Blurring the line between CB and S.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I don't understand the title of the thread. did I miss something? Are we going to be playing our safeties at corner?

[Ronin]

Here's a nice article, which outlines the current status of the Bills' CB situation. The link: http://www.buffaloru...g-bets-to-start.

 

I have real concerns about our depth at CB, which is why I bring this issue up. For a defense that plans to be very aggressive, to blitz often, and to cover man to man, it better have some reliable CBs or things aren't going to work out too well.

 

I would categorize our current CB crop as follows:

 

1. Top Notch - Gilmore.

I expect him to just get better and better and for Pettine to match him up with the opposing team's best WR on a regular basis.

 

2. Average to Above Average - McKelvin/Brooks.

If used wisely (i.e. where their skills are best suited) both guys could perform well. McKelvin will likely play outside, while Brooks will likely cover the slot. Both are fast/agile enough to get to the QB on the blitz in Pettine's aggressive scheme.

 

3. Average - Rogers/Butler/Robey.

Rogers is not big enough to play outside and neither is Robey. Both may be well suited for covering the slot however because of their quickness.

Butler is a player that the Bills really like. He will play outside because he has good size. Butler and Robey are both newcomers to keep and eye on because they both could be pleasant surprises.

 

4. Hopefuls - Ellis/Kearney/Heath/Edwards/Rolle.

The Bills' new regime obviously likes the long, lanky, athletic type (i.e. the CB/S hybrid) and these guys fit that roll pretty well. Maybe 1-2 of them will surprise.

 

Note: A. Williams and D. Williams will primarily be safeties in Pettine's scheme, but may be asked to cover various types of receivers at times. Thus, they at least add to the depth of the CB group.

 

Two questions for you.

1. How do you rate our CB group??

2. is there a strong need to add at least one veteran CB after June 1st??

 

Another article by homer Galiford.

 

Gilmore's far from top notch right now. He's got lots of work to do before he gets there. Bills fans should just be hoping that he develops better than Williams has.

 

McKelvin, average to above average? I know Galiford has, but he writes like he's never seen McKelvin play CB. McKelvin's an above average returner, some seasons, but as a CB he sucks. He's low end, purely a depth caliber CB.

[ny33]

Another article by homer Galiford.

 

Gilmore's far from top notch right now. He's got lots of work to do before he gets there. Bills fans should just be hoping that he develops better than Williams has.

 

McKelvin, average to above average? I know Galiford has, but he writes like he's never seen McKelvin play CB. McKelvin's an above average returner, some seasons, but as a CB he sucks. He's low end, purely a depth caliber CB.

 

Those were the O.P.'s rankings, not Galliford's.

[Ronin]

I don't understand the title of the thread. did I miss something? Are we going to be playing our safeties at corner?

 

LOL

 

Who knows, all we're being told is how to expect all kinds of amazing things. What they don't tell you is that those things work(ed) in college but probably don't have nearly the same chances for success in the NFL.

 

My first question for anyone that thinks that the D is going to be good is who's playing LB this year? All I see is a roster full of depth caliber LBs. I don't see a single bona fide starting LB on the roster presently. Arguably Bradham is the best, but he hasn't come close to proving that he can start. For a real laugh look at which LBs on the team have starting MLB experience, at any level.

 

I think that 6 wins is generous. If this team can simply sort out its offense, hope that Spiller can play at a high level when getting 20+ touches/game, find a solid #2 WR and get good line play sans Levitre, and finish the season w/ an offense ranked above average, they should consider it a good season despite the notion that the D figures to get run over this year.

 

Many, including me, still have my doubts about Spiller being able to play that much at a high level. He sucked for two seasons, started off last year w/ two enormous games that skewed his stats the entire year, games against horrid teams, and the coaching staff said that he tired quickly. Despite the fact that the coaching staff last year sucked, they must have gotten that notion from somewhere. Either way, the difference between Spiller's '10 and '11 seasons and last year's are pronounced. He could easily be another McFadden or Chris Johnson type that puts up one big season before falling back to earth. His level of play last season is not sustainable over the long haul however, and if it were to be, then he'd be among the top few RBs of all time. The problem w/ that theory is that he sucked in his first two seasons. If he really were that good he wouldn't have been so bad and bordering on bust for two years.

