uncle flap Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 For the love of all that's holy, can we stop double spacing between sentences? And starting sentences with conjunctions is done by every professional writer I know. Anyone who says otherwise learned English in an ESL class. Seriously, this guy is going by a pamphlet on "business correspondence" circa 1970. He's probably submitting his posts by a tele-facsimile apparatus.
John Adams Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) I do not agree with you that starting sentences with conjunctions is ok, or that split infinitives are perfectly proper in English. This may be so in colloquial English, but not in proper English. I teach writing as a part of my profession, and I am on record to say that you are simply wrong on this matter. If we want to avoid criticism of each other's grammar, it is better to simply say that we should not be sticklers for such things on this message board, and we should all overlook the errors to which we are all prone from time to time. Let us not try to avoid such criticism by arguing that bad grammar is actually good grammar. I don't knock people's grammar here. Most try for good grammar and people like me don't review much of what we post here, so we all make mistakes. This thread just happened to turn into a grammar theory discussion and I am a stickler to people putting out bad information on usage. You can choose not to agree about conjunctions but you'd be wrong. As a writing teacher, I challenge you to find a modern usage dictionary (Garner, Fowler's) that states that starting a sentence with a conjunction is poor grammar. The most widely read and edited (by the most anal sticklers for grammar rules in the world) pages in journalism are the Wall Street Journal and New York Times editorial pages. Go to them now and highlight every instance of a sentence that starts with a conjunction. You will find many. I hope you revise your thinking after doing some research on this. It will help your students' writing. http://www.nytimes.c...nion/index.html The 3rd grade rule about not starting sentences with a conjunction was put in place to stop Jimmy from writing his Summer Vacation Essay like this. "I went to the pool. And then I went to the park. And then we went to Niagara Falls. And then..." This is stylistically poor but not bad grammar so a teacher told her students not to start sentences with conjunctions. That morphed into a "grammar rule" that does not exist. You can also choose not to agree with me on split infinitives. Again, you will not find this rule in any credible usage text. It depends on your stylistic context whether you want to split the infinitive. "To boldly go" or "to go boldly" are both proper adverb placements in English. For the love of all that's holy, can we stop double spacing between sentences? And starting sentences with conjunctions is done by every professional writer I know. Anyone who says otherwise learned English in an ESL class. One of my first edits in many things I read is ctrl-H ". " tab ". " enter. Doublespacing is nonsense leftover from the typewriter era but a lot of teachers don't get it. Edited May 17, 2013 by John Adams
John Adams Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) I am at my desk next to Garner's Modern American Usage, so I'll quote it--excuse the typos and assume they are mine. Conjunctions. A. Starting sentences with. Fowler calls the notion that sentences shouldn't start with conjunctions a "prejudice [that] lingers from a bygone time...The supposed rule is without foundation in grammar, logic, or art." And. A. Beginning sentences with. It is rank superstition that this coordinating conjunction cannot properly begin a sentence. [chain of examples follows.] The very best writers find occasion to begin sentences with and. [Another chain of examples.] Split infinitives. A. Generally. H. W. Fowler divided the English speaking world into five classes: (1) Those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; (2) those who do not know, but care very much; (3) those who know and condemn; (4) those who know and approve; and (5) those who know and distinguish. It is this last class to which, if we have a good ear, we aspire...[explanation of what a split infinitive is]...Although few armchair grammarian seem to know it, split infinitives are regarded as perfectly proper. [multiple grammar usage sources cited]. Garner goes on for pages on split infinitives. His one warning against splitting is stylistic: He advises against wide splits that place the preposition too far from the verb. His other warning is to avoid splitting if you cannot distinguish the difference between say, "to flatly state" and "to state flatly." Otherwise, his entry is full of examples of why it is proper. Edited May 17, 2013 by John Adams
pimp 2 Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) I wasn't being critical of "others" and certainly not of Marrone. I was simply conveying a story about a co-worker who has no business being employed for reasons which go way beyond her grammar. Of course, you wouldn't know that nor would you know anything about me or my history on this board given your whopping 116 posts. But, hey, you're a "pimp" so you must be the cool voice of reason around here. Gotcha! But just because I have a modest number of posts doesn't mean that I'm new to this site. I have learned to read the comments before I post a redundant response . I know that's a novel concept on most message boards but I defer... BTW,I try to be the voice of reason, thank you. Edited May 17, 2013 by pimp 2
MOFO Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 Gotcha! But just because I have a modest number of posts doesn't mean I'm new to the site. I learned to read response before a post redundant comments . I know that's a novel concept on most message boards but I defer... BTW,I try to be the voice of reason, thank you.
