Did anyone $&^@ this team more last year than Dave Wannstedt?

[The Big Cat]

I don't maintain that Wanny ever did anything right. Just that his players did more things wrong.

 

I can certainly understand, from a coaching perspective, how he was hamstrung from doing certain things more often given the dearth of talent in the back 7 and having an absolute sieve in the run game on the right side. I know, from a coaching perspective, that it's difficult to play ANY 43 scheme when you don't have ONE starting caliber LB on your squad that can play all three downs effectively. It's extremely difficult to play certain zone schemes when your SS can't be trusted to be much help in coverage. Gilmore and Williams paid dearly for that liability.

 

I know, he just shoulda blitzed more. This place makes me laugh.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Well, we can never agree that there was or wasn't a dearth of talent since I firmly believe it's a coach's job to make UP for talent. And in that sense, even staying with your supposition that talent was extremely lacking on the defensive side of the ball, Wanny's whole scheme was line up and beat the guy in front of you. So, even if we HAD ****ty talent, the scheme itself only COMPOUNDED the problem when, with the right coaching, the problem could have at least been masked. Instead, Wanny lined up the same guys, told them to do the same thing, whether or not it was working (most of the time it was not). So the players looked that much WORSE, thanks to the coach. And therein lies the crux for MY belief that with the right coaching, your claim that it's talent talent talent loses some traction.

[K-9]

When these things weren't working should he have tried something different? That is my biggest issue with him period. It was broke and he never tried to fix it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

Definitely should have tried something different. That couldn't have hurt. But, given what I witnessed from his back 7 most of the year, I'm at a loss as to EXACTLY what that should have been. His LBs, SS, and RDE couldn't execute basic, fundamental football plays most of the time. Again, that isn't a scheme issue. You can either hold the POA or not. You can either be quick enough to the hole or not. You can either take proper drop angles and depths or not. You can either get over to your deep 1/2, 1/3, etc. or not. I maintain Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, Bradham, A Williams, and Moore would have been just as slow, weak, inexperienced or any combination thereof, regardless. The proof is just too overwhelmingly obvious to me whenever I watch it.

 

Nothing will convince me otherwise. And we won't know because they are either gone or re-assigned positions in a new scheme. It's really a moot point at this stage and simply isn't worth arguing any more.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[billsrcursed]

Definitely should have tried something different. That couldn't have hurt. But, given what I witnessed from his back 7 most of the year, I'm at a loss as to EXACTLY what that should have been. His LBs, SS, and RDE couldn't execute basic, fundamental football plays most of the time. Again, that isn't a scheme issue. You can either hold the POA or not. You can either be quick enough to the hole or not. You can either take proper drop angles and depths or not. You can either get over to your deep 1/2, 1/3, etc. or not. I maintain Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, Bradham, A Williams, and Moore would have been just as slow, weak, inexperienced or any combination thereof, regardless. The proof is just too overwhelmingly obvious to me whenever I watch it.

 

Nothing will convince me otherwise. And we won't know because they are either gone or re-assigned positions in a new scheme. It's really a moot point at this stage and simply isn't worth arguing any more.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

To answer your question you posed to me earlier, I don't know. Blitzes are situational, so I'd be making something up to support my statement, and I'm not willing to go back and watch game tape to come up with a specific time he should have blitzed instead.

 

Like you already admitted to, he should have done something, anything.

 

I'm not saying we have/had pro bowlers at every position, but we weren't the least talented D in the league either. It was obvious he wasn't attempting anything new to improve their play. It was simply send 4 and hope for the best.

[The Big Cat]

Definitely should have tried something different. That couldn't have hurt. But, given what I witnessed from his back 7 most of the year, I'm at a loss as to EXACTLY what that should have been. His LBs, SS, and RDE couldn't execute basic, fundamental football plays most of the time. Again, that isn't a scheme issue. You can either hold the POA or not. You can either be quick enough to the hole or not. You can either take proper drop angles and depths or not. You can either get over to your deep 1/2, 1/3, etc. or not. I maintain Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, Bradham, A Williams, and Moore would have been just as slow, weak, inexperienced or any combination thereof, regardless. The proof is just too overwhelmingly obvious to me whenever I watch it.