 

Those were the O.P.'s rankings, not Galliford's.

 

Thanks!

 

Either way, massively inflated was the point. McKelvin blows as a CB.

 

Gilmore is, right now, about the 20th-35th best CB in the league.

 

I'd put McKelvin in the 50th-65th range.

 

Brooks is likely in the 100th-115th range.

 

Rogers is, maybe, in the 130th-145th range.

 

Still think you're way high on McKelvin. I'd rank him below all starting CBs making him no higher than 65th on a good day. Figure what, each team carries 5/6 CBs, making it at least 160 in the league; I'd rank McKelvin, again, as a CB, not as a returner, no better than 100th, again, on a good day. I have no idea why anyone thinks he's any better than a nickel CB on a good day, 3rd on the DC otherwise. He's had ample opps to prove himself and has failed miserably.

 

Also, not sure how you base Brooks as being better than Rogers, he's hardly played. IMO Rogers is the better CB, at least based on last year's performances. As with all things Bills tho, it's debatable.

Edited May 29, 2013 by TaskersGhost

[ChanOverChin]

The new pressure scheme should greatly help the CB play. I think Gilmore will prove to be better than many think now that he's no longer a rookie. Pettine's scheme will put a lot more pressure on the opposing QB than what we're used to seeing, which means that the opposing QB won't have the time to dissect our defense like we saw last year. That will make the CBs much more efficient.

 

Gilmore we know can hold his own against top flight WRs. The jury is still out on McKelvin and Brooks, but both are very fast and athletic and should be much more effective if they don't have to provide coverage for as long as they have had to in the past.

 

Wannstedt's defense was a joke. It required our CBs and Safeties to provide coverage for as long as 5 seconds or more on a regular basis. That's not going to be the case with Pettine's scheme. In fact, in Pettine's scheme you're going to see guys like McKelvin use his speed to rush the passer.

 

My projections above are based upon how are CBs are likely to fair in Pettine's scheme, not in Wannstedt's scheme. I think Gilmore, McKelvin, and Brooks are our top three CBs and I believe that all three will fair well in Pettine's pressure defense. After that, it's anyone's guess. That's why I think the Bills really need to add a vet CB after June 1st.

[Ronin]

If Pettine can generate a pass rush, unlike the ineptitude of Wanny it will greatly improve how well this group plays.

 

That's going to be more difficult than some may think given the lack of a solid linebacking unit.

 

Team's won't have to throw on us if we design the D completely around blitzing, which seems to be what Marrone/Pettine are indicating.

 

If teams can hit the dumpoff/short passes OTM and run the ball, if they get past our top-shelf (price wise anyway) DL then they shouldn't have any trouble shredding whomever the starting LBs are and half a secondary for the most part.

 

Having been a Bills fan for over 30 years I cannot recall a weaker LBing unit. Not by a long shot.

[ny33]

LOL

 

Who knows, all we're being told is how to expect all kinds of amazing things. What they don't tell you is that those things work(ed) in college but probably don't have nearly the same chances for success in the NFL.

 

My first question for anyone that thinks that the D is going to be good is who's playing LB this year? All I see is a roster full of depth caliber LBs. I don't see a single bona fide starting LB on the roster presently. Arguably Bradham is the best, but he hasn't come close to proving that he can start. For a real laugh look at which LBs on the team have starting MLB experience, at any level.

 

I think that 6 wins is generous. If this team can simply sort out its offense, hope that Spiller can play at a high level when getting 20+ touches/game, find a solid #2 WR and get good line play sans Levitre, and finish the season w/ an offense ranked above average, they should consider it a good season despite the notion that the D figures to get run over this year.

 

Many, including me, still have my doubts about Spiller being able to play that much at a high level. He sucked for two seasons, started off last year w/ two enormous games that skewed his stats the entire year, games against horrid teams, and the coaching staff said that he tired quickly. Despite the fact that the coaching staff last year sucked, they must have gotten that notion from somewhere. Either way, the difference between Spiller's '10 and '11 seasons and last year's are pronounced. He could easily be another McFadden or Chris Johnson type that puts up one big season before falling back to earth. His level of play last season is not sustainable over the long haul however, and if it were to be, then he'd be among the top few RBs of all time. The problem w/ that theory is that he sucked in his first two seasons. If he really were that good he wouldn't have been so bad and bordering on bust for two years.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Either way, massively inflated was the point. McKelvin blows as a CB.

