1billsfan Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I do agree with this, and have said as much myself in other places. There are certain areas where Manuel seems to have a clear edge over Losman, there are also those few but important areas where there are similarities. EJ does appear to be smart, and have a good attitude. That alone is a good start. Like I said, for me this is all on Marrone. Manuel isn't plug and play, Marrone needs to coach him well, and design the offense around his strengths. I think that's what most of us are hoping for. I LOVE the fact that Bills loaded up on weapons offensively, to compliment the ones we already have. EJ will not have to do it all himself. The good thing is that no one is expecting "plug and play" with Manuel. If it happens fast, then great. But the expectation is that he needs some polishing be that six games or a year. Having all these weapons will provide much needed confidence for when he does finally take over. I am so relieved and excited that they drafted Manuel. I was nervous since there was so much talk and rumor of Nassib. They were even talking about Nassib to the Bills at #8 right up before our our pick! That drove me crazy.
Iraq Vet Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 If Kiper & Mayock hates it.... I feel better about the PICK
#34fan Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Everything about this season comes down to the final roster cut... Some of the guys people are touting will be OFF THIS ROSTER come September. All in all, we got ourselves some good talent in this draft. Still, I don't think we can grade it until we see who's left this fall, and what they're up to. So far, Marrone has rebuffed my cynicism by doing some really cool things. Now I'm focused on how he runs a camp, and his final roster decisions.
ChevyVanMiller Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) Funny thing about the draft downgrading is that most of the experts had the Bills taking Nassib or Barkley in the 1st and would have given them a much higher grade if they had. Yet, both of them lasted until the 4th round so if they had been taken in the 1st rd the Bills would have WAY overreached for them. Bottom line is that the Bills got the guy they wanted and f*ck Kiper and the rest of that lot. Edited April 30, 2013 by ChevyVanMiller
1billsfan Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Funny thing about the draft downgrading is that most of the experts had the Bills taking Nassib or Barkley in the 1st and would have given them a much higher grade if they had. yet, both of them lasted until the 4th round so they Bills would have WAY overreached for them. Bottom line is that the Bills got the guy they wanted and f*ck Kiper and the rest of that lot. This year's draft class made some of the national guys look pretty foolish. A few months ago, McShay scorched Nassib calling his arm "vastly overrated" only to vault him to his 2nd rated QB just before the draft…lol Few NFL teams are taking an unathletic QB high in the draft anymore. The game has changed. It doesn't mean that an unathletic guy can't make it. It's just a huge strike against you in what's probably the most athletic and physical sport on the planet.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 This year's draft class made some of the national guys look pretty foolish. A few months ago, McShay scorched Nassib calling his arm "vastly overrated" only to vault him to his 2nd rated QB just before the draft…lol Few NFL teams are taking an unathletic QB high in the draft anymore. The game has changed. It doesn't mean that an unathletic guy can't make it. It's just a huge strike against you in what's probably the most athletic and physical sport on the planet. There were a lot of reasons, to me, why the QB thing happened as it did, and all worked together. 1] They really weren't all that good. This was a bad class and the top guys had a lot of glaring weaknesses. In the end, Geno was probably a 2nd round pick. I thought Nassib would go higher but he has serious concerns. Barkley has a 4th round arm. Landry and Glennon are 3rd and 4th round kind of players with glaring weaknesses. 2] Because of this, the teams that needed QBs went out of their way to fill their starter position with stopgaps like Kolb, Palmer, Alex Smith, Flynn, etc, lessening the need to draft one high if you liked other players at different positions. 3] This draft was known for its strength in the top rounds, through round three. Pretty much everyone was saying there arent a lot of stars, but there are a ton of very good players in the first three rounds. In other years, the QBs would have gone higher. 4] Once they started to slide, like midway through the second round, I think some of the "if they weren't picked by someone by now maybe they know something we don't about these guys" which led to the freefall.
buffaloboyinATL Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Solid B for potential but could become an A if Manuel and others live up to their expectations.
Dorkington Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I think he will be at least "solid", and we've seen solid stick around here for a while, so no reason to suspect he would be replaced unless someone amazing comes along.
chris heff Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jp-losman-1.html http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ej-manuel-1.html Please stop comparing Losman to Manuel. The only things the have in common are strong arms and both drafted in the first round by the Bills.
