Mario Williams: no love for

[NoSaint]

I would think he could tell her to keep the ring all she wants, especially under duress. The law seems pretty clear in Texas and New York... It should be returned in a broken contract.

 

My understanding is that is the default, unspoken term but once he puts "keep it" in writing it gets a heck of a lot more murky as you no longer have to default to that as an actual agreement has been potentially reached. In theory, his explicit instructions could supersede the "in absence of other agreement" handling.

 

 

What gives me long pause though is that his attorney is ATROCIOUS if he's advised Mario to go for this and let all the laundry be aired publicly if he didnt think it was a slam dunk, whereas the other side could arguably say "what do we have to lose by pressuring him even if we're wrong."

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

My understanding is that is the default, unspoken term but once he puts "keep it" in writing it gets a heck of a lot more murky as you no longer have to default to that as an actual agreement has been potentially reached. In theory, his explicit instructions could supersede the "in absence of other agreement" handling.

 

 

What gives me long pause though is that his attorney is ATROCIOUS if he's advised Mario to go for this and let all the laundry be aired publicly if he didnt think it was a slam dunk, whereas the other side could arguably say "what do we have to lose by pressuring him even if we're wrong."

 

Even under duress? And what constitutes "writing"... Surely not a text message?

[NoSaint]

 

 

Even under duress? And what constitutes "writing"... Surely not a text message?

 

Maybe you don't realize it but yes, a text is a recorded statement that he will now have to defend, as opposed to her just saying he told her and it being totally he said she said. People don't realize that yes, texts are serious courtroom evidence for some reason.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Maybe you don't realize it but yes, a text is a recorded statement that he will now have to defend, as opposed to her just saying he told her and it being totally he said she said. People don't realize that yes, texts are serious courtroom evidence for some reason.

 

Interesting. Can't people hack them? Who knows who used the phone? He deletes it, she doesn't... Does the phone carrier have a record and can they pull that? Do they have to pull the carriers record? Heck, can the carrier even find them... Why wouldn't they delete them to save space?

[JohnC]

What gives me long pause though is that his attorney is ATROCIOUS if he's advised Mario to go for this and let all the laundry be aired publicly if he didnt think it was a slam dunk, whereas the other side could arguably say "what do we have to lose by pressuring him even if we're wrong."

 

There is a good possibility that Mario's attorney advised his client to settle. That doesn't mean that his client is willing to accept his advice. If that is the case the attorney is going to continue on and scrupulously keep track of his billable hours.

 

Mario's ex does have a lot at stake if she is the one unwilling to compromise and settle (if that is the case) because if she loses she is going to have a hefty legal bill and be forced to return a gaudy ring. A protracted legal battle that ends up in court can easily result in a six figure bill.

Edited June 2, 2013 by JohnC

[Mr. WEO]

The context of the communication for these two antagonists is of a tumultuous relationship where over a period of time the relationshp was ended and back together, again and again. Within that combative environment words can't always be assumed to be literal.

 

 

The context will be clear to anyone reading the reams of pages she has produced regarding texts he sent. It would very difficult for him to convince a jury, let alone a judge, that he didn't mean what he said over and over.

 

I would think he could tell her to keep the ring all she wants, especially under duress. The law seems pretty clear in Texas and New York... It should be returned in a broken contract.

 

This "duress" is a stretch. Unless you believe he has a significant mental illness, a judge is unlikey to give much weight to Mario's drama queen behavior.

 

My understanding is that is the default, unspoken term but once he puts "keep it" in writing it gets a heck of a lot more murky as you no longer have to default to that as an actual agreement has been potentially reached. In theory, his explicit instructions could supersede the "in absence of other agreement" handling.

 

 

What gives me long pause though is that his attorney is ATROCIOUS if he's advised Mario to go for this and let all the laundry be aired publicly if he didnt think it was a slam dunk, whereas the other side could arguably say "what do we have to lose by pressuring him even if we're wrong."

 

It's interesting--and that's exactly what her lawyer said about Mario's suspect representation in this case.

 

Even under duress? And what constitutes "writing"... Surely not a text message?

 

Really?? A text message, which is a written message sent directly to another person electronically....is not writing? Are you Mario's crackerjack lawyer?!