 

 

 

Still think you're way high on McKelvin. I'd rank him below all starting CBs making him no higher than 65th on a good day. Figure what, each team carries 5/6 CBs, making it at least 160 in the league; I'd rank McKelvin, again, as a CB, not as a returner, no better than 100th, again, on a good day. I have no idea why anyone thinks he's any better than a nickel CB on a good day, 3rd on the DC otherwise. He's had ample opps to prove himself and has failed miserably.

 

Also, not sure how you base Brooks as being better than Rogers, he's hardly played. IMO Rogers is the better CB, at least based on last year's performances. As with all things Bills tho, it's debatable.

 

Rogers has played very poorly most of the time. Brooks has barely played, yes, but he's looked decent compared to Rogers/Williams.

 

You're right about McKelvin; he's not one of the top sixty CBs in the league. I don't think, though, that he is worse than most teams' third CBs. McKelvin isn't very good, but very few teams have solid (Gilmore-level) second CBs. The Packers, Bengals, Bears, and Seahawks have two or more great CBs, but that's pretty much it.

Edited May 29, 2013 by ny33

[Ronin]

The new pressure scheme should greatly help the CB play. I think Gilmore will prove to be better than many think now that he's no longer a rookie. Pettine's scheme will put a lot more pressure on the opposing QB than what we're used to seeing, which means that the opposing QB won't have the time to dissect our defense like we saw last year. That will make the CBs much more efficient.

 

Gilmore we know can hold his own against top flight WRs. The jury is still out on McKelvin and Brooks, but both are very fast and athletic and should be much more effective if they don't have to provide coverage for as long as they have had to in the past.

 

Wannstedt's defense was a joke. It required our CBs and Safeties to provide coverage for as long as 5 seconds or more on a regular basis. That's not going to be the case with Pettine's scheme. In fact, in Pettine's scheme you're going to see guys like McKelvin use his speed to rush the passer.

 

My projections above are based upon how are CBs are likely to fair in Pettine's scheme, not in Wannstedt's scheme. I think Gilmore, McKelvin, and Brooks are our top three CBs and I believe that all three will fair well in Pettine's pressure defense. After that, it's anyone's guess. That's why I think the Bills really need to add a vet CB after June 1st.

 

Here are my thoughts on those things;

 

Gilmore's future depends upon this season. Right now he proved that he can start in the NFL, but he still has lots of work to go in order to avoid being someone of say Drayton Florence's caliber, somewhat adequate but little more. It's hardly a given that he's going to take that step, but there's good hope.

 

As to applying pressure, it can hardly get worse w/ this unit. They massively underachieved last year. On paper this DL rivals the best ever for the Bills. So that should happen. Here's the problem tho, the linebackers are arguably the weakest unit that the Bills have ever had. I mean seriously, who's playing MLB/ILB this year? There's not one that's proven outside or in. That will contribute to hindering the pass rush, but more importantly it will render the pass rush useless if teams pick up our blitzes and pass rush and employ a short passing game or effective UTM running game and if they get to the second level, who's going to be stopping them?

 

Sure, it's all fun to think that five LBs are all going to step up to all-pro level this season, but that's not going to happen. A better expectation should be if two players can prove that they can even start at the NFL level in the LB unit.

 

The jury's not out on McKelvin, he's been in the league for what, five, six seasons already. He blows as a CB. I'm surprised he's still even on the team. They should have released him and kept Florence.

 

As to Wanny's D being a joke, indeed it was, but consider this, perhaps Mario's highly overrated. I pointed out his numbers in Houston and how they were massively overrated when we signed him. Anderson is overrated too, big time. So maybe that's the reason why the pass pressure wasn't there. Now Mario's got this distraction of perjury and his ex distracting him.

 

Even so, the notion that the pass rush will determine how well the D plays is only half true. The other half of the equation is whether or not opposing DCs figure it out, which most should, and then go to short passes and runs. So now you have receivers and RBs past the DL, who's going to stop them from averaging 6 ypp? There isn't anyone.

[thebandit27]

LOL

 

Who knows, all we're being told is how to expect all kinds of amazing things. What they don't tell you is that those things work(ed) in college but probably don't have nearly the same chances for success in the NFL.