pimp 2 Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) LOL...I'll edit.I was rushing a bit in my response clearly...gotta love it! Edited May 17, 2013 by pimp 2
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 Well, the post game interviews will still be better than listening to Bellichick....I reckon. I reckon? Dagnabit that Buddy Nix! It is 100% proper and you saying otherwise, even in jest, will lead the feeble minded to their doom. Wadya mean? Friends don't let friends joke about the split-infinitive rule... John Adams, I agree with you…. Just my opinion! I'm with John Adams on this one. He's one of our founding fathers, after all. Why don't you go back to Russia! Seriously, this guy is going by a pamphlet on "business correspondence" circa 1970. He's probably submitting his posts by a tele-facsimile apparatus.
mousetrap08 Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 Tolstoy your name should be The English Professor.
Dopey Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 Since we're into grammar and all: Quoted on Buffalobills.com, when referring to the need to institute blitz packages as early as OTA's, OTAs, here is what the head-coach head coach of the Bills said: Fixed. OTAs -- not a possessive or a contraction. Head coach is not hyphenated. And... Whew. I can't follow that. We could be in for some painful post-game press conferences. But, I suppose that doesn't really matter. If he wins, I could couldn't care less whether if he puts a grammatical sentence together. You're saying you actually care. And whether x or y. You have no y. Something has to give. Further, it'll be a long season with two spaces between each of your sentences. One space is accepted practice in business writing, the Internet and most of civilized society. Even Marone knows that. Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.
Dennis in NC Posted May 18, 2013 Posted May 18, 2013 Like " I don't know why it happened. We will have to see the tapes and figure it out. I don't have any answers for it yet". And it was like a broken record week in, week out. Kay Stephenson had his favorite phrase "Well, we're not getting the job done." When the same sh@# happens every week you bring out the same old phrase. And to the poster doing the critique of the OP, you might want to spell Marrone with two Rs, not just one.
tombstone56 Posted May 18, 2013 Posted May 18, 2013 Quoted on Buffalobills.com, when referring to the need to institute blitz packages as early as OTA's, here is what the head-coach of the Bills said: “Everyone in OTAs now is doing it,” said head coach Doug Marrone. “We have to get our players ready. You think about how training from an offensive standpoint, we’re getting the technique correct and then you’re going forward and working on those technique and fundamentals. Then for the quarterback he’s going to throw a route versus air. Then the next point is decision making. So the faster we can get to situations where is it zone, or is it pressure? Now they have to make decisions on the field and the better they’ll become and the better the evaluation for us.” Whew. I can't follow that. We could be in for some painful post-game press conferences. But, I suppose that doesn't really matter. If he wins, I could care less whether he puts a grammatical sentence together. YOU MUST BE THE GUY THAT LISTENS TO THE CONSTITUTION AND COMPLAINS ABOUT SPELLING......A-********
DefenseWinzChampionshipz Posted May 18, 2013 Posted May 18, 2013 Since we're into grammar and all: Quoted on Buffalobills.com, when referring to the need to institute blitz packages as early as OTA's, OTAs, here is what the head-coach head coach of the Bills said: Fixed. OTAs -- not a possessive or a contraction. Head coach is not hyphenated. And... Whew. I can't follow that. We could be in for some painful post-game press conferences. But, I suppose that doesn't really matter. If he wins, I could couldn't care less whether if he puts a grammatical sentence together. You're saying you actually care. And whether x or y. You have no y. Something has to give. Further, it'll be a long season with two spaces between each of your sentences. One space is accepted practice in business writing, the Internet and most of civilized society. Even Marone knows that. GOT HIM!