Donald Duck Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) That's a very strange characterization of the situation (bolded) considering that Manuel is considered the QB with the highest ceiling in the draft. It's about the only thing that the overwhelming consensus agrees upon. I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying San Jose (Barkley , Geno and Nassib probably have a higher ceiling then Travis Jackson) Edited April 30, 2013 by dog14787
thewildrabbit Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 You do know that FSU plays a pro style offense, right? How many college QB's display or are exposed to pro style defense and they're complexities while ...still in college? FSU's offense is very complex, as a matter of fact he showed his flexibility and intelligence when the OC added different scheme's read-option formations mid season. He's accustom to hard coaching and a student of the game. I see absolutely NO CORRELATION between EJ and JP...Let's Go Bills!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^ This !!!! Thank you!!!! You can't make this Shesh Up... :wallbash: One report, "NFL sources who watch Florida State closely have told WalterFootball.com that Manuel is not a natural pocket passer. They don't feel he is as accurate as his completion percentage indicates. They went on to say that Manuel is frustrating to watch because he has all the makings to be a special quarterback, but is not utilizing his full potential. The scheme that the Seminoles run also came under criticism. The view is that it is extremely basic and does not have Manuel well-prepared to run an NFL offense. Our sources believe that Manuel too often looks to run when his first-read is covered rather than quickly looking to his second and third options. As a passer, Manuel needs to work on his touch passes. He occasionally puts nice air under a ball, but too often throws everything on a line. Manuel needs to become a passer rather than a thrower." http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013emanuel.php another scouting report, "For as smart as Manuel is, Florida State did not run a complex offense for him. Fisher designed a predicated read offense where Manuel could make decisions pre-snap with only one or two reads after the ball is snapped. Most of Florida State's route combinations were high-low reads that developed in front of Manuel's field of vision to one side. After his initial reads were covered, he either held onto the ball too long looking for something to come open, or he took off running. He didn't work through many progressions past the second receiver, he didn't call audibles, and has a lot to learn about running an NFL offense at tempo and making fast reads against disguised NFL coverages." "Manuel needs lots of time to grow into a quarterback. Right now, he's an athlete playing quarterback. He needs to go to a team with a stable front office and coaching situation where he can develop at a slower pace. He can't run a NFL offense right now without significantly watering down the offense, or tailoring the offense the way Fisher did at Florida State." another scouting report, WEAKNESSES: He has a tendency to force throws into coverage trying to make a play. His decision-making and field vision are suspect. He struggles to work through progressions and often takes off running too quickly. Manuel has some accuracy issues as well. Short throws are often low or wide and his deep ball accuracy is uneven, as well. Gets happy feet under pressure, spins to the outside to avoid the rush. Must step into his throws more consistently to fully utilize his arm strength. NFL COMPARISON: Blaine Gabbert, Jason Campbell/Terrelle Pryor, Josh Freeman. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/ej-manuel?id=2539228 http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/2/19/4003212/2013-nfl-draft-prospects-ej-manuel-scouting-profile-denver-broncos another report you guys will really hate, Mentally, Manuel is nowhere near ready to command an NFL offense. His lack of football IQ, and general failure to understand the deeper aspects of the game are very obvious. Manuel does not read or anticipate defenses well, waiting for receivers to get open instead of throwing them open, his passes are frequently late, he does not use his eyes well to look off defenders, and if his first target isn't open he almost always pulls it down to run. Manuel has a ton of talent and ability, but would be best suited to sit on the bench for at least a year to learn the intricacies of the game and be coached up. I view Manuel as a backup in the league, and wouldn't take him any higher than the fourth round, but he is likely to go somewhere between 25-50 on draft day. http://www.nfldraftgeek.com/ejmanuelscoutingreport.html A lot of scouts had EJ rated as a 3rd - 4th round pick before the Senior Bowl. His stock went up so high after the senior bowl because all the other QB's sucked so badly it made EJ look brilliant. "He completed 7-of-10 passes for 76 yards, one touchdown and one interception. He also had four carries for 10 yards and a touchdown." http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/51681/ej-manuel-stars-in-senior-bowl So before you guy canonize EJ, let's hope Doug Marrone brings him along carefully. Like I've stated many times, I like the player, just not where he was picked. From everything I've read on the guy he is not even close to being ready to start this year. Also, first round QB's are usually pushed into starting by their teams / fans. Edwards' Arm might just have a point about comparing EJ to JP in that if they rush him into a starting job, he might just end up shell shocked like JP.