 

My first question for anyone that thinks that the D is going to be good is who's playing LB this year? All I see is a roster full of depth caliber LBs. I don't see a single bona fide starting LB on the roster presently. Arguably Bradham is the best, but he hasn't come close to proving that he can start. For a real laugh look at which LBs on the team have starting MLB experience, at any level.

 

I think that 6 wins is generous. If this team can simply sort out its offense, hope that Spiller can play at a high level when getting 20+ touches/game, find a solid #2 WR and get good line play sans Levitre, and finish the season w/ an offense ranked above average, they should consider it a good season despite the notion that the D figures to get run over this year.

 

Many, including me, still have my doubts about Spiller being able to play that much at a high level. He sucked for two seasons, started off last year w/ two enormous games that skewed his stats the entire year, games against horrid teams, and the coaching staff said that he tired quickly. Despite the fact that the coaching staff last year sucked, they must have gotten that notion from somewhere. Either way, the difference between Spiller's '10 and '11 seasons and last year's are pronounced. He could easily be another McFadden or Chris Johnson type that puts up one big season before falling back to earth. His level of play last season is not sustainable over the long haul however, and if it were to be, then he'd be among the top few RBs of all time. The problem w/ that theory is that he sucked in his first two seasons. If he really were that good he wouldn't have been so bad and bordering on bust for two years.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Either way, massively inflated was the point. McKelvin blows as a CB.

 

 

 

Still think you're way high on McKelvin. I'd rank him below all starting CBs making him no higher than 65th on a good day. Figure what, each team carries 5/6 CBs, making it at least 160 in the league; I'd rank McKelvin, again, as a CB, not as a returner, no better than 100th, again, on a good day. I have no idea why anyone thinks he's any better than a nickel CB on a good day, 3rd on the DC otherwise. He's had ample opps to prove himself and has failed miserably.

 

Also, not sure how you base Brooks as being better than Rogers, he's hardly played. IMO Rogers is the better CB, at least based on last year's performances. As with all things Bills tho, it's debatable.

 

I'm not sure what you're basing the bolded statement on...you do know that Pettine has been coaching in the NFL for 11 season, the last 3 as the NYJ defensive coordinator, right?

 

As for who has experience playing MLB, that's kind of immaterial, given the general consensus that Buffalo will be playing mostly a 3-4 hybrid. As for the LB unit, I'd like to think that Bradham will improve from last year, and they did draft Kiko Alonso in the 2nd round, who played both ILB and MLB in Oregon's hybrid defense. The OLB spot is a bit murky, since outside of Manny Lawson it's a bit hard to tell who would be playing there if/when the team employs 4 LBs. Mark Anderson is certainly a candidate, as he played that spot in New England, as is Jerry Hughes, who had his best season as a 3-4 OLB last year.

 

The rest of your post is almost impossible to address, as anyone that believes that Spiller "sucked for two seasons" clearly wasn't watching the team. He barely got a chance as a rookie, and in his 6 starts in his second season he was excellent. To say that his first 2 games skewed his stats in a 1,200-yard rushing campaign that saw him lead the league in yards-per-carry is patently absurd, and bordering on unabashed stupidity.

 

Here are my thoughts on those things;

 

Gilmore's future depends upon this season. Right now he proved that he can start in the NFL, but he still has lots of work to go in order to avoid being someone of say Drayton Florence's caliber, somewhat adequate but little more. It's hardly a given that he's going to take that step, but there's good hope.

 

As to applying pressure, it can hardly get worse w/ this unit. They massively underachieved last year. On paper this DL rivals the best ever for the Bills. So that should happen. Here's the problem tho, the linebackers are arguably the weakest unit that the Bills have ever had. I mean seriously, who's playing MLB/ILB this year? There's not one that's proven outside or in. That will contribute to hindering the pass rush, but more importantly it will render the pass rush useless if teams pick up our blitzes and pass rush and employ a short passing game or effective UTM running game and if they get to the second level, who's going to be stopping them?

 

Sure, it's all fun to think that five LBs are all going to step up to all-pro level this season, but that's not going to happen. A better expectation should be if two players can prove that they can even start at the NFL level in the LB unit.

 

The jury's not out on McKelvin, he's been in the league for what, five, six seasons already. He blows as a CB. I'm surprised he's still even on the team. They should have released him and kept Florence.

