Poll: Grade Draft, EJ Manuel Question

[Lurker]

For those still continually trashing EJ, read this...

http://espn.go.com/b...-in-first-round

 

I love how these analyses come out AFTER the draft.

 

I sometimes wonder if agent-involvement might be 'coloring' (as in green) some of the group-think that goes on leading up to draft day...

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I hope you are not making your opinions off of highlight reels, which obviously only show the good plays.

 

Not to worry. I'm not an idiot.

 

I watch condensed versions of complete games on Draft Breakdown, a site I've been linking to and propping up for the last 4 months. Actually for the last 16 months.

 

I don't think Pettine had even the slightest bit of intel on who the Jets wanted though.

 

It's been documented that the Bills knew the Jets wanted Tavon Austin at #9. Why would they not know that the Jets were high on Manuel?

 

For one thing Manuel said it himself before the draft and as Manish Mehta has shown, the Jets are a very leaky, loose-lipped organization. They have a mole (or two) inside who constantly give away news before it happens. Nothing the Jets do is a surprise and none of the Jets opinions are secrets.

 

All you have to do is read the sports stories from New York to know what the Jets are about to do so I have to disagree with you Turbo.

 

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying San Jose

 

(Barkley , Geno and Nassib probably have a higher ceiling then Travis Jackson)

 

Gotcha. Sorry.

 

I'll disagree on Barkley though.

 

The two things I harped on repeatedly before the draft was that EJ Manuel was the best quarterback prospect in the draft and that Matt Barkley's epically weak arm makes him nearly undraftable. This was an opinion that came after watching every single game Barkley played in his great season of 2011. There were reports that some teams actually took Barkley off of their boards.

 

I'll stand firmly by my opinions on both players.

[Donald Duck]

Not to worry. I'm not an idiot.

 

I watch condensed versions of complete games on Draft Breakdown, a site I've been linking to and propping up for the last 4 months. Actually for the last 16 months.

 

 

 

It's been documented that the Bills knew the Jets wanted Tavon Austin at #9. Why would they not know that the Jets were high on Manuel?

 

For one thing Manuel said it himself before the draft and as Manish Mehta has shown, the Jets are a very leaky, loose-lipped organization. They have a mole (or two) inside who constantly give away news before it happens. Nothing the Jets do is a surprise and none of the Jets opinions are secrets.

 

All you have to do is read the sports stories from New York to know what the Jets are about to do so I have to disagree with you Turbo.

 

 

 

Gotcha. Sorry.

 

I'll disagree on Barkley though.

 

The two things I harped on repeatedly before the draft was that EJ Manuel was the best quarterback prospect in the draft and that Matt Barkley's epically weak arm makes him nearly undraftable. This was an opinion that came after watching every single game Barkley played in his great season of 2011. There were reports that some teams actually took Barkley off of their boards.

 

I'll stand firmly by my opinions on both players.

 

I also questioned barkleys arm strength,

 

Damond Talbot just gave me a good run down on why the Buffalo Bills wanted manuel and I came away from the discussion impressed

[Uncle Monkeyhead]

Interesting piece....funny how these guys changed their minds a little the closer they got to, during, and after the draft. The praise was there earlier for EJM. Sundquist says he feels like he's been watching a different tape than everyone else....I'm willing to bet the others are pretty much basing their opinions off the mainstream at any given point in time.

 

http://youtu.be/32uWlrEOzYs

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Interesting piece....funny how these guys changed their minds a little the closer they got to, during, and after the draft. The praise was there earlier for EJM. Sundquist says he feels like he's been watching a different tape than everyone else....I'm willing to bet the others are pretty much basing their opinions off the mainstream at any given point in time.

 

http://youtu.be/32uWlrEOzYs

 

Good discussion and debate on EJ3. Nice find UMH.

[Bills4]

I gave the Bills' draft a D. Below is my reasoning.

 

1. E.J. Manuel. Like Losman, Manuel has great physical tools. Also like Losman, Manuel did nothing in college to demonstrate he could handle the mental complexity associated with NFL offenses. On the contrary: even though his college offense was very simple, he still struggled with pocket awareness. If he doesn't have the bandwidth to handle a simple offense + pocket awareness, how is he supposed to handle the NFL?

