eball Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 If the best you can do when criticizing Manuel is bring-up high school WR ratings and projections that have yet to bear fruit, while ignoring the numerous other problems FSU had on offense (not to mention the defense's performance against Florida), you're not exactly dealing from a position of strength. But...but...EJ didn't stop three 4th downs against NC State on the final drive, and he didn't stop Florida from rushing for some ungodly amount of yards against FSU's top defense...any truly legitimate pro QB prospect would have "willed" that defense to the win.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 If the best you can do when criticizing Manuel is bring-up high school WR ratings and projections that have yet to bear fruit, while ignoring the numerous other problems FSU had on offense (not to mention the defense's performance against Florida), you're not exactly dealing from a position of strength. I'm guessing that you're not intending on directing this post towards Beastly Dareus? Beastly Dareus is the one saying "In the end, high school rankings don't mean anything."
Matt in KC Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I get it....im with you if you look at the angle that Marshawn stays (and improves a bit as he did in Seattle WHAT A BEAST gotta show him some love, he's killing it for Seattle FTR), then pair that with possible later picks in that draft JPP, Dez Bryant, Demaryius Thomas, Earl Thomas or Iupati... if theoretically it was trade CJ for Marshawn and Dez Bryant? im taking beast mode back love Dez Bryant.... missed on Dez, Russ Wilson, Kaep, Orakpo and on and on gotta hope Buddy finally crushed a pick and the EJ/CJ/SJ triumvirate is firing on all cylinders right out of the gate to justify all of the past mistakes. But of course you'd also have to throw in the picks we got for Lynch: Chris Hairston and Tank Carder (who while we let him go was a legitimate shot at a position of need). I loved rooting for Lynch and the punishment he'd lay on defenses (same as Henry). But, they needed a plan in case he was suspended for a year. I likely would have dealt him too. It's just a question whether they got fair value and if it was the right call to take a RB high in the next draft. Who do you prefer at the time of the 2011 draft? Spiller, Chris Hairston, and a 5th round LB prospect (2012) Marshawn Lynch (one poor decision from a long suspension), and Dez Bryant (with some character questions) These were two separate decisions; 1) Let Lynch go 2) Select CJ #9. While I agree with letting Lynch go, I think CJ was just a decent choice. I'd generally prefer proven QBs or freak linemen that high, though we really did need a playmaker on offense. Sorry for the tangent. Go EJ! I'm as excited about him as I've been for any new QB on the team (since JP Losman )
eball Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 When you have two Pro-Bowl caliber running backs already? Yeah, you have to be really damned good to take another RB at the 9th pick. If we had **** and crap at the position, CJ would have been a fantastic pick, and I would judge Nix less harshly. Seems you guys are having a hard time understanding that my gripe isn't about CJ, but it's about the pick. Ok, let's stop the nonsense here. CJ Spiller is a bonafide playmaker, and to imply a team shouldn't draft playmakers is absurd. I don't care that it took a year and a half of Chan Gailey's dicking around before CJ broke out. Marshawn Lynch was anything but a "lock" at the time, and Fred Jackson was still largely unproven. It wasn't a "reach" or "luxury pick" then -- not by a longshot.