thebandit27 Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Gave the Bills a B for addressing needs with great athletes. Not even the most critical of folks can deny that everyone the team drafted is among the most athletic at their position. I was one of the Manuel drum-beaters pre-draft, so obviously I'm happy with that pick, and I think that Woods/Alonso/William/Hopkins can all be impact guys as rookies. To me, that's a solid B.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I remember thinking, "Okay. The Bills got away with trading from #8 down to #16, without losing out on Barkley. Now only one last positive thing has to happen for me to be very happy." You're advocating taking someone with a Chad Pennington arm. While there's a chance Barkley's arm strength can get a little stronger, a Chad Pennington isn't going to suddenly morph into John Elway. Think of the quarterbacks that have won championships the last decade or so- Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Eli, Peyton, Flacco. Even those who had arm strength concerns coming out of school had significantly better arm strength than Barkley does now. You could say the same for the rest of the top QBs in the league now (Kaep, Luck, etc). At the same time you're lamenting "missing out" on a guy who doesn't currently have the physical tools to be a franchise quarterback and seems to have little chance of ever having them, you're condemning the Manuel choice based on what you perceive as his inabilities to go through progressions and to process information quickly. It seems like these things can be improved through repetition (experience) and proper NFL coaching. And by ALL accounts Manuel has the necessary intelligence and work ethic to make those improvements. What remains to be seen is whether we have the coaching, but based on their decision to draft a quarterback with the necessary upside at the expense of familiarity (Nassib), I'm feeling better about our coaches all the time.
thewildrabbit Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 YES! I watch a ton of FSU (simply because they are always on TV), and I agree with the above analysis 100%. I think EJ DOES have some potential...But unfortunately I see things that are very troubling to me. People in this thread have reacted as if they have been personally violated when EJ is compared to JP Losman, but the comparison is fair. JP Losman was physicall gifted, but was slow to read and react to defenses. If the first target wasn't open his instinct was to panic and run, often resulting in sacks or runs for no gain/loss. This defined JP IMO. I see those same traits in EJ, when the defense is giving him openings he looks great...but when the defense plays tight he panics and reverts to running, often resulting in bad plays. He doesn't make reads, if the first guy or 2 isn't open he takes off. I DO think EJ can succeed if he is in a properly coached system, that is really what he needs. He needs to be told what to do, and have bad habits broken. I think this is why he is often described as raw/needs polish. Personally I think JP could have succeeded if he was properly coached (he was not). I have a ton of faith in new HC Doug Marrone and OC Nathaniel Hackett. Moreso then I could ever have in HC Dick Jauron / OC's Turk Schonert, AVP. So yea, coaching should not be a problem with the new offense. My concerns are that Buddy Nix states the O line is fine. Most anyone who watched the Buffalo Bills play the last 3 years must know that simply isn't true. Not with losing three year starter at LG Andy Levitre 64 out of 64 games to Tenn in free agency.. Not with Eric Woods never finishing a season every year he has been in the league, missing 20 games along the way. Not with Eric Pears at RT who finished only one season out of his last four (2011). Not with backup RT Chris Hairston who played 13 games in 2011, 12 games in 2012. Not with Kraig Urbik who in his three years in the league has never played in all 16 games. Cordy Glenn only played in 14 games last year. So many injuries to so many players on that line, and they let the only guy who has been a solid starter in every game since being drafted walk away. This year was the year to grab a top O linemen in the draft, and yet the Bills ignored the line. I was hoping the Bills would at least replace Levitre in the draft as there was so much talent at OT, OG. Coaching only takes you so far in the NFL,gotta have talent, and if that O line stays the way it currently is...I don't have much faith in EJ developing properly.