 

As to Wanny's D being a joke, indeed it was, but consider this, perhaps Mario's highly overrated. I pointed out his numbers in Houston and how they were massively overrated when we signed him. Anderson is overrated too, big time. So maybe that's the reason why the pass pressure wasn't there. Now Mario's got this distraction of perjury and his ex distracting him.

 

Even so, the notion that the pass rush will determine how well the D plays is only half true. The other half of the equation is whether or not opposing DCs figure it out, which most should, and then go to short passes and runs. So now you have receivers and RBs past the DL, who's going to stop them from averaging 6 ypp? There isn't anyone.

 

If you think that Gilmore has a ways to go before he reaches Drayton Florence's level of play, then I'm not sure there's any reason to address you further...that's a joke.

[Ronin]

Rogers has played very poorly most of the time. Brooks has barely played, yes, but he's looked decent compared to Rogers/Williams.

 

You're right about McKelvin; he's not one of the top sixty CBs in the league. I don't think, though, that he is worse than most teams' third CBs. McKelvin isn't very good, but very few teams have solid (Gilmore-level) second CBs. The Packers, Bengals, Bears, and Seahawks have two or more great CBs, but that's pretty much it.

 

Agreed, but most teams have far better than McKelvin, Brooks, Rogers, or Williams as their 2nd CBs too.

 

I think we can agree that the team really only has Gilmore as a solid NFL starting caliber CB. So in essence one CB spot will be weak again this season. Same with Safety. Byrd, if he signs, is above average based on two of three seasons. But Searcy is still largely mystery meat at the position.

 

The glue that holds the D together, linebackers, is incredibly weak. That's a problem that no one seems to want to discuss, even the coaches. IMO it's going to kill them and the D this year. Bottom quartile for sure. You need more than three players to pressure the QB. Mario, Williams, and Dareus can't do it all.

 

I don't think that there's one other player currently on the team that logged a sack last season.

Edited May 29, 2013 by TaskersGhost

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I don't understand the title of the thread. did I miss something? Are we going to be playing our safeties at corner?

 

Apparently Duke Williams and Aaron Williams have been playing both positions.

 

Another article by homer Galiford.

 

McKelvin, average to above average? I know Galiford has, but he writes like he's never seen McKelvin play CB. McKelvin's an above average returner, some seasons, but as a CB he sucks. He's low end, purely a depth caliber CB.

 

You're wrong again. McKelvin returned 7 punts for TDs in college and as a pro he has 39 returns for 3 TDs and a 16.3 yard average.

 

McKelvin is a superior punt returner by any measure.

 

If you tried being objective, your harangues might have a bit more credibility.

[Ronin]

I'm not sure what you're basing the bolded statement on...you do know that Pettine has been coaching in the NFL for 11 season, the last 3 as the NYJ defensive coordinator, right?

 

As for who has experience playing MLB, that's kind of immaterial, given the general consensus that Buffalo will be playing mostly a 3-4 hybrid. .

 

The rest of your post is almost impossible to address, as anyone that believes that Spiller "sucked for two seasons" clearly wasn't watching the team. He barely got a chance as a rookie, and in his 6 starts in his second season he was excellent. To say that his first 2 games skewed his stats in a 1,200-yard rushing campaign that saw him lead the league in yards-per-carry is patently absurd, and bordering on unabashed stupidity.

 

If you think that Gilmore has a ways to go before he reaches Drayton Florence's level of play, then I'm not sure there's any reason to address you further...that's a joke.

 

To those points in order:

 

Were you aware that Pettine's Jets have been ranked on or about where the Bills have been ranked in generating sacks/pass pressure on his watch? So what, it's all going to be different because he's on Buffalo now?

 

I don't think it's immaterial at all. I guess you could think that if you don't think that talent is required and that a simple scheme can overcome talent. I thought that as Bills fans we've gotten beyond that sales pitch. I guess not.

 

He didn't start as a rookie for a reason and that reason was hardly all because of Fred Jackson. In his second season it too was lackluster and there was absolutely no reason besides lack of performance and the coaches stating that he tired quickly as to why he didn't play more.

