Matt in KC Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 I agree. Donald Jones was too inconsistent, and David Nelson, while he has good hands, was also injury prone. Brad Smith's role has been all over the place on the offense, so it's hard to gauge him as a WR. Last year was Easley's first year that he was healthy, but we didn't get to see him hardly as a WR on the field. Graham struggled as a rookie, so it's too soon to pass judgment on him. How was he injury prone? He got nailed in the opener and missed the season with a knee injury. He played every other game for the Bills since college. I consider injury-prone to be the guys that get hurt or can't heal after no or little contact, more than just one time. I agree with all of that. I would only add that while they have similar speed, I think the Rogers just moves better on the field. Change of direction, stop/start, etc... He's just able to do more things with his speed than Woods is. That said, between the two I would put all of my money on Woods to be the better pro. I think the Woods just moves better off the field.
K D Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 other than the fact that hes fast and ran track, is there anything about his game that you specifically think is lacking? other than polishing up a little bit since he wasnt at 100% of college practices i assume. With the knock on track stars playing football - actually he seems to be pretty physical. A lot of it is a size thing. At 5'8" about a buck seventy I think he will be manhandled by bigger db's. They can bump him at the line and keep him from getting by and then use a safety over top if he goes deep. He's going to need to be physical at the next level. I think he needs to work on his hands and his route running. If he can get with Woods and learn from him that would be a benefit. Overall I just think some guys are players (like Austin or Welker) and can overcome their size limitations and some like Goodwin are just fast and that's it. Maybe more focus on football and completely cutting out track will help but I see him as a big question mark right now and not a 3rd rounder. Does anyone else think Graham + Goodwin seems kind of redundant?
Jerry Jabber Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 How was he injury prone? He got nailed in the opener and missed the season with a knee injury. He played every other game for the Bills since college. I consider injury-prone to be the guys that get hurt or can't heal after no or little contact, more than just one time. I think the Woods just moves better off the field. Between ending his rookie season on IR, and getting hurt in the season opener last season, I'd say that qualifies Nelson as being injury prone. I don't feel comfortable with Easley's health either as his first 2 seasons ended on IR.
K D Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 I agree with that. Goodwin is not likely to be a huge production guy and catch 70-80 passes. But that doesn't mean he can't be highly effective. This offense is going to be like the Saints offense where you had multiple players with multiple talents getting the ball spread out all over the field. Sometimes it was Colston, Henderson, Meachem, Lance Moore, Sproles, any of the three RBs, etc. I can see Goodwin being used like Sproles without getting nearly the number of touches (and not at all saying that Goodwin is or will be nearly as good). Rogers has a chance to be the #3 WR and have significant catches. His upside it bigger, but he has to prove it, and then continue to prove it. I'm giddy with the potential of these three rookies, especially the combination of them because they have such different games. But few rookie WRs make huge impacts early. Most it takes three years before they are good. We're probably expecting too much. I think they will try and get Goodwin involved as best as they can (screens, reverses, fades, special teams) but I don't think they will be as successful at is as you would hope from a 3rd round pick. He might get a couple nice plays in here and there. As a complementary player like that I would have wanted to get him later on. Thank god for the Rogers signing. He fills more of a need than Goodwin does
Matt in KC Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Between ending his rookie season on IR, and getting hurt in the season opener last season, I'd say that qualifies Nelson as being injury prone. I don't feel comfortable with Easley's health either as his first 2 seasons ended on IR. I don't think he went on IR his rookie season; he just missed the last game after taking a vicious shot to his ribs in a blow out loss to the Pats. I don't think that plus having a torn ACL two seasons later makes him injury prone, it just confirms that anyone can and will get hurt if hit hard enough and in sensitive areas. But whatever... I wish Nelson well, but likely will be too preoccupied with our own set of WRs to follow his progress on the Browns. It's going to be fun to watch Da'Rick and our other young receivers battle for a spot on the team and playing time!