 

This pick hurts us twice. First, the pick itself has been squandered. Secondly and more importantly, the Bills are very unlikely to do much of anything at the QB position as long as they're deluding themselves into thinking Manuel is the answer. They even passed on Nassib and Barkley in the third!

 

2a. Robert Woods. A good pick.

 

2b. Kiko Alonso. The Bills chose him significantly higher than where the consensus had him slotted. This is not the first time the Bills have taken a player much earlier than he was slotted. Previous examples include Donte Whitner, Torrell Troup, and T.J. Graham.

 

3. Marquise Goodwin, WR. I have nothing against Goodwin as a player. But the Bills had already addressed the WR position with Woods; plus they had Johnson and Easley on the roster. Spiller and Chandler can also be used as receiving threats. Maybe "luxury pick" is too strong a phrase to describe this selection. But going into the third round, the Bills had a decent stock of talent at WR, and nothing at all at QB. That being the case, why not take Barkley? Even if there's a 70% chance his arm will never recover, a 20 - 30% chance of getting a franchise QB is well worth the use of a third round pick!

 

Its just so easy to be negative, isnt it? Why not hope for the best? You have plenty of time to complain about it if this draft doesnt work out. But for now, why wouldnt you hope that it works and have positive thoughts? Save the negative energy for the Jets and and Pats.

[Baba Booey]

I gave the draft a C+ to B-, which is a drastic upgrade from former coach and staff. I did like some things we did with taking a risk on Manuel, but its really not a risk with the new 1st round pay scale. We pick up Woods in the second and Alonso with trade back for our other second. Alonso is an animal and dominated on D which helped Jordan get great grades. Goodwin really made an impression at the Senior Bowl this year and can flat out fly!!!(Stretch the D). I did love the Duke Williams pick also but was confused by going with another Safety in the fifth. I understand the pick of the kicker, Lindell getting long in the tooth and not very long on the field. I did like the last pick at Tight End but thiought we should have addressed this earlier in the draft, don't know how Chandler is going to be. But to top off signing UDFA Da'Rick Rogers and the guard from Cuse was big, and I also like the signing of QB from Wash St. I do feel we could have done better but what a great start to Marrone era in the draft. I was very pleased!!!

[Orton's Arm]

I love how these analyses come out AFTER the draft.

 

I sometimes wonder if agent-involvement might be 'coloring' (as in green) some of the group-think that goes on leading up to draft day...

The most important element of the article in question is the one subject it did not discuss: that of Manuel's ability to process on-field information.

 

A few years ago, Gailey chose Trent Edwards as the starter over Ryan Fitzpatrick. At the time, this was portrayed as a sign that Gailey was foolish. But there were a number of points in Edwards' favor. He had better physical tools than Fitzpatrick, including a stronger arm. He was more accurate than Fitzpatrick. As for the mental processing stuff--Edwards had gone to Stanford, and had a recommendation from Bill Walsh. Unlike many other schools with division 1 football, Stanford does not lower its admissions standards for athletes on scholarships. So you'd think he'd have the mental aspects of the game covered; which together with his other attributes would have given him a clear advantage over Fitzpatrick.

 

But no. For whatever reason, Edwards seemed mentally unprepared to take advantage of opportunities to throw the ball downfield. Edwards' attitude seemed to be, "I am not fully aware of whatever opportunities may or may not exist downfield; or how to best take advantage of them. I don't know how much time I do or don't have before pressure arrives from my blindside. Given all this uncertainty, why not play it safe by dumping the ball off to my RB?" Losman also had an inability to keep track of all 22 guys on the football field. His way of dealing with the resulting uncertainty was to go into backyard ball mode, improvising on the fly.

 

As others have noted, Manuel's college offense was simplified. He wasn't asked to make more than 2 reads. Even with that, he struggled with pocket awareness. Will he succeed where Edwards and Losman failed? Will he do a better job of keeping track of all 22 guys on the field than Edwards and Losman had been able to?

