EJ's Florida Game Lucky for Bills?

[Doc]

And what point will that prove? Even if they turn out well, they weren't that good when EJ was there.

It's like saying Calvin Johnson was the same player as a sophomore as he was as a junior. Not even close.

[Ozymandius]

I would've rather had EJ star against Florida forcing us to take him at #8 than have him struggle in that game.

[Last Guy on the Bench]

I would've rather had EJ star against Florida forcing us to take him at #8 than have him struggle in that game.

 

My point was that if EJ rocked it against Florida, he might not even have been there at 8.

[eball]

Getting back to the original premise of this thread...I think it's fair to say if EJ turns into the QB we all hope, we can certainly look back at the Florida tape and thank the Gators for whooping up on FSU so the 3-4 teams in front of us who could have pulled the trigger on EJ had second thoughts.

 

And FWIW, EJ didn't look "terrible" in this game if you ask me; he made a few mistakes, but he also made some plays and his defense completely let him down. If you're a "top" defense you don't give up nearly 400 yards at home.

[JohnC]

Ummm...

 

Your research does show that I said he is incompent. So I stand corrected. Even with the correction (I appreciate the research) my position on him still stands that he as a GM is very ineffective. Am I being harsh in my judgment on him? Absolutely. However, I don't consider my assessment of his performance as being unfair. He is the person who is responsible for the drafts, free agency, HC hires, contracts etc. I'm aware that running a football operation is a collaborative effort. But he is the one who ultimately makes the decisions and signs off.

 

What intensifies my view of him as a GM is that he followed the Levy/Brandon era. He had to clean up three years of poor decisons. After another three years of his stewardship how much more is the roster advanced and how much more could it have been advanced with someone more accomplished running the football operation?

 

As I pointed out in the prior post during the same three year period GMs for the Redskins and Seahawks dramatically changed the fortunes of their franchises while the Bills continued on with their legacy of mediocrity. Who is most responsible?

 

Clearly you are irritiated with the repetitive nature of the Nix criticism. There is a good reason why he is the focus of my attention: He is the most influential person in this long-term struggling franchise. If he isn't the most responsible person then who is? If you consider my posting trolling then you are entitled to your opinion.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Maybe because they're young? The Wrs were Sophs and Jrs. CB, it really shows how little you know about CFB but I'd expect that from a D3 player.

 

Haha. Dude, you had as much chance to go pro as I did. Do you really wanna compare what schools we graduated from?

 

Just take your medicine & send me my beer. Sorry, your pimping of Clausen definitely clouds your judgement as a qb expert. Btw, I don't think I've seen one person claim that Manuel was a sure fire star qb.

[GG]

Clearly you are irritiated with the repetitive nature of the Nix criticism. There is a good reason why he is the focus of my attention: He is the most influential person in this long-term struggling franchise. If he isn't the most responsible person then who is?

 

Have you looked in the Gross Pointe telephone directory for the answer?

[Ramius]

Here's a few notes, addressed at the ridiculous arguments of both JohnC's.

 

Regarding WR talent: The WR corps is in the midst of a renaissance. In 2011, they struggled with drops, and had lots of young players on the roster. The senior leaders were decent college players, but not great. Burt Reed was a UDFA last year, and Rodney Smith was a UDFA this year. The talent is really starting to blossom, with, Rashard Green leading the way. He should be a high draft pick in a year or 2 when he declares. There's other young talent that has played well at times too. The corps improved quite a bit from 2011-2012, but should improve much more this season. The TE position is largely unimpactful in the passing game. The WRs have a chance to be very good, but EJ will have gotten to play with them when they were young and ascending, not at their best.

 

And John, if you are such a wealth of college football knowledge, you'd know full well that star rankings for recruits usually mean very little in the grand scheme of things. Ranking HS players is an even bigger crap shoot than ranking college guys for the draft.

 

Regarding the "basically a 4 year starter" comments: This is a lie and is patently false. EJ started 4 games as a freshman and 3 as a sophomore, both in place of an injured Christian Ponder, before starting 25 in his final 2 years. So he got half a season's worth of starts spread over his first 2 seasons. That's most definitely not "basically a 4 year starter."

 

Regarding the NC St game: Jimbo Fisher has since come out and put the blame on himself for losing that game, faulting his ultra-conservative play-calling in the second half. EJ didn't play great, but Jimbo spent the second half playing run-run-pass-punt and trying to sit on the lead. You can't "lead your team to a win" when the coach refuses to call your normal offense. Also of note: Jimbo refused to let Hopkins try a 51 yarder that would have made the score 19-10 in the 4th. The offense allowed a blocked punt which gave NC St the ball on our 35 to set up the game winning drive. The defense allowed 3 4th down conversions on the final scoring drive for NC St.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Ramius

[JohnC]

Have you looked in the Gross Pointe telephone directory for the answer?

 

The owner is not involved in the operation any longer. If you think I have not been critical of the owner in the past you are very mistaken.

