackson and Choice were awful, so skill positions as a whole were decent but needed improvement. D-line was inadequate, LBs were awful, DBs were half-decent.

 

Quibble with the above if you want but the point is it was a far higher priority for the Bills this offseason to 1a) find a damn quarterback already and 1b) do what was needed to field a competent defense, and 2) improve the WR position. Addressing any problems the OL has was correctly put off until next year.

 

Hopefully Marrone can work some magic and keep the OL playing decently. If they're not good enough improvements will be made next year. Without a QB or a DEFENSE we had little choice but to do it this way.

I disagree...obviously. I think the RB's were the best unit on the team by far, and Spiller was the reason.

 

I guess you missed this,

"Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/

 

and this,

"Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/32-observations-week-17/

 

 

I do agree with the last sentence bolded.

[bigK14094]

I guess I am still wondering why, with the Bills not moving on Levetre, that Reinhart was not resinged. Reinhart start many games over two years, and did workman like job. Yet, little if any comment on this board about that loss. Another front office failing in my view. He only got a one year contract from San Diego, so he did not go to a top of the line contract. Why not keep him?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I disagree...obviously. I think the RB's were the best unit on the team by far, and Spiller was the reason.

 

I guess you missed this,

"Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/

 

and this,

"Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/32-observations-week-17/

 

 

I do agree with the last sentence bolded.

So the offensive line was the second best unit on the team, and my actual point still stands.

 

When 2012 season ended we were looking at an offensive line that was solid but unspectacular, a hopeless quarterback situation, and maybe the single worst defense in football. We also needed to add weapons to the passing game. Even while I agree with you there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about the OL, it's easy to see why OL was far from our top priority this offseason.

[eball]

I guess I am still wondering why, with the Bills not moving on Levetre, that Reinhart was not resinged. Reinhart start many games over two years, and did workman like job. Yet, little if any comment on this board about that loss. Another front office failing in my view. He only got a one year contract from San Diego, so he did not go to a top of the line contract. Why not keep him?

 

So in other words, you are wondering why the Bills didn't re-sign a journeyman G who was in such demand he was only able to muster a one-year deal on the free agent market?

 

Yes, they certainly seem to have missed the boat on keeping this highly sought after prize.

[Cheddar's Dad]

So in other words, you are wondering why the Bills didn't re-sign a journeyman G who was in such demand he was only able to muster a one-year deal on the free agent market?

 

Yes, they certainly seem to have missed the boat on keeping this highly sought after prize.

 

The point is this; Levitre and Reinhart are gone and no replacements have been brought in. Add to that the difficulties that Glenn seems to be having with his pass blocking this year and you may, with an open mind, begin to understand why I started this discussion.

 

As to your comment about Reinhart being given only a one year deal; how many free agents have gained more than one year this year? One year contracts seem to be the norm and should, in no way, indicate the value or worth of a player. There are free agent O-linemen still sitting out there waiting for the phone to ring. Reinhart signed a contract before the others. So, was he "sought after"? I'd say yes.

[biglukes]

 

 

The point is this; Levitre and Reinhart are gone and no replacements have been brought in. Add to that the difficulties that Glenn seems to be having with his pass blocking this year and you may, with an open mind, begin to understand why I started this discussion.

 

As to your comment about Reinhart being given only a one year deal; how many free agents have gained more than one year this year? One year contracts seem to be the norm and should, in no way, indicate the value or worth of a player. There are free agent O-linemen still sitting out there waiting for the phone to ring. Reinhart signed a contract before the others. So, was he "sought after"? I'd say yes.

Why did a replacement HAVE to be brought in from outside the organization? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that Colin Brown or someone already on the team can fill the spot just fine? They like the group they have and could still add to it with one of the two guys who visited today.

 

Reinhardt is not still out there on the market because he's decent and cheap.

Edited June 4, 2013 by biglukes

[thewildrabbit]

So the offensive line was the second best unit on the team, and my actual point still stands.