 

As to Gilmore, I didn't say that. Read it again. I said in order to avoid being little more than Florence was he'll have to step up this season. If he regresses, not uncommon in the NFL, or does not improve, he'll essentially be what Florence was. He matched Florence in his rookie season, which is good, but he's hardly top shelf at the moment, he'll have to prove that this season. I'm not making a prediction either way, but I'm also not making an assumption that it's a given based on a wealth of NFL history to back it up.

 

Same for Spiller. What, he'd be the first RB to have praise heaped upon him coming into the league, underachieving, then posting one killer season before leveling out to average or thereabouts? Hardly. I cited McFadden, who was notably better than Spiller rushing in college, and Chris Johnson at a somewhat higher level. In fact, McFadden's third season was about as close to a carbon copy of Spiller's last season as it gets. Also, Spiller only scored 3 rushing TDs in the last 14 games last season.

[thebandit27]

Agreed, but most teams have far better than McKelvin, Brooks, Rogers, or Williams as their 2nd CBs too.

 

I think we can agree that the team really only has Gilmore as a solid NFL starting caliber CB. So in essence one CB spot will be weak again this season. Same with Safety. Byrd, if he signs, is above average based on two of three seasons. But Searcy is still largely mystery meat at the position.

 

The glue that holds the D together, linebackers, is incredibly weak. That's a problem that no one seems to want to discuss, even the coaches. IMO it's going to kill them and the D this year. Bottom quartile for sure. You need more than three players to pressure the QB. Mario, Williams, and Dareus can't do it all.

 

I don't think that there's one other player currently on the team that logged a sack last season.

 

Um, then you're either (a) not watching games, or (b) not thinking very hard.

 

Carrington

K. Williams

M. Anderson

M. Lawson

J. Hughes

A. Branch

 

And that's without using Google...at least pretend to follow the team if you're going to bash them mercilessly

[Ronin]

Apparently Duke Williams and Aaron Williams have been playing both positions.

 

 

 

You're wrong again. McKelvin returned 7 punts for TDs in college and as a pro he has 39 returns for 3 TDs and a 16.3 yard average.

 

McKelvin is a superior punt returner by any measure.

 

If you tried being objective, your harangues might have a bit more credibility.

 

Sorry, but if you'd bother to look at McKelvin's PRs and KRs you'd find that he was above average, easily, most of the time in the NFL. He had two off seasons as a KR, and his PRs in the NFL have been limited otherwise.

 

Get your facts straight. If you don't think that a career 16.3 PR avg. in the NFL is above average, well, not sure you know much of anything.

 

If you think that Gilmore has a ways to go before he reaches Drayton Florence's level of play, then I'm not sure there's any reason to address you further...that's a joke.

 

Boy, reading comprehension sure isn't a strong suit here.

 

Read again. He's reached it. What I actually said was that if he ever wants to be more than Florence he's going to have to take a step up this season.

 

The amount of assuming going on here that it's a given is astonishing. Bills fans should have learned better by now. Williams was better as a rookie than he was as a soph as merely one local example.

Edited May 29, 2013 by TaskersGhost

[hondo in seattle]

I think you've got every one of those guys one level higher than they belong.

 

Gilmore, for certain, has top-notch skills, but isn't there yet as a player. I have little doubt he'll get there, but he's not there yet.

 

McKelvin is above average at his best, but he's seldom at his best. He's average. Brooks doesn't belong in the same class as Leodis.

 

Rogers/Brooks are below average, and nobody's seen enough of Butler to make a determination. Robey's a rookie UDFA; putting him anywhere other than "hopeful" is misguided IMO.

 

All others belong in the hopeful category.

 

JMO

 

I'm shocked more people haven't spoken to this.

 

these guys have been left out to dry for years with no real blitz schemes.

 

They should be better off not having to cover for 7-10 seconds a down.

 

I agree with both these comments and would add this to the later: it will be interesting to see how good our secondary will look under Pettine. While none of these guys have received a lot of accolades in their NFL careers thus far, there is a lot of athleticism in our back end. Not only do we hope Pettine can generate a pass rush, we also hope he can put players in places to make plays.

[thebandit27]

 

Were you aware that Pettine's Jets have been ranked on or about where the Bills have been ranked in generating sacks/pass pressure on his watch? So what, it's all going to be different because he's on Buffalo now?