 

Here's a few notes, addressed at the ridiculous arguments of both JohnC's.

 

What do you specifically disagree with regarding my position that Nix has done a poor job as a GM in his first three years?

[Doc]

Here's a few notes, addressed at the ridiculous arguments of both JohnC's.

 

Regarding WR talent: The WR corps is in the midst of a renaissance. In 2011, they struggled with drops, and had lots of young players on the roster. The senior leaders were decent college players, but not great. Burt Reed was a UDFA last year, and Rodney Smith was a UDFA this year. The talent is really starting to blossom, with, Rashard Green leading the way. He should be a high draft pick in a year or 2 when he declares. There's other young talent that has played well at times too. The corps improved quite a bit from 2011-2012, but should improve much more this season. The TE position is largely unimpactful in the passing game. The WRs have a chance to be very good, but EJ will have gotten to play with them when they were young and ascending, not at their best.

 

And John, if you are such a wealth of college football knowledge, you'd know full well that star rankings for recruits usually mean very little in the grand scheme of things. Ranking HS players is an even bigger crap shoot than ranking college guys for the draft.

 

Regarding the "basically a 4 year starter" comments: This is a lie and is patently false. EJ started 4 games as a freshman and 3 as a sophomore, both in place of an injured Christian Ponder, before starting 25 in his final 2 years. So he got half a season's worth of starts spread over his first 3 seasons. That's most definitely not "basically a 4 year starter."

 

Regarding the NC St game: Jimbo Fisher has since come out and put the blame on himself for losing that game, faulting his ultra-conservative play-calling in the second half. EJ didn't play great, but Jimbo spent the second half playing run-run-pass-punt and trying to sit on the lead. You can't "lead your team to a win" when the coach refuses to call your normal offense. Also of note: Jimbo refused to let Hopkins try a 51 yarder that would have made the score 19-10 in the 4th. The offense allowed a blocked punt which gave NC St the ball on our 35 to set up the game winning drive. The defense allowed 3 4th down conversions on the final scoring drive for NC St.

Reading the play-by-plays of several games, it seemed like pass-run-run-punt happened a lot.

[GG]

The owner is not involved in the operation any longer. If you think I have not been critical of the owner in the past you are very mistaken.

 

Considering you named Nix for the long term struggles of the franchise, the blame is higher than him. In a nutshell, how did Nix get the job he wasn't qualified for in the first place?

[mannc]

No, I was precisely right. There were only three players over 500 yards. You said there were four. I said two of them were just over 500, that was Shaw and Smith, at 532 and 524, and one of them, was just under 500, which was Benjamin at 495. Are you so bad at this that you link stats to back up my point? That's hilarious.

 

I even linked the stats in my post.

Seems non-sensical to use WR statistics at FSU to argue that Manuel either is or is not a good QB, or will or will not succeed in the NFL. If the receivers put up great numbers, wouldn't that be in large part because they had a good QB getting them the ball? And if they put up lousy numbers would that be in large part because their QB could not get them the ball? Or were they just not very talented in the first place? It's impossible to say and it is really a circular argument, by both of you.

[Doc]

Seems non-sensical to use WR statistics at FSU to argue that Manuel either is or is not a good QB, or will or will not succeed in the NFL. If the receivers put up great numbers, wouldn't that be in large part because they had a good QB getting them the ball? And if they put up lousy numbers would that be in large part because their QB could not get them the ball? Or were they just not very talented in the first place? It's impossible to say and it is really a circular argument, by both of you.

If Manuel had a poor completion percentage, you could reasonably make the argument that it was his fault the WRs didn't produce more. With a 68% completion rate and especially an 8.8 YPA, it argues more that the WRs were more of the problem.

[Kelly the Dog]

Seems non-sensical to use WR statistics at FSU to argue that Manuel either is or is not a good QB, or will or will not succeed in the NFL. If the receivers put up great numbers, wouldn't that be in large part because they had a good QB getting them the ball? And if they put up lousy numbers would that be in large part because their QB could not get them the ball? Or were they just not very talented in the first place? It's impossible to say and it is really a circular argument, by both of you.

Agreed. If you noticed, I wasn't ever really saying if they were good or bad, I was simply refuting facts, and laughing at ludicrous statements like all four starters could start on almost any team in the country.

[mannc]

If Manuel had a poor completion percentage, you could reasonably make the argument that it was his fault the WRs didn't produce more. With a 68% completion rate and especially an 8.8 YPA, it argues more that the WRs were more of the problem.

Very possible. One of the problems I have is that college statistics can be very misleading. Unlike in the NFL, teams around the country play schedules in which the talent level of their opponents can vary drastically. They might play in a poor conference, or a player might run up massive numbers in games against Div. 1 AA opponents. Except for the Florida game, I did not see FSU play last year. Given the school's historical recruiting record (and location), though, it's hard for me to believe that EJ was throwing to sub-standard receivers the past two years. Anything is possible, I suppose. There are a number of dedicated FSU followers on this board who saw EJ play extensively these past 4 years. I would put more faith in their opinions than I would the bare statistics.