John Cocktosten Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) You do realize that supports my arguement and only weakens your arguement? Re-read that write-up. Also that article ranked the WR corps based on players rankings coming out of high school. Remember, Sam Young was once ranked the #2 OT coming out of high school (in 2006), then he was average in Notre Dame and undrafted. Bryce Brown was considered the best high school prospect in the 2009 class, he ended up being a 7th round pick. Russell Sheppard was considered the 2nd best QB prospect and 3rd or 4th best overall prospect in the 2009 class... he turned out to be nothing. Beannie Wells, Stafon Johnson, and Keiland Williams were all ranked better than CJ Spiller in 2006. I could keep going if I wanted to. In the end, high school rankings don't mean anything. Prospects don't live up to their rankings more often than they do. Stop making your conclusions based on high school rankings. FSU dos not have tons of weapons for their QB's, just look at how many RB/WR/TE's have been drafted out of FSU during EJ Manuel's time there. Also, its funny you have to resort to name calling. Thats what people do when they know they don't know what they are talking about. It's also funny how your the only one that agrees with yourself in this thread. Yet your calling everyone else a "sheep" LOL No it did not rank them based on recruiting rankings. BOTH Athlon and ESPN rank them according to who they think are the best. That's two sources saying that they are 6 and 7 IN THE COUNTRY. But they're wrong I know. I And quit saying that recruiting rankings don't mean squat because Bama, the team that's won 3 out of the last 4, has had the top class 4 or 5 years in a row. So exactly how do rankings mean squat? Who are the best teams in CFB? LSU, UF, OSU, UGA and they are always in the top of the recruiting rankings. Does that mean that every 4/5 * turns out of course it doesn't. I'll re-post this for those who say recruiting doesn't mean anything. Recruiting is everything in CFB. http://www.cbssports...otball/21641769 On the final count, the higher-ranked team according to the recruiting rankings won almost exactly two-thirds of the time (66.4 percent of the time, to be exact), and every "class" as a whole had a winning record against every class ranked below it every single year. (The only exception, if it even qualifies, came last year, when "two-star" teams finished one game below .500 in head-to-head collisions with "one-star" teams. Elsewhere, the hierarchy held across every line.) The gap on the field also widened with the gap in the recruiting scores: At the extremes, "one-star" recruiting teams managed a grand total of six wins over "four-star" and "five-star" recruiters in 59 tries. Where a small handful of teams defied their rankings, none managed to do so as part of a larger group. The whole point of me posting any of this is that I keep hearing everyone say EJ didn't have talent around him. That's total crap and the two articles that I posted proved it no matter what you want to believe. Btw, he has a very good backfield that rushed for almost 3K this year. But that doesn't matter either. So even though FSU has had a top 10 class 5 years running in the state where the best players come from EJ was surrounded by crap? Only on this board do posters lack an ounce of objectivity. Hilarious! Edited May 7, 2013 by John Cocktosten
Doc Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I'm guessing that you're not intending on directing this post towards Beastly Dareus? Beastly Dareus is the one saying "In the end, high school rankings don't mean anything." That was not my intention and my posts on this thread have been pro-Manuel.
thebandit27 Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 No it did not rank them based on recruiting rankings. BOTH Athlon and ESPN rank them according to who they think are the best. That's two sources saying that they are 6 and 7 IN THE COUNTRY. But they're wrong I know. I And quit saying that recruiting rankings don't mean squat because Bama, the team that's won 3 out of the last 4, has had the top class 4 or 5 years in a row. So exactly how do rankings mean squat? Who are the best teams in CFB? LSU, UF, OSU, UGA and they are always in the top of the recruiting rankings. Does that mean that every 4/5 * turns out of course it doesn't. I'll re-post this for those who say recruiting doesn't mean anything. Recruiting is everything in CFB. http://www.cbssports...otball/21641769 On the final count, the higher-ranked team according to the recruiting rankings won almost exactly two-thirds of the time (66.4 percent of the time, to be exact), and every "class" as a whole had a winning record against every class ranked below it every single year. (The only exception, if it even qualifies, came last year, when "two-star" teams finished one game below .500 in head-to-head collisions with "one-star" teams. Elsewhere, the hierarchy held across every line.) The gap on the field also widened with the gap in the recruiting scores: At the extremes, "one-star" recruiting teams managed a grand total of six wins over "four-star" and "five-star" recruiters in 59 tries. Where a small handful of teams defied their rankings, none managed to do so as part of a larger group. The whole point of me posting any of this is that I keep hearing everyone say EJ didn't have talent around him. That's total crap and the two articles that I posted proved it no matter what you want to believe. Btw, he has a very good backfield that rushed for almost 3K this year. But that doesn't matter either. So even though FSU has had a top 10 class 5 years running in the state where the best players come from EJ was surrounded by crap? Only on this board do posters lack an ounce of objectivity. Hilarious! So you're still under the impression that the BCS awards the title based on preseason rankings an not season performance? Yeah, keep calling everyone else stupid. Also, it says a lot about you that you're more excited to see EJ fail than to see him succeed.
KD in CA Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I remember Luck sucking pretty bad against Oregon. Judging someone on one game is silly Unless we're discussing Manti T'eo.