 

When 2012 season ended we were looking at an offensive line that was solid but unspectacular, a hopeless quarterback situation, and maybe the single worst defense in football. We also needed to add weapons to the passing game. Even while I agree with you there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about the OL, it's easy to see why OL was far from our top priority this offseason.

While I concede that the O line play was somewhat solid, but unspectacular. Still, way to many injuries for me, Eric Wood can't keep ending the season on IR. A hopeless QB situation because the HC made a back up QB the focal point of his offense instead of his best weapons in his RB's.

 

It may be easy for you, but Its not easy for me to see why the OL was far from a top priority, as my main concern is in building a top O line first thing. I know I think differently from the majority of the posters here. I was hoping the Bills would replace Levite in the draft since they let him walk.

 

We will just have to wait until the season starts to see if the line can give the QB the time needed to make those deep throws to the new speedy WR's, and I'm hoping they do. Heck of a lot easier to pass block for 2.4 seconds then it is for 5 seconds on deep drop backs.

[BillsVet]

Why did a replacement HAVE to be brought in from outside the organization? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that Colin Brown or someone already on the team can fill the spot just fine? They like the group they have and could still add to it with one of the two guys who visited today.

 

Reinhardt is not still out there on the market because he's decent and cheap.

 

Because Colin Brown has 12 career GP and 2 starts since being drafted in 2009. He's on his 4th team in 5 seasons, including his time in the UFL.

 

If the Bills were confident in guys like Brown, they wouldn't be kicking the tires on two guys like those brought in today.

[3rdand12]

So in other words, you are wondering why the Bills didn't re-sign a journeyman G who was in such demand he was only able to muster a one-year deal on the free agent market?

 

Yes, they certainly seem to have missed the boat on keeping this highly sought after prize.

I think big K is saying something i am attuned to. Did we need to let Rinehart go ? That move mystified me no end.

And irks me even more when i hear the cap space just gained 7 million this week. Bills left themselves thin in my opinion.

Chad was decent player .

One of the sage gentlemen here mentioned I paraphrase to my own end of course ..that an Oline is the sum of it's parts including depth and how coaches compensate for weaknesses and strengths through good coaching. Gailey and coach D did an nice job masking weaknesses lots of em. Lot's and lots of em. regardless of Chan's failings on offense they sucked. The whole offense was sooo coached around that Gailey and company had no idea which way was up by the 9th game of last season. What with no defense to speak of .

 

I would now like to mention that I have serious concerns about the offensive line and it's depth .

My ONLY hope is that Marrone can get it sorted out by getting the "right " players in place. Not the best or highly valued.

But fellows that have consistency , balance and continuity over statistical blue ribbons .

I see a rough year ahead , but with Tons of excitement . We have no shortage of offensive weapons all of a sudden .

Go bills

[26CornerBlitz]

In a related matter:

@JamesWalkerESPN: Some #Dolphins fans are asking about the o-line in OTAs. The answer is it's hard to gauge in shorts and little contact.

 

[thewildrabbit]

It may surprise you to find out that you are wrong.

 

This is one group of stats that even you can't discount (I think, although I may be giving you too much credit; time--and your much-anticipated response--will tell)...check out the "Power Success" of the bolded teams:

 

http://www.footballo...rs.com/stats/ol

 

Defined as: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks.

 

Houston - 18th

Minnesota - 30th

SF - 12th

Bal - 14th

Seattle - 4th (hey, you got one right!)

 

But hey, the "good teams that make those 2-3 yards" and win games like Carolina (1st in Power Success) and New Orleans (3rd) must LOVE fans like you!

 

No bones about it: you're flat-out wrong; the hard numbers don't lie.

I delayed this because I don't have all day to debate you over and over.