 

The obvious argument they are making is that once he repeatedly told her to keep the ring (in writing), it was no longer an engagement ring contingent on them getting married.

 

If he had said "please keep this ring as a momento of our time together" would it have made you see this more clearly?

 

Oh, wait, that's essentially what he said in writing.

 

Interesting. Can't people hack them? Who knows who used the phone? He deletes it, she doesn't... Does the phone carrier have a record and can they pull that? Do they have to pull the carriers record? Heck, can the carrier even find them... Why wouldn't they delete them to save space?

 

 

This was widely reported weeks ago...She deleted them. Her lawyer had the phone company dig them up (they never go away, you know--all of your texts are saved by your carrier).

Edited June 2, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[NoSaint]

 

 

Interesting. Can't people hack them? Who knows who used the phone? He deletes it, she doesn't... Does the phone carrier have a record and can they pull that? Do they have to pull the carriers record? Heck, can the carrier even find them... Why wouldn't they delete them to save space?

 

Would an email be fair to put on the record for court? A Facebook message? A tweet? Just because "text" doesn't sound official the fact that he's put it in a record that they can print out and hand to a judge/jury is not good. I suppose he can argue someone stole his phone, and figured out the password that an athlete surely has locking access to it but.... It would've helped if he already said that instead of "yea but you say things when you are angry"

 

To correct/question Weo, I thought they mined them off her phone, not some phone carrier server.

 

 

 

There is a good possibility that Mario's attorney advised his client to settle. That doesn't mean that his client is willing to accept his advice. If that is the case the attorney is going to continue on and scrupulously keep track of his billable hours.

 

Mario's ex does have a lot at stake if she is the one unwilling to compromise and settle (if that is the case) because if she loses she is going to have a hefty legal bill and be forced to return a gaudy ring. A protracted legal battle that ends up in court can easily result in a six figure bill.

 

Remind me again, wouldn't said ex likely have the attorney working payment based on outcome - ie even if he loses he's getting national exposure as a pitbull, and if he wins he gets that street cred plus a portion if winnings?

 

I doubt as a loser she ends up owing 6 figures.

Edited June 2, 2013 by NoSaint

[Doc]

There's another angle I've been meaning to address but have been forgetting. The fact that she deleted the texts will come back and haunt her. If they were so important/believable, she would have kept them as a record.

[NoSaint]

There's another angle I've been meaning to address but have been forgetting. The fact that she deleted the texts will come back and haunt her. If they were so important/believable, she would have kept them as a record.

 

Don't think it'll hurt her at all. It's easy to accidentally delete everything from a contact, and she can also easily say "I didnt think this was going to court, he said he didn't want the ring and I moved on"

 

The biggest thing will be the context of where they fall in the conversation that day and the back and forth breakup/makeup cycle

[Doc]

Don't think it'll hurt her at all. It's easy to accidentally delete everything from a contact, and she can also easily say "I didnt think this was going to court, he said he didn't want the ring and I moved on"

 

The biggest thing will be the context of where they fall in the conversation that day and the back and forth breakup/makeup cycle

I'm sure she'll claim she accidentally deleted them. If I were Mario's lawyer, I'd say that it proves that the texts after things went south weren't truthful and her actions in deleting them prove this. And say that ignorance (in knowing to keep them) isn't an excuse. She's 31 after all.

[NoSaint]

 

I'm sure she'll claim she accidentally deleted them. If I were Mario's lawyer, I'd say that it proves that the texts after things went south weren't truthful and her actions in deleting them prove this. And say that ignorance (in knowing to keep them) isn't an excuse. She's 31 after all.

 

 

Legally, I'm pretty sure that's ridiculous, but you never know what will stick with someone making the decision.

[JohnC]

 

Remind me again, wouldn't said ex likely have the attorney working payment based on outcome - ie even if he loses he's getting national exposure as a pitbull, and if he wins he gets that street cred plus a portion if winnings?

 

I doubt as a loser she ends up owing 6 figures.

 

I don't know the arrangements she has made to pay for her attorney's services. Did the lawyer and his firm work out a contingency payment where he would get a set portion from the proceeds of the sale of the ring if he wins the case? Maybe. But in a domestic situation attorneys usually charge for services (billable hours). They don't come cheap. As far as using her case to promote his law practice (win or lose) instead of being paid for services-----I doubt it. If he has a successful practice he has more than enough prospective clients to decide to represent.