Edited May 6, 2013 by mannc

[Doc]

Very possible. One of the problems I have is that college statistics can be very misleading. Unlike in the NFL, teams around the country play schedules in which the talent level of their opponents can vary drastically. They might play in a poor conference, or a player might run up massive numbers in games against Div. 1 AA opponents. Except for the Florida game, I did not see FSU play last year. Given the school's historical recruiting record (and location), though, it's hard for me to believe that EJ was throwing to sub-standard receivers the past two years. Anything is possible, I suppose. There are a number of dedicated FSU followers on this board who saw EJ play extensively these past 4 years. I would put more faith in their opinions than I would the bare statistics.

It seems that FSU fans put more stock in the Rivals.com high school rankings of their WRs than their actual production, or things like the inconsistent play of their OL, curious play-calling, lack of a TE, and their defense's epic fail against Florida. If you were to ask NFL teams if any WR on FSU was draft-worthy last year, the only guy whose name you'd hear is Greene, and at-best in the middle-rounds given his youth and inexperience. As I and others have said, FSU's WRs could be a great group...in time. But if the best you can come up with is "well, they're mostly 4- and 5-star recruits," then...

[John Cocktosten]

Haha. Dude, you had as much chance to go pro as I did. Do you really wanna compare what schools we graduated from?

 

Just take your medicine & send me my beer. Sorry, your pimping of Clausen definitely clouds your judgement as a qb expert. Btw, I don't think I've seen one person claim that Manuel was a sure fire star qb.

 

 

Well your school did cancel it's football program which is pretty sad. That's a tough one to overcome. UB is not terrible academically but BU is the real deal so you win there.

 

Your pimping of Dan LeFevour is much worse. Almost as bad as your self accountability.

 

I tried sending you your beer BTW. I never got a reply. PM me. Btw, do you really want to drink all that beer? I imagine you're pretty chubby and it's bathing suit season.

[Alaska Darin]

In light of the evidence that proves you completely wrong, you may want to retract this statement.

Anyone who says a QB has to win games "by themselves" can be automatically discounted.

[John Cocktosten]

Here's a few notes, addressed at the ridiculous arguments of both JohnC's.

 

Regarding WR talent: The WR corps is in the midst of a renaissance. In 2011, they struggled with drops, and had lots of young players on the roster. The senior leaders were decent college players, but not great. Burt Reed was a UDFA last year, and Rodney Smith was a UDFA this year. The talent is really starting to blossom, with, Rashard Green leading the way. He should be a high draft pick in a year or 2 when he declares. There's other young talent that has played well at times too. The corps improved quite a bit from 2011-2012, but should improve much more this season. The TE position is largely unimpactful in the passing game. The WRs have a chance to be very good, but EJ will have gotten to play with them when they were young and ascending, not at their best.

 

And John, if you are such a wealth of college football knowledge, you'd know full well that star rankings for recruits usually mean very little in the grand scheme of things. Ranking HS players is an even bigger crap shoot than ranking college guys for the draft.

 

Regarding the "basically a 4 year starter" comments: This is a lie and is patently false. EJ started 4 games as a freshman and 3 as a sophomore, both in place of an injured Christian Ponder, before starting 25 in his final 2 years. So he got half a season's worth of starts spread over his first 3 seasons. That's most definitely not "basically a 4 year starter."

 

Regarding the NC St game: Jimbo Fisher has since come out and put the blame on himself for losing that game, faulting his ultra-conservative play-calling in the second half. EJ didn't play great, but Jimbo spent the second half playing run-run-pass-punt and trying to sit on the lead. You can't "lead your team to a win" when the coach refuses to call your normal offense. Also of note: Jimbo refused to let Hopkins try a 51 yarder that would have made the score 19-10 in the 4th. The offense allowed a blocked punt which gave NC St the ball on our 35 to set up the game winning drive. The defense allowed 3 4th down conversions on the final scoring drive for NC St.

 

Recruiting rankings mean very little? Guess who's had the # 1 or 2 class nationally the 5 years. Bama.

 

Here some analysis. Man are you wrong. Don't worry though, you have company on this thread.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/21641769

 

I do think there is a HUGE difference between Florida 3 stars and every other states 3 stars for sure. But come on, LSU, UF, OU, FSU and so many more are at the top of recruiting rankings and polls. It's undeniable.

 

Did you expect Jimbo to throw EJ under the bus? Actually Jimbo threw the whole team under the bus after that game.

Edited May 7, 2013 by John Cocktosten

[Maury Ballstein]

I dedicate this to John C.

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...Bowl-highlights

 

He looks just fine. FSU WR's have been garbage for years. Anquan Boldin/Peter Warrick/Laverneus Coles types from FSU ain't advancing to the NFL much lately.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Ryan L Billz