Edited May 1, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[Trader]

For those still continually trashing EJ, read this...

http://espn.go.com/b...-in-first-round

 

As for the comparisons to Losman, they are nothing but sheer laziness, perpetuated by those posters with an axe to grind and those rooting for EJ to fail already. The similarities between Losman and EJ start and end at a big arm. EJ is smart, accurate, can move around, has a lightning quick release, is a great leader, and most importantly, his intangibles are through the roof.

 

And yes, i have watched every single game EJ has played. I live here in Tallahassee.

 

Ej is also 26 and 6 or something like that and Losman played on loosing teams. EJ was Senior bowl MVP and won multiple bowl games.also.

[thewildrabbit]

The most important element of the article in question is the one subject it did not discuss: that of Manuel's ability to process on-field information.

 

A few years ago, Gailey chose Trent Edwards as the starter over Ryan Fitzpatrick. At the time, this was portrayed as a sign that Gailey was foolish. But there were a number of points in Edwards' favor. He had better physical tools than Fitzpatrick, including a stronger arm. He was more accurate than Fitzpatrick. As for the mental processing stuff--Edwards had gone to Stanford, and had a recommendation from Bill Walsh. Unlike many other schools with division 1 football, Stanford does not lower its admissions standards for athletes on scholarships. So you'd think he'd have the mental aspects of the game covered; which together with his other attributes would have given him a clear advantage over Fitzpatrick.

 

But no. For whatever reason, Edwards seemed mentally unprepared to take advantage of opportunities to throw the ball downfield. Edwards' attitude seemed to be, "I am not fully aware of whatever opportunities may or may not exist downfield; or how to best take advantage of them. I don't know how much time I do or don't have before pressure arrives from my blindside. Given all this uncertainty, why not play it safe by dumping the ball off to my RB?" Losman also had an inability to keep track of all 22 guys on the football field. His way of dealing with the resulting uncertainty was to go into backyard ball mode, improvising on the fly.

 

As others have noted, Manuel's college offense was simplified. He wasn't asked to make more than 2 reads. Even with that, he struggled with pocket awareness. Will he succeed where Edwards and Losman failed? Will he do a better job of keeping track of all 22 guys on the field than Edwards and Losman had been able to?

The thing that stood out with me with Trent Edwards is that he didn't throw a lot of INT's, usually didn't try and force the ball into tight windows. (which is why we all loved Fitz at first) My take is he didn't trust in his receivers for the down field throws, and now looking at how the Bills (Marrone) jettisoned all the starters except Stevie Johnson, which is telling me they weren't as good as everyone else thought they were. (Gailey)

 

Its my take that both Losman and Edwards failed because of that craptastic O line they were forced to play behind. Particularly with that 5-7 step drop offense under Jauron. Then in 2010 FA RT Cornell Green really helped Edwards look horrible in those first two games. The Bills started 0-8 that year, they benched Green after week 5, and then cut him week 8, Fitz was running for his life all those games.

 

The Bills, even when they find a decent player like Levitre who had never missed a game to injury like so many of his teammates, they let him walk. If that wasn't bad enough, then they don't replace him in the draft. It took 3-4 years to replace all pro LT Jason Peters with a guy better suited to play RT or OG. Now this year they start the season with a lineup of maybes, maybe they last the season, maybe they don't. Who knows if any of them will finish the season.

 

Anyway, Marrone and Hackett will have their work cut out for them making a decent offense with 2 decent linemen out of 5. JMO

[San Jose Bills Fan]

As others have noted, Manuel's college offense was simplified. He wasn't asked to make more than 2 reads. Even with that, he struggled with pocket awareness. Will he succeed where Edwards and Losman failed? Will he do a better job of keeping track of all 22 guys on the field than Edwards and Losman had been able to?

 

From all the video I've watched on Manuel, I don't think he struggled with pocket awareness.

 

I thought he was very aware, knew where the rush was coming from and how much time he had, was never jittery, rarely bailed prematurely, climbed the ladder well, dipped his shoulder and got small when he had to and chose his run opportunities well.