 

 

 

That stat for power success also includes QB's, in case you missed it, a big reason why Carolina is #1. QB Cam Newton had more rushing yards then their best RB. The Saints are a passing team, and happen to be 25th in rushing last season. Could it be that their opponents expected a pass instead of a run as to why they did so well on 3rd and short? All you prove when you keep throwing out stat after stat is that they don't always tell the entire story.

 

Top rushing teams in the NFL last season #1 Washington, in the playoffs. #2 Minnesota, in the playoffs. #3 Seattle, in the playoffs. #4 San Francisco, in the playoffs. Three of those 4 teams also had running QB's that enhanced their rushing stats

 

The Buffalo Bills were the 6th best rushing team in the NFL last season and yet couldn't control the game or the clock when they needed to by rushing or passing. Which In my view is a big reason why they went 6-10. BTW, They were also ranked 26th in power success.

 

Those teams mentioned, the Texans, Ravens, 49ers, Vikings, Seahawks are all strong running teams, all made the playoffs and all can control the LoS and clock when they need. Despite their supposed lack of "power success"

Edited June 4, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[thewildrabbit]

I think big K is saying something i am attuned to. Did we need to let Rinehart go ? That move mystified me no end.

And irks me even more when i hear the cap space just gained 7 million this week. Bills left themselves thin in my opinion.

Chad was decent player .

One of the sage gentlemen here mentioned I paraphrase to my own end of course ..that an Oline is the sum of it's parts including depth and how coaches compensate for weaknesses and strengths through good coaching. Gailey and coach D did an nice job masking weaknesses lots of em. Lot's and lots of em. regardless of Chan's failings on offense they sucked. The whole offense was sooo coached around that Gailey and company had no idea which way was up by the 9th game of last season. What with no defense to speak of .

 

I would now like to mention that I have serious concerns about the offensive line and it's depth .

My ONLY hope is that Marrone can get it sorted out by getting the "right " players in place. Not the best or highly valued.

But fellows that have consistency , balance and continuity over statistical blue ribbons .

I see a rough year ahead , but with Tons of excitement . We have no shortage of offensive weapons all of a sudden .

Go bills

Hey, another fellow I agree with.

 

Regarding Chad Rinehart, the Bills did the same sorta thing when they cut center/guard Geoff Hangartner before the 2011 season started. He went back to Carolina and started all 16 games for them at RG. The Bills were riddled with line injuries all 2011 and really really could have used him when Eric Wood went down in week 9.

 

All we can do is hope this move doesn't come back to bite them.

[3rdand12]

Hey, another fellow I agree with.

 

Regarding Chad Rinehart, the Bills did the same sorta thing when they cut center/guard Geoff Hangartner before the 2011 season started. He went back to Carolina and started all 16 games for them at RG. The Bills were riddled with line injuries all 2011 and really really could have used him when Eric Wood went down in week 9.

 

All we can do is hope this move doesn't come back to bite them.

good point recalling Geoff . I expected to keep him around .

Well it' Coach Marrones baby now lets see what Whaley and company find for him

[thebandit27]

I delayed this because I don't have all day to debate you over and over.

 

 

 

That stat for power success also includes QB's, in case you missed it, a big reason why Carolina is #1. QB Cam Newton had more rushing yards then their best RB. The Saints are a passing team, and happen to be 25th in rushing last season. Could it be that their opponents expected a pass instead of a run as to why they did so well on 3rd and short? All you prove when you keep throwing out stat after stat is that they don't always tell the entire story.

 

Top rushing teams in the NFL last season #1 Washington, in the playoffs. #2 Minnesota, in the playoffs. #3 Seattle, in the playoffs. #4 San Francisco, in the playoffs. Three of those 4 teams also had running QB's that enhanced their rushing stats

 

The Buffalo Bills were the 6th best rushing team in the NFL last season and yet couldn't control the game or the clock when they needed to by rushing or passing. Which In my view is a big reason why they went 6-10. BTW, They were also ranked 26th in power success.