26CornerBlitz Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 #17 in your Program: http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster/Da%27Rick-Rogers/62396a54-12a5-419d-90a7-1239fc76c05c
Koufax Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Does anyone else think Graham + Goodwin seems kind of redundant? They are certainly very similar, but I think that if they both prove to be in our top 3-4 receivers they can easily have one go deep taking a corner and bringing safety help, and have another in the slot using elusiveness on a short crossing route. And the attention that will have to get doesn't leave a lot of coverage for Stevie and Woods in four receiver sets, and Spiller out of the backfield. I like our offense with Stevie and Woods running precise intermediate possession routes with great hands and ball skills, while the fast guys spread the coverage and open things up for Spiller and EJ. But just as seventh round Stevie outplayed higher picks, I think there is a reasonable chance the topic of this thread could keep one of those early round picks off the field. Also don't forget that the uptempo offense can easily make use of rotating deep threats as the opposing defense gets worn down.
Nanker Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 I admire Pat Kirwin. He has a scale of measurement he calls his "explosion equation". It's the combination of a player's Bench Press Numbers, Vertical Leap, and Broad Jump. 70 is his magic number that defines an explosive athlete. It's an interesting way to look at players. Here's the raw numbers for the WRs in this year's crop of talent. TJ Moe - 26 - 36 - 10'0 = 72 total (Undrafted) Marcus Davis - 19 - 39.5 - 10'0 = 68.5 total (Undrafted) Markus Wheaton - 20 - 37 - 10' = 67 total Round 3 Pick 17 Steelers Mark Harrison - 17 - 38.5 - 10'9 = 66.4 total (Undrafted) Josh Boyce - 22 - 34 - 9'9 = 65.9 total Round 4 Pick 5 Pats* Chris Harper - 20 - 35.5 - 9'8 = 65.3 total Round 4 Pick 28 Seahawks Ryan Swope - 16 - 37 - 10'5 = 63.5 total 6th Round Pick 6 Cards Lanear Sampson - 20 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 62.61total (Undrafted) DaRick Rogers - 10 - 39.5 - 11'0 = 60.5 total (Undrafted) Ryan Spadola - 15 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 57.61 total (Undrafted) Robert Woods 14 - 33.5 - 9'9 = 57.4 total Round 2 - Pick 9 Bills Tyrone Goard - 10 - 36 - 10'3 = 56.3 total (Undrafted) Tavon Austin - 14 - 32 - 10'0 = 56 total 1st Round - Pick "8" Rams Corey Fuller - 12 - 31.5 - 10'0 = 53.5 total Round 6 - Pick 3 Lions
buffaloboyinATL Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 I admire Pat Kirwin. He has a scale of measurement he calls his "explosion equation". It's the combination of a player's Bench Press Numbers, Vertical Leap, and Broad Jump. 70 is his magic number that defines an explosive athlete. It's an interesting way to look at players. Here's the raw numbers for the WRs in this year's crop of talent. TJ Moe - 26 - 36 - 10'0 = 72 total (Undrafted) Marcus Davis - 19 - 39.5 - 10'0 = 68.5 total (Undrafted) Markus Wheaton - 20 - 37 - 10' = 67 total Round 3 Pick 17 Steelers Mark Harrison - 17 - 38.5 - 10'9 = 66.4 total (Undrafted) Josh Boyce - 22 - 34 - 9'9 = 65.9 total Round 4 Pick 5 Pats* Chris Harper - 20 - 35.5 - 9'8 = 65.3 total Round 4 Pick 28 Seahawks Ryan Swope - 16 - 37 - 10'5 = 63.5 