 

Now we can engage in dueling scouting reports and I'm sure that for every report you cite, I can find a contradicting one. It's a pointless polemic.

 

We might as well argue about global warming.

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Boludo]

kiper is just bitter he missed so horribly on his predictions

 

the bills needed a QB, they had their choice of the class, and got their guy

[thebandit27]

The thing that stood out with me with Trent Edwards is that he didn't throw a lot of INT's, usually didn't try and force the ball into tight windows. (which is why we all loved Fitz at first) My take is he didn't trust in his receivers for the down field throws, and now looking at how the Bills (Marrone) jettisoned all the starters except Stevie Johnson, which is telling me they weren't as good as everyone else thought they were. (Gailey)

 

Its my take that both Losman and Edwards failed because of that craptastic O line they were forced to play behind. Particularly with that 5-7 step drop offense under Jauron. Then in 2010 FA RT Cornell Green really helped Edwards look horrible in those first two games. The Bills started 0-8 that year, they benched Green after week 5, and then cut him week 8, Fitz was running for his life all those games.

 

The Bills, even when they find a decent player like Levitre who had never missed a game to injury like so many of his teammates, they let him walk. If that wasn't bad enough, then they don't replace him in the draft. It took 3-4 years to replace all pro LT Jason Peters with a guy better suited to play RT or OG. Now this year they start the season with a lineup of maybes, maybe they last the season, maybe they don't. Who knows if any of them will finish the season.

 

Anyway, Marrone and Hackett will have their work cut out for them making a decent offense with 2 decent linemen out of 5. JMO

 

You cannot be serious...I know Fitz wasn't great, but look at his performance behind the exact same OL in 2009 in comparison to Edwards and you'll have your answer.

 

You seem to think the entirety of the game of football is based on OL play....it isn't. At some point, the QB is responsible for his own play, and those 2 guys were lousy; no two ways about it.

 

And I wholly disagree that Glenn is more suited to play G or RT. He played well as a rookie LT, in only his second season at the position. The Bills have at least 3 quality OLmen starting in Glenn, Wood, and Urbik. When healthy, Pears played well and Hairston is a decent backup. LG is the only question mark on that line, and I'd like to think that Marrone has a plan at that spot.

[Mr. WEO]

Not to worry. I'm not an idiot.

 

I watch condensed versions of complete games on Draft Breakdown, a site I've been linking to and propping up for the last 4 months. Actually for the last 16 months.

 

 

 

It's been documented that the Bills knew the Jets wanted Tavon Austin at #9. Why would they not know that the Jets were high on Manuel?

 

For one thing Manuel said it himself before the draft and as Manish Mehta has shown, the Jets are a very leaky, loose-lipped organization. They have a mole (or two) inside who constantly give away news before it happens. Nothing the Jets do is a surprise and none of the Jets opinions are secrets.

 

All you have to do is read the sports stories from New York to know what the Jets are about to do so I have to disagree with you Turbo.

 

 

 

Gotcha. Sorry.

 

I'll disagree on Barkley though.

 

The two things I harped on repeatedly before the draft was that EJ Manuel was the best quarterback prospect in the draft and that Matt Barkley's epically weak arm makes him nearly undraftable. This was an opinion that came after watching every single game Barkley played in his great season of 2011. There were reports that some teams actually took Barkley off of their boards.

 

I'll stand firmly by my opinions on both players.

 

Barkley's arm is so weak some teams thought he was undraftable?

 

I have to admit, I saw much more of Barkley's games on TV than EJ, particularly Barkley's junior season, in which he looked really good. I think it's easy to fall into the same trap of believing certain things repeated about a player as you say others are about EJ's reported struggles reading the D/progressions/etc.

 

Did anyone (mocker, scout) have EJ going as the first QB in the draft?

[Donald Duck]

Barkley's arm is so weak some teams thought he was undraftable?

 

I have to admit, I saw much more of Barkley's games on TV than EJ, particularly Barkley's junior season, in which he looked really good. I think it's easy to fall into the same trap of believing certain things repeated about a player as you say others are about EJ's reported struggles reading the D/progressions/etc.