Luxy312 Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 I give it a B, but it has the potential to be an "A". All depends on how Manuel comes along. A good friend of mine had a very interesting point that nobody is really bringing up. It's easy to say that Manuel should have been a 4th or 5th round pick and that Buffalo should have taken a different QB or waited. That's nice and all that we can follow what the scouts and guys like Kiper believe, but there's also a simple reality here. Nobody took another quarterback until round 2. Most QB's didn't even come off the board until round 4. Clearly, even other teams didn't have any of the other QB's rated all that high. So the question is this. Did Buffalo take the QB that was rated by others that high before they had a chance to? Smith was supposed to be first round value and went in the second. Nassib was supposed to be the second best QB and didn't go until the fourth. Whether another team would have picked him between the first and second round picks of the Bills, we'll never know. We do obviously know however that there wasn't another quarterback rated by any other team higher than Buffalo's second round pick. That may say something positive about Manuel.
Trader Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 The negative prognosticators led by Kiper and Pericso (sic) might be right, but.... they staked their reputations on a Bills failed draft. Kiper's, "bandwith"comments are really out of line he has nothing to substantiate that allegation. Terry Bradshaw was a slow developer but when he got it, he really got it. If the Bills are successful and I think they will be, perhaps not this year, Let's be sure to remember who was right and who was wrong. Kiper and others should be held accountable for their predictions just like a GM or a coach.
Ramius Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) For those still continually trashing EJ, read this... http://espn.go.com/b...-in-first-round As for the comparisons to Losman, they are nothing but sheer laziness, perpetuated by those posters with an axe to grind and those rooting for EJ to fail already. The similarities between Losman and EJ start and end at a big arm. EJ is smart, accurate, can move around, has a lightning quick release, is a great leader, and most importantly, his intangibles are through the roof. And yes, i have watched every single game EJ has played. I live here in Tallahassee. Edited April 30, 2013 by Ramius
Orton's Arm Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 You're advocating taking someone with a Chad Pennington arm. While there's a chance Barkley's arm strength can get a little stronger, a Chad Pennington isn't going to suddenly morph into John Elway. Think of the quarterbacks that have won championships the last decade or so- Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Eli, Peyton, Flacco. Even those who had arm strength concerns coming out of school had significantly better arm strength than Barkley does now. You could say the same for the rest of the top QBs in the league now (Kaep, Luck, etc). At the same time you're lamenting "missing out" on a guy who doesn't currently have the physical tools to be a franchise quarterback and seems to have little chance of ever having them, you're condemning the Manuel choice based on what you perceive as his inabilities to go through progressions and to process information quickly. It seems like these things can be improved through repetition (experience) and proper NFL coaching. And by ALL accounts Manuel has the necessary intelligence and work ethic to make those improvements. What remains to be seen is whether we have the coaching, but based on their decision to draft a quarterback with the necessary upside at the expense of familiarity (Nassib), I'm feeling better about our coaches all the time. Every quarterback has his own mental ceiling; and there is significant variation in those ceilings from one QB to another. The various scouting reports about Manuel suggest he may have a low mental ceiling. The high Wonderlic score would seem to indicate otherwise. However, it's possible to practice and study for the Wonderlic. Scores obtained after significant practice/coaching/study are considered less indicative of mental ceiling than scores obtained without study. If I become concerned about a QB's mental upside (or lack thereof) due to an apparent inability to process information quickly while on a football field, there are limits to the extent to which a high Wonderlic score can assuage my concerns. As for Barkley and his physical tools--or lack thereof--I agree that a guy with, say, Holcomb-level arm strength would not be physically equipped to be a franchise QB. A guy with Trent Edwards-level arm strength would be; assuming he has the accuracy and intangibles you want. (Which Edwards himself did not.) I personally would rather take a physical risk (Barkley's arm) than a mental one (Manuel's information processing speed). Besides that, it's not like the Bills avoided risk with their third round pick. They took a WR who wasn't even a starter in college. If it's a choice between a guy like that and the QB many had rated as best available in the draft, why not take