total 6th Round Pick 6 Cards Lanear Sampson - 20 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 62.61total (Undrafted) DaRick Rogers - 10 - 39.5 - 11'0 = 60.5 total (Undrafted) Ryan Spadola - 15 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 57.61 total (Undrafted) Robert Woods 14 - 33.5 - 9'9 = 57.4 total Round 2 - Pick 9 Bills Tyrone Goard - 10 - 36 - 10'3 = 56.3 total (Undrafted) Tavon Austin - 14 - 32 - 10'0 = 56 total 1st Round - Pick "8" Rams Corey Fuller - 12 - 31.5 - 10'0 = 53.5 total Round 6 - Pick 3 Lions Does he say if he believes in any way that this relates to success on the field?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 I admire Pat Kirwin. He has a scale of measurement he calls his "explosion equation". It's the combination of a player's Bench Press Numbers, Vertical Leap, and Broad Jump. 70 is his magic number that defines an explosive athlete. It's an interesting way to look at players. Here's the raw numbers for the WRs in this year's crop of talent. TJ Moe - 26 - 36 - 10'0 = 72 total (Undrafted) Marcus Davis - 19 - 39.5 - 10'0 = 68.5 total (Undrafted) Markus Wheaton - 20 - 37 - 10' = 67 total Round 3 Pick 17 Steelers Mark Harrison - 17 - 38.5 - 10'9 = 66.4 total (Undrafted) Josh Boyce - 22 - 34 - 9'9 = 65.9 total Round 4 Pick 5 Pats* Chris Harper - 20 - 35.5 - 9'8 = 65.3 total Round 4 Pick 28 Seahawks Ryan Swope - 16 - 37 - 10'5 = 63.5 total 6th Round Pick 6 Cards Lanear Sampson - 20 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 62.61total (Undrafted) DaRick Rogers - 10 - 39.5 - 11'0 = 60.5 total (Undrafted) Ryan Spadola - 15 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 57.61 total (Undrafted) Robert Woods 14 - 33.5 - 9'9 = 57.4 total Round 2 - Pick 9 Bills Tyrone Goard - 10 - 36 - 10'3 = 56.3 total (Undrafted) Tavon Austin - 14 - 32 - 10'0 = 56 total 1st Round - Pick "8" Rams Corey Fuller - 12 - 31.5 - 10'0 = 53.5 total Round 6 - Pick 3 Lions You forgot to put Marquis Goodwin in there. Marquis Goodwin - 13 reps - 42" vertical (at his pro day) - 11' broad jump = 66.0 That ranks Marquis 5th among all receivers in the class and considerably higher than Rogers and Woods, and much higher than Tavon Austin. He's also 9 pounds heavier than Austin. Somehow I don't think Goodwin will have any problems with press coverage.
billrooter Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 A lot of it is a size thing. At 5'8" about a buck seventy I think he will be manhandled by bigger db's. They can bump him at the line and keep him from getting by and then use a safety over top if he goes deep. He's going to need to be physical at the next level. I think he needs to work on his hands and his route running. If he can get with Woods and learn from him that would be a benefit. Overall I just think some guys are players (like Austin or Welker) and can overcome their size limitations and some like Goodwin are just fast and that's it. Maybe more focus on football and completely cutting out track will help but I see him as a big question mark right now and not a 3rd rounder. Does anyone else think Graham + Goodwin seems kind of redundant? While I agree that me may have very well been a reach, He's actually 5'8 7/8's and 183 lbs. and I have read that he is a very good blocker, so you may not be giving the guy enough credit for his ability to handle contact.