 

Those teams mentioned, the Texans, Ravens, 49ers, Vikings, Seahawks are all strong running teams, all made the playoffs and all can control the LoS and clock when they need. Despite their supposed lack of "power success"

 

So after claiming that the Bills OL isn't good solely upon their lack of being able to pound the call in Power situations like Houston, Minnesota, etc, and being proven wrong, you're now going to shift your claim that the stat--which ONLY APPLIES TO 3RD AND 4TH DOWNS OF 1-2YDS AND GOAL LINE PLAYS OF 1-2 YARDS--is skewed by the QB's rushing totals?

 

This really is a joke, isn't it? You're putting me on...you must be.

 

The Bills inability to control the clock with their running game was why they went 6-10?

 

Not the complete lack of an NFL QB?

 

Not the fact that they had 1 NFL caliber WR?

 

Not the horrendous defense?

 

Not the brutal play calling?

 

The OL?

 

Ok man, I'll leave you to your delusion.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

We will just have to wait until the season starts to see if the line can give the QB the time needed to make those deep throws to the new speedy WR's, and I'm hoping they do. Heck of a lot easier to pass block for 2.4 seconds then it is for 5 seconds on deep drop backs.

 

More importantly we'll have to wait and see what we have at quarterback. We were going nowhere with a Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kevin Kolb, time to throw or not.

 

The downfield passing game is only going to be one element of our offense. At Syracuse, they used mostly a quick passing WCO offense. You might've seen the quotes from Hackett awhile back about how he wants to run the ball a ton. Additionally we have a quarterback who can make plays with his feet.

 

If Marrone and Hackett can hack it, they'll be able to use the quick passing game, running game and the QB's athleticism to slow the pass rush in order to attack downfield.

[NewEra]

Our interior Oline depth absolutely sucks. If wood goes out again, it'll be a floodgate. As many have said, the main reason our Oline was ranked so high was because of 2 reasons. Gaileys offense that was designed to get rid of the ball quickly allowed our pass protection ranking to be overinflated. Running the ball, Cj spiller did some nasty things out there. If we were returning the same guys as last season, I'd be ok with that. But we lost our best lineman as well as our backup interior lineman. They haven't been filled. Our line is worse than last years. Debate all you want, that Oline wasn't the biggest "priority" this year. It will be one of the biggest property's next season. I promise you that.

[eball]

In a related matter:

@JamesWalkerESPN: Some #Dolphins fans are asking about the o-line in OTAs. The answer is it's hard to gauge in shorts and little contact.

 

 

This may be the only time I give credence to Walker, but he's absolutely right. Judging OL play in this scenario is ridiculous -- at least for uneducated fans (of which I am admittedly one).

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

It will be one of the biggest property's next season. I promise you that.

I completely agree, and it should be.

 

If there's a quarterback I want in the draft I'm not passing on him for anything. Nobody wins anything in this league without strong QB play.

 

Then if I had the worst defense in football, that would be the next thing to think about.

 

I am concerned about the offensive line. Though I'm not at all surprised they didn't take an OL the first three rounds, I did not expect the Bills to go the entire draft without selecting one. I was surprised they let Chas Rhinegold walk and even more surprised at how they didn't seem to pursue Brandon Moore very much.

 

None of that changes the reality that our QB situation and our defense were far worse off than our offensive line. It also doesn't change the reality that we have a head coach who has done some excellent work in the past with NFL offensive lines. If we have to pick a spot to wait for next year, it makes sense to me to pick a spot that we're confident will be well-coached and that actually performed fairly well last year.

 

It is regrettable that Levitre is gone and no brand name replacement has been brought in. We're taking a gamble that someone will step up and Marrone can get these guys where they need to be. With the amount of holes we had, we simply had to take that gamble somewhere. We're doing the same thing at CB, and maybe not by coincidence, that's the other position that we can be pretty confident will be well-coached.

Edited June 5, 2013 by J-Gun Boone