 

In 2012, Buffalo applied more pressure than the Jets; I'd guess that would be due to higher talent level, but nevertheless, it's true

In 2011, the Jets ranked 17th in sacks, while Buffalo ranked 27th; that's not "at or near"

In 2010, the Jets ranked 8th in sacks, while Buffalo ranked 27th; that's not "at or near"

 

So aside from being completely wrong, it's not a salient point even if it were accurate. There's more to defense than sacks, and Pettine's defenses ranked 8th, 5th, and 3rd overall in the NFL in 2012, 2011, and 2010, respectively.

 

 

I don't think it's immaterial at all. I guess you could think that if you don't think that talent is required and that a simple scheme can overcome talent. I thought that as Bills fans we've gotten beyond that sales pitch. I guess not.

 

You're complaining about the lack of an experienced MLB in a scheme that doesn't use one, and you can't see why that's immaterial? It's not a sales pitch, it's a fact. And I suppose you plan to dismiss Alonso as not being talented? I think NFL talent evaluators would disagree there.

 

 

He didn't start as a rookie for a reason and that reason was hardly all because of Fred Jackson. In his second season it too was lackluster and there was absolutely no reason besides lack of performance and the coaches stating that he tired quickly as to why he didn't play more.

 

Actually, he did start as a rookie when Lynch was suspended and Jackson was hurt. He didn't play great, but he also immediately lost carries to Jackson as soon as he was healthy. If you want to call his rookie season a wash, fine, I won't argue there.

 

You are, however, completely wrong (again) about his second season. He averaged 5.2 YPC on slightly over 100 touches with 6 TDs; that's not "lackluster" by any rational person's definition. Those efforts included a 5-game stretch at the end of the season where he was finally given an opportunity to start. In that stretch, he averaged 5.8 YPC and scored 3 rushing TDs, while catching 21 passes for 178 yards and 2 TDs; that's not "lackluster" by any rational person's definition.

 

As to Gilmore, I didn't say that. Read it again. I said in order to avoid being little more than Florence was he'll have to step up this season. If he regresses, not uncommon in the NFL, or does not improve, he'll essentially be what Florence was. He matched Florence in his rookie season, which is good, but he's hardly top shelf at the moment, he'll have to prove that this season. I'm not making a prediction either way, but I'm also not making an assumption that it's a given based on a wealth of NFL history to back it up.

 

Ah, I did mis-read that. I can't say that I agree that he matched Florence, since Gilmore didn't allow a TD after week 5 and allowed an average of 3 receptions per game after that time. I don't ever remember Drayton Florence playing that well.

 

Same for Spiller. What, he'd be the first RB to have praise heaped upon him coming into the league, underachieving, then posting one killer season before leveling out to average or thereabouts? Hardly. I cited McFadden, who was notably better than Spiller rushing in college, and Chris Johnson at a somewhat higher level. In fact, McFadden's third season was about as close to a carbon copy of Spiller's last season as it gets. Also, Spiller only scored 3 rushing TDs in the last 14 games last season.

 

No, he wouldn't be the first, but as I said before, you're completely and utterly wrong about him "sucking" his first two seasons. And I refuse to accept your rushing TD stats as justification that the inflated his stats in weeks 1 and 2. The guy had almost 1,250 yards rushing and over 450 yards receiving for the season, and you want to denigrate that because he didn't score on the ground as much in the second half of the season? Sorry man, but that's just silly. Look at the numbers; he was wildly productive all season long.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/13203/cj-spiller

 

Given the relative absence of facts associated with your arguments, I think we're done here.

 

Sorry, but if you'd bother to look at McKelvin's PRs and KRs you'd find that he was above average, easily, most of the time in the NFL. He had two off seasons as a KR, and his PRs in the NFL have been limited otherwise.

 

Get your facts straight. If you don't think that a career 16.3 PR avg. in the NFL is above average, well, not sure you know much of anything.

 

 

 

Boy, reading comprehension sure isn't a strong suit here.

 

Read again. He's reached it. What I actually said was that if he ever wants to be more than Florence he's going to have to take a step up this season.

 

The amount of assuming going on here that it's a given is astonishing. Bills fans should have learned better by now. Williams was better as a rookie than he was as a soph as merely one local example.

 

From the guy that's unequivocally wrong about nearly everything he stated in the quoted post above?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

If you don't think that a career 16.3 PR avg. in the NFL is above average, well, not sure you know much of anything.