....lybob Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) I admire Pat Kirwin. He has a scale of measurement he calls his "explosion equation". It's the combination of a player's Bench Press Numbers, Vertical Leap, and Broad Jump. 70 is his magic number that defines an explosive athlete. It's an interesting way to look at players. Here's the raw numbers for the WRs in this year's crop of talent. TJ Moe - 26 - 36 - 10'0 = 72 total (Undrafted) Marcus Davis - 19 - 39.5 - 10'0 = 68.5 total (Undrafted) Markus Wheaton - 20 - 37 - 10' = 67 total Round 3 Pick 17 Steelers Mark Harrison - 17 - 38.5 - 10'9 = 66.4 total (Undrafted) Josh Boyce - 22 - 34 - 9'9 = 65.9 total Round 4 Pick 5 Pats* Chris Harper - 20 - 35.5 - 9'8 = 65.3 total Round 4 Pick 28 Seahawks Ryan Swope - 16 - 37 - 10'5 = 63.5 total 6th Round Pick 6 Cards Lanear Sampson - 20 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 62.61total (Undrafted) DaRick Rogers - 10 - 39.5 - 11'0 = 60.5 total (Undrafted) Ryan Spadola - 15 - 33.5 - 9'11 = 57.61 total (Undrafted) Robert Woods 14 - 33.5 - 9'9 = 57.4 total Round 2 - Pick 9 Bills Tyrone Goard - 10 - 36 - 10'3 = 56.3 total (Undrafted) Tavon Austin - 14 - 32 - 10'0 = 56 total 1st Round - Pick "8" Rams Corey Fuller - 12 - 31.5 - 10'0 = 53.5 total Round 6 - Pick 3 Lions over weights bench press under weights broad jump especially for WRs- in three months of hard work I could double DaRich's bench press reps, no ones adding more than 10%-15% to their vertical jumps Edited May 4, 2013 by ....lybob
bbb Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 So will this be our receiving corps next year?: Stevie, Da' Rick, the two rookies, TJ and Easley? A lot of potential, if so.
Lurker Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 Does anyone else think Graham + Goodwin seems kind of redundant? No, I see two different guys, with one thing in common. Goodwin seems much more shifty (almost RB-like) and athletic, while Graham's more straight line-ish. TJ could be the "over the top" guy, while Marquise would be an underneath weapon...
K D Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 They are certainly very similar, but I think that if they both prove to be in our top 3-4 receivers they can easily have one go deep taking a corner and bringing safety help, and have another in the slot using elusiveness on a short crossing route. And the attention that will have to get doesn't leave a lot of coverage for Stevie and Woods in four receiver sets, and Spiller out of the backfield. I like our offense with Stevie and Woods running precise intermediate possession routes with great hands and ball skills, while the fast guys spread the coverage and open things up for Spiller and EJ. But just as seventh round Stevie outplayed higher picks, I think there is a reasonable chance the topic of this thread could keep one of those early round picks off the field. Also don't forget that the uptempo offense can easily make use of rotating deep threats as the opposing defense gets worn down. I do agree that if we can stretch the field it's going to open up a lot for the running game and underneath throws. It will be interesting to see how they use them
Nanker Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 You forgot to put Marquis Goodwin in there. Marquis Goodwin - 13 reps - 42" vertical (at his pro day) - 11' broad jump = 66.0 That ranks Marquis 5th among all receivers in the class and considerably higher than Rogers and Woods, and much higher than Tavon Austin. He's also 9 pounds heavier than Austin. Somehow I don't think Goodwin will have any problems with press coverage. He wasn't on the list - probably because what I was working from was only the Combine numbers. However you want to put it - The Bills did very well in acquiring building blocks for a strong, fast receiving corps. over weights bench press under weights broad jump especially for WRs- in three months of hard work I could double DaRich's bench press reps, no ones adding more than 10%-15% to their vertical jumps Absolutely. Kirwin's looking at all players, so the wideouts have the impact of their other measurables reduced somewhat by the bench press numbers. Agreed, that is the one area with great leverage to improve the total score that can be improved upon by training. What Kirwin says is a player that totals over 70 points in those three areas has to be looked at in the Draft for his "explosiveness" alone.
buffaloboyinATL Posted May 4, 2013 Posted May 4, 2013 Goodwin seems much more shifty (almost RB-like) and athletic I agree with this assessment. In his highlight reel, it seemed that he had more sweeps, reverses and runs than he did receptions. A good dual threat for our Offense.
Nanker Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Our new kicker posts a 63.3 20 reps, 33.5" vertical and 9'8 broad jump.
EasternOHBillsFan Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 DaRick Rogers - 10 - 39.5 - 11'0 = 60.5 total (Undrafted) Screw the bench press... those vertical jump and broad jump numbers are INSANE! We stole him if he gets his act together! Good gravy!
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