Beastly Dareus Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) If the best you can do when criticizing Manuel is bring-up high school WR ratings and projections that have yet to bear fruit, while ignoring the numerous other problems FSU had on offense (not to mention the defense's performance against Florida), you're not exactly dealing from a position of strength. Your reading comprehension is obviously not a strength? Where in the world have I criticized EJ Manuel? I am defending the Manuel pick. So I am really confused by that response. No it did not rank them based on recruiting rankings. BOTH Athlon and ESPN rank them according to who they think are the best. That's two sources saying that they are 6 and 7 IN THE COUNTRY. But they're wrong I know. I And quit saying that recruiting rankings don't mean squat because Bama, the team that's won 3 out of the last 4, has had the top class 4 or 5 years in a row. So exactly how do rankings mean squat? Who are the best teams in CFB? LSU, UF, OSU, UGA and they are always in the top of the recruiting rankings. Does that mean that every 4/5 * turns out of course it doesn't. I'll re-post this for those who say recruiting doesn't mean anything. Recruiting is everything in CFB. http://www.cbssports...otball/21641769 On the final count, the higher-ranked team according to the recruiting rankings won almost exactly two-thirds of the time (66.4 percent of the time, to be exact), and every "class" as a whole had a winning record against every class ranked below it every single year. (The only exception, if it even qualifies, came last year, when "two-star" teams finished one game below .500 in head-to-head collisions with "one-star" teams. Elsewhere, the hierarchy held across every line.) The gap on the field also widened with the gap in the recruiting scores: At the extremes, "one-star" recruiting teams managed a grand total of six wins over "four-star" and "five-star" recruiters in 59 tries. Where a small handful of teams defied their rankings, none managed to do so as part of a larger group. The whole point of me posting any of this is that I keep hearing everyone say EJ didn't have talent around him. That's total crap and the two articles that I posted proved it no matter what you want to believe. Btw, he has a very good backfield that rushed for almost 3K this year. But that doesn't matter either. So even though FSU has had a top 10 class 5 years running in the state where the best players come from EJ was surrounded by crap? Only on this board do posters lack an ounce of objectivity. Hilarious! Its clear you are not willing to read entire post and your only objective here is to bash EJ Manuel instead of looking at the facts. Your assumptions are ridiculous and your "high school rankings are everything" mentality is even more ridiculous. NO one is denying Alabama doesn't bring in great recruiting classes. They have stellar defensive recruiting classes. And once again, the ESPN article you keep referring to is based on their high school rankings. If you actually read the article they even say the WR's HAVE NOT lived up to expectations. They say they're injury prone and inconsistent. Not to mention poor route runners and average hands in the college level. It's evident you're simply an EJ Manuel hater, so there is no point in continuing to argue with you. Edited May 7, 2013 by Beastly Dareus
Lurker Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) It's evident you're simply an EJ Manuel hater, so there is no point in continuing to argue with you. As a public service, wouldn't it be better to just use the ignore feature a little more on bomb throwers who want attention, rather than spill their bile all over TSW floor... Edited May 7, 2013 by Lurker
section122 Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I hate when people are clearly trolling and I still take the bait.... July, 31, 2012 The date?!?!?!?! You are basing your entire argument on projections! Not what did happen but what people thought was going to happen. How many times does the preseason favorite falter? 7. Florida State Seminoles Key receivers: Rashad Greene, Willie Haulstead There's a lot of speed here, without question, but a lot of unrealized potential. Greene, Haulstead and Kenny Shaw, among others, have demonstrated a lot of ability. Injuries and inconsistency, however, have limited overall production. Haulstead is a great example. The junior was forced to take a medical redshirt a year ago due to lingering effects from a concussion, and yet he is FSU's only representative on the preseason Biletnikoff watch list. At 6-3 and 233 pounds, he's a tough matchup for ACC corners -- or any league's corners, for that matter. As a freshman, Greene led the team with 596 yards and seven touchdowns. He might turn out to be the Noles' top award candidate, depending on how he continues to mesh with QBEJ Manuel. Even without a proven star, FSU shines with its depth. Senior Rodney Smith and sophomoreChristian Green, the second- and third-leading receivers a year ago, combined for 1,011 WOW I honestly don't know if ever on this board I have seen someone defeat their own argument so thoroughly. Yes, that writeup is very telling indeed. Good work helping your opponents with their arguments, John. Damn it! You beat me to it! I couldn't believe he posted this to "help" support his argument The whole point of me posting any of this is that I keep hearing everyone say EJ didn't have talent around him. That's total crap and the two articles that I posted proved it no matter what you want to believe. Btw, he has a very good backfield that rushed for almost 3K this year. But that doesn't matter either. So even though FSU has had a top 10 class 5 years running in the state where the best players come from EJ was surrounded by crap? Only on this board do posters lack an ounce of objectivity. Hilarious! Says the guy banging the drum that a draft prospect is a failure before ever having taken a snap in the NFL. It has been mentioned repeatedly that people have no issue with your opinion it is your tone and force with which you are trying to convince everyone else (poorly I might add)