 

Nothing will convince me otherwise. And we won't know because they are either gone or re-assigned positions in a new scheme. It's really a moot point at this stage and simply isn't worth arguing any more.

 

GO BILLS!!!

To answer your question you posed to me earlier, I don't know. Blitzes are situational, so I'd be making something up to support my statement, and I'm not willing to go back and watch game tape to come up with a specific time he should have blitzed instead.

 

Like you already admitted to, he should have done something, anything.

 

I'm not saying we have/had pro bowlers at every position, but we weren't the least talented D in the league either. It was obvious he wasn't attempting anything new to improve their play. It was simply send 4 and hope for the best.

 

I re-watched the Tennessee game last weekend, and JESUS, watching Hasselbeck, on EVERY crucial third or fourth down play just stand in the pocket, and take four to five seconds to find a guy running wild 12 yards down field, was absolutely INFURIATING. And THAT kind of horse **** broke our backs last year way more so than all the technical (though no doubt accurate) mumbo jumbo K-9 alluded to. And that's entirely to do with schemes, not hiding jack ****, not blitzing...EVER...and doing virtually nothing to upset the flow of our opponent's offense.

 

Please please please, if you haven't already, watch the post-practice interview with Mario from yesterday.

[K-9]

To answer your question you posed to me earlier, I don't know. Blitzes are situational, so I'd be making something up to support my statement, and I'm not willing to go back and watch game tape to come up with a specific time he should have blitzed instead.

 

Like you already admitted to, he should have done something, anything.

 

I'm not saying we have/had pro bowlers at every position, but we weren't the least talented D in the league either. It was obvious he wasn't attempting anything new to improve their play. It was simply send 4 and hope for the best.

 

I'd be hard-pressed to find a worse group of LBs or poorer SS play in the NFL.

 

As for sending blitzes, you are correct; they are situational. And the key to that is keeping opposing offenses in favorable down/distance situations. That is IMPOSSIBLE most of the time when you have a sieve for a run defense. Is anyone here going to actually try to convince me that our defense enjoyed those favorable circumstances most of the time when the opposite is true?

 

Well then, Wanny just should have schemed a better run D? OK, how EXACTLY? He DID try playing shallow safeties at times and that cost him dearly given Wilson's problems. I'd usually say try some run blitzes but our LBs were so terrible in their gap discipline, especially Sheppard and Bradham, that it just wasn't a high percentage play. To say nothing of leaving his two VERY greenhorn CBs out to dry.

 

It's easy for me to put myself in Wanny's shoes and understand just how limited he was given what I saw strictly from a fundamental football aspect.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PoppaBen]

It's just a word, who cares. I've never understood the concept of some words being taboo to say. Just words conveying the exact same meaning as other words that are OK to say. It makes no sense at all really. And people who complain about them on their high horse make no sense to me neither. Like you're really offended by it? Come on.

F**K YEAH!!! GO BILLS!!

[QCity]

Look, Mrs. Wannstedt, this crusade you're on is noble and all, but at some point you have to deal with how unlikely it is that everyone in the universe is wrong but you.

 

lol. It's called arguing for the sake of arguing. Some people will argue that the sun rises in the north and sets in the east. I'll never understand why, maybe it's an attention thing.

 

I've been watching football for 4 decades, I can honestly say that I cannot recall a Bills defensive coordinator doing less with more. The scab players on defense in the 80s were more aggressive.

[Kirby Jackson]

K-9 admitted that there is not one thing that he liked about Wanny defense. The man with the most power on the defense did nothing well yet there are people with more blame for the d? I don't understand; I am over this conversation.

[K-9]

lol. It's called arguing for the sake of arguing. Some people will argue that the sun rises in the north and sets in the east. I'll never understand why, maybe it's an attention thing.

 

I've been watching football for 4 decades, I can honestly say that I cannot recall a Bills defensive coordinator doing less with more. The scab players on defense in the 80s were more aggressive.

 

LOL here, too. I don't argue for the sake of arguing. I just don't accept the arguments as presently presented. If you can convince me otherwise, please do.

 

4 decades over here as well. I can say that Walt Corey did less with more than anyone in our history. But other than M Williams, a less than 100% Kyle Williams, a depressed Dareus, and a solid FS in Byrd, just who are the players from last year that comprise all this "more" you speak of? Just who did I miss that deserves a reservation in Canton?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

K-9 admitted that there is not one thing that he liked about Wanny defense. The man with the most power on the defense did nothing well yet there are people with more blame for the d? I don't understand; I am over this conversation.

