GG Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 It's not an abstract unit, though. If it were, you couldn't barter with it, as you couldn't reliably assign it a value, save it, have any reliable mechanisms for exchange or clearing, etc. It's the manner of the agreements that make "currency" a concrete, usable thing. Define currency. A Pokemon card is currency, but a fairly abstract one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Define currency. A Pokemon card is currency, but a fairly abstract one. Isn't that kind-of the point of your whole discussion with Tasker? Defining currency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Isn't that kind-of the point of your whole discussion with Tasker? Defining currency? A bit more nuanced than that. Bitcoin is a currency, just not a grown up one, and may never get there because the fanboys won't let it. Which was the point of my post this morning. Death threats against the journalist who unearthed the founder? Real grown up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Hmm. I suppose the one thing that hasn't been acconted for: The BetaMax Effect. Meaning: things in technology don't always proceed in the logical, linear order that we predict they will. BetaMax made all the logical sense, but, VHS still ended up being deployed. It's possible Bitcoin is something, that is not fullly understood yet, and therefore, may proceed unpredictably. I realize that Bitcoin is not merely a technology, and that the "rules" of currency are prehistoric. However, I see IT as the place #2(right behind drug dealing and gun running) where Bitcoin would have immediate adoption. Example #1 for me is: paying contract programmers. I can easily see a time when contract programmers will ONLY take Bitcoin. Some of them will only take PayPal right now. They pay off nearly all of their expenses in Pay Pal/"business credit card" funded by PayPal, often including rent/meals/utilities, treated as "expenses", and, change states every 11 months, before they bring in their "income". Good luck regulating that. Technically they are never a resident of anywhere, other than Texas or Florida, where they keep a PO Box, after having lived there for 6 months to establish residency. So, they can throw basically the cost of their entire life over the line, and that's before IRA stuff. If this is what they do with PayPal, and Bitcoin improves on that by letting them stay in one place? They will move to Bitcoin. I don't see how any regulator can realistically track Bitcoin well enough to actually enforce regulations. And, as Bitcoin is a technology, and therefore unlike any other currency, it can be changed, over and over, thus always winning the typical cat/mouse game with regulators, and making them pointless. Edited March 7, 2014 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Your method of payment is irrelevant. You still have to provide the information on the 1099 as to how much and to whom you paid. Your contractors are taking a bet that they won't be audited. If they are, they'll have to explain why you said you paid them $x, and they reported $y. You, as an employer have an incentive to keep detailed payment records because you need to deduct expenses. Bitcoin may make it easier for you to send that payment, but nothing else on your end changes. Bitcoin is a good payment mechanism though for people who want to keep the entire transaction under the rug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The ones that are gaga over bitcoin probably had mint sets of football cards n the 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Your method of payment is irrelevant. You still have to provide the information on the 1099 as to how much and to whom you paid. Your contractors are taking a bet that they won't be audited. If they are, they'll have to explain why you said you paid them $x, and they reported $y. You, as an employer have an incentive to keep detailed payment records because you need to deduct expenses. Bitcoin may make it easier for you to send that payment, but nothing else on your end changes. Bitcoin is a good payment mechanism though for people who want to keep the entire transaction under the rug. Again, you still don't see it. Bitcoin works outside of this space. And it does because it can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Again, you still don't see it. Bitcoin works outside of this space. And it does because it can. ok, then. Explain how bitcoin works outside the space of OC's world of getting paid by the customer and paying his contractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) Again, you still don't see it. Bitcoin works outside of this space. And it does because it can. You prove his point. It works outside the space and in so doing, breaks the law if its users don't report the transactions. I was involved in a litigation over an alternate currency that was backed by gold. There might be legit transactions in any of them but all of them, so far, are criminal havens. It's definitely a problem in the libertarian dream behind free digital currencies. Edited March 8, 2014 by John Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 You prove his point. It works outside the space and in so doing, breaks the law if its users don't report the transactions. I was involved in a litigation over an alternate currency that was backed by gold. There might be legit transactions in any of them but all of them, so far, are criminal havens. It's definitely a problem in the libertarian dream behind free digital currencies. Hardly. The thriving existence of a currency that operates outside of the jurisdiction of the United States, yet is globally accepted, and is used by major retailers in no way validates his point. It validates mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Hardly. The thriving existence of a currency that operates outside of the jurisdiction of the United States, yet is globally accepted, and is used by major retailers in no way validates his point. It validates mine. You just described the British pound or the Euro. So tell me what's so special about Bitcoin that the transacting parties don't need to disclose the transactions under existing regulations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The ones that are gaga over bitcoin probably had mint sets of football cards n the 80s. I'll be cashing in my Beanie Baby collection to pay for the kids' college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Hardly. The thriving existence of a currency that operates outside of the jurisdiction of the United States, yet is globally accepted, and is used by major retailers in no way validates his point. It validates mine. I'm no expert at EU or Japan tax law but I suspect that if you conduct a transaction in bit coins in those countries and thereby bypass a tax, you have an obligation to report it, just like you would here. And I'm sure many bit coin transactions run afoul of other laws in those countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckinny Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 the whole bitcoin thing makes it sound like i can hit a brick block and get coins to pop up, or a mushroom and I get to grow really really tall! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 the whole bitcoin thing makes it sound like i can hit a brick block and get coins to pop up, or a mushroom and I get to grow really really tall! Depends on the mushroom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 You just described the British pound or the Euro. So tell me what's so special about Bitcoin that the transacting parties don't need to disclose the transactions under existing regulations? Hardly. Bitcoin isn't beholden to the Pound, Euro, Yuan, or Ruble either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Hardly. Bitcoin isn't beholden to the Pound, Euro, Yuan, or Ruble either. And the other currencies aren't beholden to each other either. Answer the basic question - what makes bitcoin special that the parties don't have to record their transactions under existing regulations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) And the other currencies aren't beholden to each other either. Answer the basic question - what makes bitcoin special that the parties don't have to record their transactions under existing regulations? But they are beholden to their own country. Bitcoin isn't restrained in that way. It's not a National currency. This denies any government primary ownership, which is all their rules are in place for in the first place. You don't have to like it, but that's exactly what it accomplishes. Edited March 11, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 It's not a National currency. This denies government primary ownership, which is all their rules are in place for in the first place. You don't have to like it, but that's exactly what it accomplishes. Stop speaking swahili, when I'm asking you a question in English. Two parties conduct a transaction, let's say selling a home, which is settled in bitcoin. Most countries have laws that require the disclosure of that transaction. What makes bitcoin different that you no longer have to disclose that transaction? It's really a very simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Stop speaking swahili, when I'm asking you a question in English. Two parties conduct a transaction, let's say selling a home, which is settled in bitcoin. Most countries have laws that require the disclosure of that transaction. What makes bitcoin different that you no longer have to disclose that transaction? It's really a very simple question. It depends on what you're purchasing. Given the existing laws surrounding real estate, and how those transactions are recorded, there is really no way to safely conduct those transactions without reporting it, so a bitcoin transaction would be best if filed in those cases; were one to even make the transaction in bitcoins. The smarter way to proceed would likely to be to convert the bitcoins to cash, so as to continue to conceal bitcoin usage depending on how the bitcoins were aquired, and if the aquisition were reported. For other transactions, such as payment for services, and international shipping; bitcoin serves those needs admirably, were one to desire non-compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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