 

Did anyone (mocker, scout) have EJ going as the first QB in the draft?

 

 

Lack of sufficient arm strength is fairly obvious though Weo, vs pocket awareness, trouble reading defenses or going through progressions, which by the way does not appear to be the case from what I've seen so far on Manuel.

 

EJ Manuels ability to throw on the run with accuracy is one of his biggest attributes. EJ's accurate rolling left (70% completion), accurate rolling right (68%) and has an 80% completion rate on anything over 20 yards.

Edited May 1, 2013 by dog14787

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Here is a link I read today with a summary of draft grades

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/2013-Buffalo-Bills-draft-grades/48d91e93-0a29-483f-ab4d-abb2c42f8a1b

 

Can someone explain what Nailed It means?

[tennesseeboy]

I gave it a C grade, but I have to admit that this was a gutsy draft and that the Bills are to be commended for going where their own analysis took them. They obviously felt that Manuel was not only the best qb of the draft but that he was significantly better than the other "top five" qb's. Trading down was good, and I can see that further trades down might have been risky.

 

My reservation? Manuel sounds a little too much like Losman-all the tools but slow eyes and inability to react to the speed of the NFL. Obviously the Bills coach and GM disagree and I hope they are right.

 

The other picks look ok to good.

[Orton's Arm]

From all the video I've watched on Manuel, I don't think he struggled with pocket awareness.

 

I thought he was very aware, knew where the rush was coming from and how much time he had, was never jittery, rarely bailed prematurely, climbed the ladder well, dipped his shoulder and got small when he had to and chose his run opportunities well.

 

Now we can engage in dueling scouting reports and I'm sure that for every report you cite, I can find a contradicting one. It's a pointless polemic.

 

We might as well argue about global warming.

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

If after watching a lot of Manuel's games you concluded he has good pocket awareness, there's a good chance you're right. If you are right, that would take one of my concerns off the table. A QB with good pocket awareness can get rid of the ball quickly when pass protection isn't there; while holding onto the ball/letting downfield plays develop when it is. A QB who lacks that awareness can't do that. Instead, he might decide to adopt a Rob Johnson strategy; holding onto the ball for long periods of time whether the pass protection is there or not. Or he might decide to go for a Trent Edwards strategy; dumping the ball off short even when he could have gone downfield.

 

But even assuming you're right about Manuel's pocket awareness, I'm still not happy about his simplified, 1 - 2 read college offense.

[Bill from NYC]

If after watching a lot of Manuel's games you concluded he has good pocket awareness, there's a good chance you're right. If you are right, that would take one of my concerns off the table. A QB with good pocket awareness can get rid of the ball quickly when pass protection isn't there; while holding onto the ball/letting downfield plays develop when it is. A QB who lacks that awareness can't do that. Instead, he might decide to adopt a Rob Johnson strategy; holding onto the ball for long periods of time whether the pass protection is there or not. Or he might decide to go for a Trent Edwards strategy; dumping the ball off short even when he could have gone downfield.

 

But even assuming you're right about Manuel's pocket awareness, I'm still not happy about his simplified, 1 - 2 read college offense.

I want to thank you for taking this courageous stand. Trust me, I know that it can be rough going against the grain here, but I appreciate the honest, and in your case intellectual dialogue.

For the record, I am a bit less concerned than you. Imo if we are going to miss, let's miss on a qb, or even a perhaps nutty linebacker. We have ben striking out and losing games by allocating our best resources to defensive backs and yes, running backs. Even when these guys are "good," we lose, and many fans just don't get this.

Keep the posts coming!!!

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

But even assuming you're right about Manuel's pocket awareness, I'm still not happy about his simplified, 1 - 2 read college offense.

 

Aaron Rodgers came from a sort of bubble screen system at Cal. I'm pretty sure his ability to read defenses and go through progressions was completely different coming out of school than it is now. Unlike arm strength, these are things that can be learned and practiced. Since EJ is an intelligent and hard-working kid, I see no reason why he shouldn't have the capacity to learn. He just needs to be well-coached.