 

I'm not saying that taking on a high profile case wasn't an appealing factor to take on this case but most high powered attorneys will get their money win or lose. Liability attorneys fall in another category where they most often do work on a contingency basis. The scenario we are discussing falls into a domestic type situation where the parties are fighting over assets.

 

I'm confident that win or lose this aggressive attorney is going to make a chunk a change from either his client or from the opposition, if that is part of the settlement.

[NoSaint]

 

 

I don't know the arrangements she has made to pay for her attorney's services. Did the lawyer and his firm work out a contingency payment where he would get a set portion from the proceeds of the sale of the ring if he wins the case? Maybe. But in a domestic situation attorneys usually charge for services (billable hours). They don't come cheap. As far as using her case to promote his law practice (win or lose) instead of being paid for services-----I doubt it. If he has a successful practice he has more than enough prospective clients to decide to represent.

 

I'm not saying that taking on a high profile case wasn't an appealing factor to take on this case but most high powered attorneys will get their money win or lose. Liability attorneys fall in another category where they most often do work on a contingency basis. The scenario we are discussing falls into a domestic type situation where the parties are fighting over assets.

 

I'm confident that win or lose this aggressive attorney is going to make a chunk a change from either his client or from the opposition, if that is part of the settlement.

 

I'm sure he has some money coming his way but in a case of average man vs rich celeb I'd guess his payouts MUCH larger on a victory.... And not 6 figures on a loss. Could be wrong but...

Edited June 2, 2013 by NoSaint

[Doc]

Legally, I'm pretty sure that's ridiculous, but you never know what will stick with someone making the decision.

It's hardly ridiculous. It all goes to state of mind, which is key here.

[JohnC]

I'm sure he has some money coming his way but in a case of average man vs rich celeb I'd guess his payouts MUCH larger on a victory.... And not 6 figures on a loss. Could be wrong but...

 

If this contest becomes a protracted legal battle ending up in court my guess is that the legal costs will run into the six figures. This is a civil case that could take quite some time to get on the court docket. It wasn't a cheap endeavor to petition the phone company for all the texts that were sent over the years. After that is done they need to be reviewed and categorized. How many billable hours do you think that will take? For the sake of giving an example if that effort took 25 hrs (billable hours) and the hourly rate was $200-250 per hour you are in the range of $6000 plus for a very small segment of the case. Pretrial motions and counter motions need to be factorred in. Everytime the lawyer takesto the podium to respond to his counterpart the billing clock is ticking. There is a good probability that an investigative service will be contracted with to examine Mario's outside of the nest sleeping habits. Although the client won't be billed directly for this service you can be sure that the costs will be factored in. How much do you think it will cost for her law firm to depose Mario and any other relevant parties (girlfriends)? Then her side will be deposed. She will have her attorneys with her during those proceedings. The billable hours keep adding up. Prior to the trial there will be meetings with the judge to determine the ground rules and what is relevant. The billing clock keeps ticking on.

 

You also have to factor in that Mario has high caliber attorneys representing him who are not going to allow many issues to go unchallenged. Mario has a lot of resources and he is not going to be afraid to use it in this heated personal battle. Civil cases are not quick action cases. In the court system they are subordinate to criminal cases. This is a domestic dispute that the court system doesn't consider to be a priority case.

 

Odds are that this case is going to be settled around the mediation table. I don't believe this case is going to be resolved in court. In my view it is in both parties interest to come to a settlement before it advances to a trial setting..

Edited June 2, 2013 by JohnC

[Mr. WEO]

Would an email be fair to put on the record for court? A Facebook message? A tweet? Just because "text" doesn't sound official the fact that he's put it in a record that they can print out and hand to a judge/jury is not good. I suppose he can argue someone stole his phone, and figured out the password that an athlete surely has locking access to it but.... It would've helped if he already said that instead of "yea but you say things when you are angry"

 

To correct/question Weo, I thought they mined them off her phone, not some phone carrier server.

 

 

 

Remind me again, wouldn't said ex likely have the attorney working payment based on outcome - ie even if he loses he's getting national exposure as a pitbull, and if he wins he gets that street cred plus a portion if winnings?