 

Yeah that's exactly what I said:

 

McKelvin is a superior punt returner by any measure.

[NewEra]

 

 

LOL

 

Who knows, all we're being told is how to expect all kinds of amazing things. What they don't tell you is that those things work(ed) in college but probably don't have nearly the same chances for success in the NFL.

 

My first question for anyone that thinks that the D is going to be good is who's playing LB this year? All I see is a roster full of depth caliber LBs. I don't see a single bona fide starting LB on the roster presently. Arguably Bradham is the best, but he hasn't come close to proving that he can start. For a real laugh look at which LBs on the team have starting MLB experience, at any level.

 

I think that 6 wins is generous. If this team can simply sort out its offense, hope that Spiller can play at a high level when getting 20+ touches/game, find a solid #2 WR and get good line play sans Levitre, and finish the season w/ an offense ranked above average, they should consider it a good season despite the notion that the D figures to get run over this year.

 

Many, including me, still have my doubts about Spiller being able to play that much at a high level. He sucked for two seasons, started off last year w/ two enormous games that skewed his stats the entire year, games against horrid teams, and the coaching staff said that he tired quickly. Despite the fact that the coaching staff last year sucked, they must have gotten that notion from somewhere. Either way, the difference between Spiller's '10 and '11 seasons and last year's are pronounced. He could easily be another McFadden or Chris Johnson type that puts up one big season before falling back to earth. His level of play last season is not sustainable over the long haul however, and if it were to be, then he'd be among the top few RBs of all time. The problem w/ that theory is that he sucked in his first two seasons. If he really were that good he wouldn't have been so bad and bordering on bust for two years.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Either way, massively inflated was the point. McKelvin blows as a CB.

 

 

 

Still think you're way high on McKelvin. I'd rank him below all starting CBs making him no higher than 65th on a good day. Figure what, each team carries 5/6 CBs, making it at least 160 in the league; I'd rank McKelvin, again, as a CB, not as a returner, no better than 100th, again, on a good day. I have no idea why anyone thinks he's any better than a nickel CB on a good day, 3rd on the DC otherwise. He's had ample opps to prove himself and has failed miserably.

 

Also, not sure how you base Brooks as being better than Rogers, he's hardly played. IMO Rogers is the better CB, at least based on last year's performances. As with all things Bills tho, it's debatable.

 

You rank mckelvin below all the other starting CBs, yet you don't even know who all the starting CBs even are. That's something I'm sure of.

 

 

 

Sorry, but if you'd bother to look at McKelvin's PRs and KRs you'd find that he was above average, easily, most of the time in the NFL. He had two off seasons as a KR, and his PRs in the NFL have been limited otherwise.

 

Get your facts straight. If you don't think that a career 16.3 PR avg. in the NFL is above average, well, not sure you know much of anything.

 

 

 

Boy, reading comprehension sure isn't a strong suit here.

 

Read again. He's reached it. What I actually said was that if he ever wants to be more than Florence he's going to have to take a step up this season.

 

The amount of assuming going on here that it's a given is astonishing. Bills fans should have learned better by now. Williams was better as a rookie than he was as a soph as merely one local example.

 

Last year mckelvin led the nfl in punt return average....by a large margin. He was top 5 in KR. That makes him above average. Waaaaay above average. If you don't think he's a special return man, I don't know what your watching. You're "that guy".

[Mr. WEO]

You rank mckelvin below all the other starting CBs, yet you don't even know who all the starting CBs even are. That's something I'm sure of.

 

 

 

Last year mckelvin led the nfl in punt return average....by a large margin. He was top 5 in KR. That makes him above average. Waaaaay above average. If you don't think he's a special return man, I don't know what your watching. You're "that guy".

 

Well, to be fair, you are leaving a lot of info out of your argument against Tasker.

 

As a KR, Leodis had just only just over 1 return per game. As such, he doesn't qualify to rank with other KR's (at least 20 returns to be ranked--23 guys returned more than him). Also, as a punt returner, Leodis only attempted 23--again, just over 1 a game. He also had 14 fair catches. So, McK may be a dangerous return man, but he really doesn't field many balls in the air. Great way to keep your average up. Remember when Roscoe was " the best punt returner in history"? He didn't return many either.