the QB? One report, "NFL sources who watch Florida State closely have told WalterFootball.com that Manuel is not a natural pocket passer. They don't feel he is as accurate as his completion percentage indicates. They went on to say that Manuel is frustrating to watch because he has all the makings to be a special quarterback, but is not utilizing his full potential. The scheme that the Seminoles run also came under criticism. The view is that it is extremely basic and does not have Manuel well-prepared to run an NFL offense. Our sources believe that Manuel too often looks to run when his first-read is covered rather than quickly looking to his second and third options. As a passer, Manuel needs to work on his touch passes. He occasionally puts nice air under a ball, but too often throws everything on a line. Manuel needs to become a passer rather than a thrower." http://walterfootbal...2013emanuel.php another scouting report, "For as smart as Manuel is, Florida State did not run a complex offense for him. Fisher designed a predicated read offense where Manuel could make decisions pre-snap with only one or two reads after the ball is snapped. Most of Florida State's route combinations were high-low reads that developed in front of Manuel's field of vision to one side. After his initial reads were covered, he either held onto the ball too long looking for something to come open, or he took off running. He didn't work through many progressions past the second receiver, he didn't call audibles, and has a lot to learn about running an NFL offense at tempo and making fast reads against disguised NFL coverages." "Manuel needs lots of time to grow into a quarterback. Right now, he's an athlete playing quarterback. He needs to go to a team with a stable front office and coaching situation where he can develop at a slower pace. He can't run a NFL offense right now without significantly watering down the offense, or tailoring the offense the way Fisher did at Florida State." another scouting report, WEAKNESSES: He has a tendency to force throws into coverage trying to make a play. His decision-making and field vision are suspect. He struggles to work through progressions and often takes off running too quickly. Manuel has some accuracy issues as well. Short throws are often low or wide and his deep ball accuracy is uneven, as well. Gets happy feet under pressure, spins to the outside to avoid the rush. Must step into his throws more consistently to fully utilize his arm strength. NFL COMPARISON: Blaine Gabbert, Jason Campbell/Terrelle Pryor, Josh Freeman. http://www.nfl.com/d...nuel?id=2539228 http://www.milehighr...-denver-broncos another report you guys will really hate, Mentally, Manuel is nowhere near ready to command an NFL offense. His lack of football IQ, and general failure to understand the deeper aspects of the game are very obvious. Manuel does not read or anticipate defenses well, waiting for receivers to get open instead of throwing them open, his passes are frequently late, he does not use his eyes well to look off defenders, and if his first target isn't open he almost always pulls it down to run. Manuel has a ton of talent and ability, but would be best suited to sit on the bench for at least a year to learn the intricacies of the game and be coached up. I view Manuel as a backup in the league, and wouldn't take him any higher than the fourth round, but he is likely to go somewhere between 25-50 on draft day. http://www.nfldraftg...tingreport.html A lot of scouts had EJ rated as a 3rd - 4th round pick before the Senior Bowl. His stock went up so high after the senior bowl because all the other QB's sucked so badly it made EJ look brilliant. "He completed 7-of-10 passes for 76 yards, one touchdown and one interception. He also had four carries for 10 yards and a touchdown." http://espn.go.com/b...-in-senior-bowl So before you guy canonize EJ, let's hope Doug Marrone brings him along carefully. Like I've stated many times, I like the player, just not where he was picked. From everything I've read on the guy he is not even close to being ready to start this year. Also, first round QB's are usually pushed into starting by their teams / fans. Edwards' Arm might just have a point about comparing EJ to JP in that if they rush him into a starting job, he might just end up shell shocked like JP. Good post!
The Senator Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) For those still continually trashing EJ, read this... http://espn.go.com/b...-in-first-round As for the comparisons to Losman, they are nothing but sheer laziness, perpetuated by those posters with an axe to grind and those rooting for EJ to fail already. The similarities between Losman and EJ start and end at a big arm. EJ is smart, accurate, can move around, has a lightning quick release, is a great leader, and most importantly, his intangibles are through the roof. And yes, i have watched every single game EJ has played. I live here in Tallahassee. Thanks for the link, Ramius. BTW, with so many Seminoles on the Bills roster, I think the FSU Cowgirls should start making appearances at RWS on game day... Edited April 30, 2013 by The Senator
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