boyst Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 god is a child killer and I have the perfect follow up for that. But... it'd be a bad idea to post it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Faith, like any good thing, is dangerous in heavy doses. Terrible. It's not the faith it's stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 and I have the perfect follow up for that. But... it'd be a bad idea to post it... I wouldn't be surprised if more people have died at the hands of a doctor that with the hands of prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) I submit: When people talk about “Faith,” nothing is denoted. The word aims at something like belief-without-reason-to-believe. Not luck, not randomness, not simply hope--it’s supposed to be some other special kind of belief, but it’s not. It’s simply a fearful longing combined with a complete capitulation in terms of moral responsibility or reasonable expectation. It’s an infantile appeal to a supreme Daddy in the sky. I realize that, in ordinary language, the word faith is used as synonym for trust or fortitude or patience or hope, etc… That’s not what I’m disputing. I’m talking about the theological Faith, which has no meaning. Edited April 24, 2013 by gringo starr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 I submit: When people talk about “Faith,” nothing is denoted. The word aims at something like belief-without-reason-to-believe. Not luck, not randomness, not simply hope--it’s supposed to be some other special kind of belief, but it’s not. It’s simply a fearful longing combined with a complete capitulation in terms of moral responsibility or reasonable expectation. It’s an infantile appeal to a supreme Daddy in the sky. I realize that, inn ordinary language, the word faith is used as synonym for trust or fortitude or patience or hope, etc… That’s not what I’m disputing. I’m talking about the theological Faith, which has no meaning. Not true. Theological Faith is has the meaning that Faith embodies with it. Theological Faith has a tautological meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 I wouldn't be surprised if more people have died at the hands of a doctor that with the hands of prayer. I do not doubt that at all. This issue is not about the power of prayer it is about the weakness of intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Not true. Theological Faith is has the meaning that Faith embodies with it. Theological Faith has a tautological meaning. Sure, in an utterly trivial way. The meaning you describe belongs to that which a person has faith in, not to "faith" as a thing. But my point is that faith used in this way is a misnomer. The belief turns out to be quite ordinary if you look below the surface. In most cases, "hope" is what they mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Sure, in an utterly trivial way. The meaning you describe belongs to that which a person has faith in, not to "faith" as a thing. But my point is that faith used in this way is a misnomer. The belief turns out to be quite ordinary if you look below the surface. In most cases, "hope" is what they mean. Methinks you have to get out and meet a better class of believer - you should meet some of my relatives. Or millbank, for that matter. In my experience, true "faith" isn't "hope." The easiest way to tell the difference is: faith is almost always humble. Hope, rarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Methinks you have to get out and meet a better class of believer - you should meet some of my relatives. Or millbank, for that matter. In my experience, true "faith" isn't "hope." The easiest way to tell the difference is: faith is almost always humble. Hope, rarely. Out of curiosity, how would you define willpower or just will against both of those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Out of curiosity, how would you define willpower or just will against both of those? I don't suppose it would be too much trouble for you to ask a question that makes some !@#$ing sense, would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I don't suppose it would be too much trouble for you to ask a question that makes some !@#$ing sense, would it? Methinks you have to get out and meet a better class of believer - you should meet some of my relatives. Or millbank, for that matter. In my experience, true "faith" isn't "hope." The easiest way to tell the difference is: faith is almost always humble. Hope, rarely. How would you use the same definitions or description when describing will power or just will? Faith is not hope, but do either of them actually have the capacity to posses willpower? Can hope harbor will? Faith cannot...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Methinks you have to get out and meet a better class of believer - you should meet some of my relatives. Or millbank, for that matter. In my experience, true "faith" isn't "hope." The easiest way to tell the difference is: faith is almost always humble. Hope, rarely. I know people like this. I admire anyone who possesses humility, kindness, bravery, peace. But none of this illuminates the empty designator [Faith]. It's possible for someone to have a belief that gives him strength or confidence or calm. Granted. However, that does not prove the truth of the thing believed, nor, more importantly, does it say anything about the mode of belief in question. (Very much in question in my opinion.) I'm surprised you don't see the distinction here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) How would you use the same definitions or description when describing will power or just will? Faith is not hope, but do either of them actually have the capacity to posses willpower? Can hope harbor will? Faith cannot...? I don't completely understand your question. I think the notion of will is very difficult. Hard to give an account of how it's possible, yet hard to reconcile our experience without it. It's an apparently dubious notion, kind of similar to faith. If I think a while about either, sometimes I retreat to the feeling that maybe we should just appreciate the mysteries of being alive. Which would be fine except I'm jolted back to skepticism by those who insist they're RIGHT about some particularly dangerous piece of dogma. (The current example being the true believer parents who keep murdering their children with divine neglect.) Edited April 25, 2013 by gringo starr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I don't completely understand your question. I think the notion of will is very difficult. Hard to give an account of how it's possible, yet hard to reconcile our experience without it. It's an apparently dubious notion, kind of similar to faith. If I think a while about either, sometimes I retreat to the feeling that maybe we should just appreciate the mysteries of being alive. Which would be fine except I'm jolted back to skepticism by those who insist they're RIGHT about some particularly dangerous piece of dogma. (The current example being the true believer parents who keep murdering their children with divine neglect.) I have heard people will faith. The will power of faith to help serve the lord, his image, etc. People say it here often. I have never heard someone say that they have will power in their hope... I am not even sure I understand the question because I am not sure there is necessarily one. A persons faith and hope are different then others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I have heard people will faith. When I hear something like this, I cringe. Sounds exactly like willful ignorance to my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 "If I break my leg, I believe it happened for a reason. I believe God wanted me to break my leg. I also believe he wants me to put a cast on it." -a nun in some episode of House. Or God helps those who help themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I know people like this. I admire anyone who possesses humility, kindness, bravery, peace. But none of this illuminates the empty designator [Faith]. It's possible for someone to have a belief that gives him strength or confidence or calm. Granted. However, that does not prove the truth of the thing believed, nor, more importantly, does it say anything about the mode of belief in question. (Very much in question in my opinion.) I'm surprised you don't see the distinction here. I'm surprised you don't. Didn't I just say the truth in Faith derives from Faith? Hence, is tautological. Hence, cannot be proven. QED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I'm surprised you don't. Didn't I just say the truth in Faith derives from Faith? Hence, is tautological. Hence, cannot be proven. QED. Fine. It’s a tautology. Faith is Faith. And if I ask a proponent for clarification, they say, “you’ll know it when you know it.” Can’t be logically proven or disproven. I still say it’s a BS notion. There are those who claim to have knowledge of the divine and they claim this is attained not through evidence or logic and it’s not mere belief. They call it faith. I say they’re just giving a name to something that is just regular belief plus self-delusion. This is a psychological observation on my part. Of course, I could be wrong and there is something mystical at play that eludes me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Fine. It’s a tautology. Faith is Faith. And if I ask a proponent for clarification, they say, “you’ll know it when you know it.” Can’t be logically proven or disproven. I still say it’s a BS notion. There are those who claim to have knowledge of the divine and they claim this is attained not through evidence or logic and it’s not mere belief. They call it faith. I say they’re just giving a name to something that is just regular belief plus self-delusion. This is a psychological observation on my part. Of course, I could be wrong and there is something mystical at play that eludes me. I wouldn't call it a BS notion. I just call it belief. But then, I don't believe in belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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