Just in Atlanta Posted May 18, 2013 Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) Kay Stephenson had his favorite phrase "Well, we're not getting the job done." When the same sh@# happens every week you bring out the same old phrase. And to the poster doing the critique of the OP, you might want to spell Marrone with two Rs, not just one. Kay Stephenson had his favorite phrase "Well, we're not getting the job done." When the same sh@# happens every week you bring out the same old phrase. And to the poster doing the critique of the OP, you might want to spell Marrone with two Rs, not just one. That poster was making a point about ripping others for their grammar while the rippers making multiple mistakes themselves. But yeah, the poster shoulda known better. One R. WTF was he thinking? Edited May 18, 2013 by Just in Atlanta
Tolstoy Posted May 18, 2013 Author Posted May 18, 2013 GOT HIM! Check my later post. His corrections are wrong, save for one: head coach should not be hyphenated. But go ahead and get excited if it makes you feel better.
Just in Atlanta Posted May 18, 2013 Posted May 18, 2013 Check my later post. His corrections are wrong, save for one: Head coach should not be hyphenated. But go ahead and get excited if it makes you feel better. Fixed. Commonly-accepted style is to capitalize the first word after a colon if the phrase can be used as a full sentence. And what he meant to say was everything, except one, was correct. But even that was intended to show the absurdity of bashing someone's spoken English, which often doesn't translate well to paper. Mr. Tolstoy, who professes to be a writing instructor or something, is living in a 1950s 4th grade grammar class. People who get paid to write for a living do pretty much everything opposite of what he says.
Tolstoy Posted May 18, 2013 Author Posted May 18, 2013 Fixed. Commonly-accepted style is to capitalize the first word after a colon if the phrase can be used as a full sentence. And what he meant to say was everything, except one, was correct. But even that was intended to show the absurdity of bashing someone's spoken English, which often doesn't translate well to paper. Mr. Tolstoy, who professes to be a writing instructor or something, is living in a 1950s 4th grade grammar class. People who get paid to write for a living do pretty much everything opposite of what he says. Hey Just in Atlanta! No need to get nasty. College composition is only part of my profession. Frankly, I couldn't get much satisfaction from correcting how people speak or write for a living. I find it very tedious. However, I respect people who attempt to maintain a standard of proper English, and certainly our english teachers who devote their lives to correcting student writing and grammar. At any rate, I certainly make quite a few mistakes myself, and don't make a habit of running around correcting people's grammar. The OP was generated because it was not the first time I was frustrated reading or listening to Marrone and trying to understand precisely what he says. He may be a darn good coach (that remains to be seen, doesn't it?), but listening to him is not half as easy as listening to Chan or Marv. What is funny is that everyone is ready to anoint him the "second coming." I will reserve judgment, having gone through such dashed hopes too many times in the past. My only point is that he is not a master of the english language. Does that mean anything? No not really (although I wonder how good his speeches to his team could be....).
Just in Atlanta Posted May 19, 2013 Posted May 19, 2013 Not nasty. Just spirited banter in the offseason.
benderbender Posted May 19, 2013 Posted May 19, 2013 I come for the Bills topics, but I stay for the grammar lessons.
DefenseWinzChampionshipz Posted May 19, 2013 Posted May 19, 2013 I feel like cutting this class... Who's coming with me?
Marv's Neighbor Posted May 19, 2013 Posted May 19, 2013 The man can stand there with his mouth moving and words coming for long periods of time and say nothing. We win and it's cool. Otherwise in 2 years we'll be making fun of him and calling him a dumb ass and saying we knew all long it was a bad hire and wanting to hire the Chin (again). Hope he's not the 21st Century Hank Bullough!
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