Doc Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Your reading comprehension is obviously not a strength? Where in the world have I criticized EJ Manuel? I am defending the Manuel pick. So I am really confused by that response. I'm guessing that you're not intending on directing this post towards Beastly Dareus? Beastly Dareus is the one saying "In the end, high school rankings don't mean anything." That was not my intention and my posts on this thread have been pro-Manuel.
Beastly Dareus Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 As a public service, wouldn't it be better to just use the ignore feature a little more on bomb throwers who want attention, rather than spill their bile all over TSW floor... Yeah, you're correct.
Ramius Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 You guys can keep ignoring the facts I'm sure that the sheep will say that ESPN sucks (CFB is the one thing they get right) It's hilarious to listen to the sheep mentality in this board. Trying to justify the reasons why EJ was average in college. There's always excuses with every Bills reach. Hope it makes you feel better. an't wait to bump this thread. 7. Florida State Seminoles Key receivers: Rashad Greene, Willie Haulstead There's a lot of speed here, without question, but a lot of unrealized potential. Greene, Haulstead and Kenny Shaw, among others, have demonstrated a lot of ability. Injuries and inconsistency, however, have limited overall production. Haulstead is a great example. The junior was forced to take a medical redshirt a year ago due to lingering effects from a concussion, and yet he is FSU's only representative on the preseason Biletnikoff watch list. At 6-3 and 233 pounds, he's a tough matchup for ACC corners -- or any league's corners, for that matter. As a freshman, Greene led the team with 596 yards and seven touchdowns. He might turn out to be the Noles' top award candidate, depending on how he continues to mesh with QBEJ Manuel. Even without a proven star, FSU shines with its depth. Senior Rodney Smith and sophomoreChristian Green, the second- and third-leading receivers a year ago, combined for 1,011 I'm only quoting this little hissy fit, but i'll address all of your tantrums here. The reason Alabama has won 3 championships in 4 years is due to Nick Saban. The guy is one of the all-time best college coaches out there. Yes he gets good talent, but he develops players better than anyone, and puts them in the best position to succeed. Plenty of teams get so-called "top recruiting classes" that end up going nowhere. In college you need to develop talent, not simply recruit it. Tennessee was in or near the top 10 in recruiting classes from 2009-2011, and where'd that get them? Even FSU itself, in the waning years of Bobby Bowden, was still in the top 10 in recruiting rankings, but because no talent got developed, we went nowhere in those years. Recruiting can be a useful tool to address how much overall talent a team is likely to add, but at the player level, the star-ranking means very little. Yes, teams that recruit in the top 10 are typically going to have the best talent, but at the player level, a 5-star vs a 4-star vs a 3-star is meaningless. Check out this little article where it explores the likely 2013 1st round picks and how they were ranked as recruits coming into college (it was done prior to the draft, so thats why their list is based off of a mock draft). http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/-nfl-draft/news/20130424/nfl-draft-picks-as-recruits/ The star rankings of the 2013 top 15 (all picks prior to EJ) are as followed: 2-4-4-0-0-4-3-4-5-3-5-3-5-3-4 As for FSUs WRs, Rashad Greene is the only player who is currently about to breakout into potential superstar. He should be a high round pick, but he's still improving, so EJ didn't get him at his best. You laughably bring up Willie Haulstead in your argument? Willie Haulstead? The guy had a good year in 2010 with Ponder. He unfortunately got a concussion, and missed all of 2011. In 2012, he racked up 3 catches for 31 yards. So 3-31-0 is the production EJ got from Haulstead. Kenny Shaw and Christian Green are nice compliments, but there has been nothing showing that they'll be anything more than above average college players. Kelvin Benjamin has all the physical potential in the world, but he needs to learn to run routes, high point the ball, and become much more rounded. Last year with EJ he was a redshirt freshman. I don't know where you're getting this "FSU was ridiculously talented at WR" bullcrap from. As everyone said previously however. I do thank you for completely disproving your own point with this latest post.