 

I doubt as a loser she ends up owing 6 figures.

 

All of your texts can be retrieved. Her lawyer had them retrieved.

 

There's another angle I've been meaning to address but have been forgetting. The fact that she deleted the texts will come back and haunt her. If they were so important/believable, she would have kept them as a record.

 

Nah, this IS legally ridiculous. It doesn't matter why she deleted them. They exist. And they say what they say. What "state of mind" will erase what they say?

 

You're grasping at straws.

 

I hope Mario's lawyer isn't too "high priced", for his sake.

[NoSaint]

 

 

All of your texts can be retrieved. Her lawyer had them retrieved.

 

 

Just re-skimmed a couple articles, still under the impression that it was a cache on her phone that had the deleted message stored, not that every text in the history of text messages is on some server at AT&T (in duplicate for both sender and receivers records nonetheless). IE he gave the phone to an IT guy, not that he got them from the phone company.

 

It's a minor point of information, but on an academic level I'm curious. Makes no difference to this case.

[Doc]

Nah, this IS legally ridiculous. It doesn't matter why she deleted them. They exist. And they say what they say. What "state of mind" will erase what they say?

 

You're grasping at straws.

 

I hope Mario's lawyer isn't too "high priced", for his sake.

Why? Even a low-priced lawyer would be able to win this case for Mario. I've been arguing that the texts he sent were flippant in nature ("keep the ring, because that's what a gold-digger would do" and "I'm gonna kill myself with 2 whole Vicodins!"). She thought so little of the texts, even the ones saying she could keep the ring, she deleted them! You don't delete important information. She's even more naive than I thought. Maybe that's the angle Buzbee should pursue? "Your honor, my client isn't too swift. She's gonna need all the cash she can get."

[Mr. WEO]

Why? Even a low-priced lawyer would be able to win this case for Mario. I've been arguing that the texts he sent were flippant in nature ("keep the ring, because that's what a gold-digger would do" and "I'm gonna kill myself with 2 whole Vicodins!"). She thought so little of the texts, even the ones saying she could keep the ring, she deleted them! You don't delete important information. She's even more naive than I thought. Maybe that's the angle Buzbee should pursue? "Your honor, my client isn't too swift. She's gonna need all the cash she can get."

 

Unfortunately, his actual texts are not the ones you just made up. And it doesn't matter if she deleted them. Your contention makes no sense. If she tore up a document that said "please keep the ring as a token of our relationship", and then produced a duplicate signed document, it wouldn't matter what she did with the first copy.

 

What only matters is Mario's texts telling her to keep it. There is no way you, as his low priced lawyer, could argue that he "changed his mind" or "he didn't mean it". Maybe you would tell the judge that she broke up the engagement when he told her he still wanted to see other women during the engagement (as you said before "have his cake and eat it too"). Yeah, that should do it!

 

NoSaint---you are correct. In this case, the texts were retrieved by some forensic tech guy.

[Doc]

Unfortunately, his actual texts are not the ones you just made up. And it doesn't matter if she deleted them. Your contention makes no sense. If she tore up a document that said "please keep the ring as a token of our relationship", and then produced a duplicate signed document, it wouldn't matter what she did with the first copy.

 

What only matters is Mario's texts telling her to keep it. There is no way you, as his low priced lawyer, could argue that he "changed his mind" or "he didn't mean it". Maybe you would tell the judge that she broke up the engagement when he told her he still wanted to see other women during the engagement (as you said before "have his cake and eat it too"). Yeah, that should do it!

No, obviously there's a lot more to it than merely the texts giving her rights to the ring, otherwise this would have been settled by now. I've been saying the texts weren't believable and I paraphrased in a manner consistent with my position. Now you add that she deleted them and needed a forensic tech guy to retrieve them, meaning it wasn't a matter of being able to retrieve them easily later, and it casts further doubt on the believability of them. If the roles were reversed and Mario (who is 3 years her junior BTW) had done the same thing, what would you be saying? I think we both know.

 

And hmmmmm. If I were some dude's fiancee and he told me he wanted to see other women during our engagement, I'd...break off the engagement! Not a hard concept to grasp.