Commander Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 http://collegefootball.ap.org/content/2012-all-acc-football-team FIRST TEAM ALL ACC 2012 Offense QB_Tajh Boyd, Clemson (86) RB_Gio Bernard, North Carolina (91) RB_Andre Ellington, Clemson (77) WR_DeAndre Hopkins, Clemson (80) WR_Alex Amidon, Boston College (53) OT_Oday Aboushi, Virginia (53) OT_Brandon Thomas, Clemson (51) OG_Jonathan Cooper, North Carolina (79) OG_Omoregie Uzzi, Georgia Tech (64) C_Dalton Freeman, Clemson (78) TE_Brandon Ford, Clemson (54) K_Dustin Hopkins, Florida State (79) Spec.— Gio Bernard, North Carolina (48) SECOND TEAM ALL ACC 2012 Offense QB_EJ Manuel, Florida State (25) RB_Duke Johnson, Miami (47) RB_Chris Thompson, Florida State (31) WR_Conner Vernon, Duke (51) WR_Michael Campanaro, Wake Forest (32) OT_James Hurst, North Carolina (50) TIE OT_Cameron Erving, Florida State (21) TIE OT_Emmett Cleary, Boston College (21) OG_Tre' Jackson, Florida State (26) OG_R.J. Matttes, NC State (24) C— Bryan Stork, Florida State (19) TE_Eric Ebron, North Carolina (51) TIE K_Chandler Catanzaro, Clemson (22) TIE K_Casey Barth, North Carolina (22) Spec._Duke Johnson, Miami (44) Not a single FSU WR or TE made First or Second All ACC (which we all know is a piece of crap conference). How crappy must their WR/TE be???
Maury Ballstein Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 http://collegefootba...c-football-team FIRST TEAM ALL ACC 2012 QB_EJ Manuel, Florida State (25) Not a single FSU WR or TE made First or Second All ACC (which we all know is a piece of crap conference). How crappy must their WR/TE be??? Hmmmmm. very interesting? lets hear the JC spin on this one.
Alaska Darin Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 The best way to get out of a hole is to put down the friggin' shovel. Are you guys really arguing with a guy who has the moniker "cocktosten"?
GG Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 The best way to get out of a hole is to put down the friggin' shovel. Exactly. Everyone knows an entrenching tool is much better for the job.
Dorkington Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 Ok, let's stop the nonsense here. CJ Spiller is a bonafide playmaker, and to imply a team shouldn't draft playmakers is absurd. I don't care that it took a year and a half of Chan Gailey's dicking around before CJ broke out. Marshawn Lynch was anything but a "lock" at the time, and Fred Jackson was still largely unproven. It wasn't a "reach" or "luxury pick" then -- not by a longshot. I said nothing about a 'reach'. He wasn't a pick of need at the time (imo), hence along with everything else, Nix doesn't get a good grade for me. The results simply haven't shown on the field since he's become GM. Now, lets say, everything turns around under him, my opinions will change as well. But for now, Nix hasn't been the answer in regards to drafting and signing the right talent.
Ramius Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 I said nothing about a 'reach'. He wasn't a pick of need at the time (imo), hence along with everything else, Nix doesn't get a good grade for me. The results simply haven't shown on the field since he's become GM. Now, lets say, everything turns around under him, my opinions will change as well. But for now, Nix hasn't been the answer in regards to drafting and signing the right talent. Your argument, and CJs talent on the field, are EXACTLY why it is most beneficial to draft for BPA over need, especially high in the draft.
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