 

 

The man with the most power except he can't play a down. But yeah, it's always about how it's drawn up and NEVER about how it's executed. Funny stuff.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

LOL here, too. I don't argue for the sake of arguing. I just don't accept the arguments as presently presented. If you can convince me otherwise, please do.

 

4 decades over here as well. I can say that Walt Corey did less with more than anyone in our history. But other than M Williams, a less than 100% Kyle Williams, a depressed Dareus, and a solid FS in Byrd, just who are the players from last year that comprise all this "more" you speak of? Just who did I miss that deserves a reservation in Canton?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

 

The man with the most power except he can't play a down. But yeah, it's always about how it's drawn up and NEVER about how it's executed. Funny stuff.

 

GO BILLS!!!

If you can't think of anything Wanny did good, how could the players playing be worse?

[Sisyphean Bills]

There is a saying, "a bad plan perfectly executed is better than a perfect plan executed like ****." K-9 has a legit point. Wannstedt's plan may have sucked, but his players gave up on it.

[Kirby Jackson]

There is a saying, "a bad plan perfectly executed is better than a perfect plan executed like ****." K-9 has a legit point. Wannstedt's plan may have sucked, but his players gave up on it.

 

I think that we are all in agreement that it was a poor plan executed poorly. Those of us arguing that Wanny was the biggest problem believe that he is the one most responsible for making the changes necessary to improve. We all agree that he didn't do anything well. My take is that the person with the most responsibility doing nothing right makes him the biggest problem. How can someone be deemed worse? The question at the start is "who did more than Wanny to screw this up"?

[K-9]

There is a saying, "a bad plan perfectly executed is better than a perfect plan executed like ****." K-9 has a legit point. Wannstedt's plan may have sucked, but his players gave up on it.

 

I was just going to post something to this effect in response to Kelly's funny post above. The 6 players (over half the defense, btw) that I've cited ad naseum since the Jets game last year, couldn't even execute the simplest of plans with any consistency. But that is not a surprise when you watch them play their assignments, especially in the run game. There are Xs and Os and then there is the simple PHYSICAL ability to carry them out. Being slow, not agile enough, or weak at the POA simply cannot be rectified by scheme when you have that many players on the field at the same that, for whatever reason, weren't physically able to perform. I look for Bradham to improve as most of his problems stemmed from sheer inexperience and over-aggressivenes. Wilson, Barnett, Moore are gone and Williams is in a new position. I'd be pleasantly surprised if Sheppard improved. I haven't been impressed with him in either a 34 or 43 front so far.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think that we are all in agreement that it was a poor plan executed poorly. Those of us arguing that Wanny was the biggest problem believe that he is the one most responsible for making the changes necessary to improve. We all agree that he didn't do anything well. My take is that the person with the most responsibility doing nothing right makes him the biggest problem. How can someone be deemed worse? The question at the start is "who did more than Wanny to screw this up"?

 

Systemic lack of accountability makes this an exercise in circular thinking.

[K-9]

I think that we are all in agreement that it was a poor plan executed poorly. Those of us arguing that Wanny was the biggest problem believe that he is the one most responsible for making the changes necessary to improve. We all agree that he didn't do anything well. My take is that the person with the most responsibility doing nothing right makes him the biggest problem. How can someone be deemed worse? The question at the start is "who did more than Wanny to screw this up"?

 

Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, (Moats)/Bradham, Moore, and A Williams.

 

And now I've come full circle since I first answered the quesion.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[MRW]

There is a saying, "a bad plan perfectly executed is better than a perfect plan executed like ****." K-9 has a legit point. Wannstedt's plan may have sucked, but his players gave up on it.

Of course, it feeds on itself. If Wannstedt came up with a better plan in the first place, maybe the players would've bought into it.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, (Moats)/Bradham, Moore, and A Williams.

 

And now I've come full circle since I first answered the quesion.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

We just disagree. I do not believe that a situational pass rusher should take more blame for the defense's failures than the guy that designed the D. I had no problem with any of the players that they let go. I think that they were all good decisions. I just think that Wanny is more responsible for the situation getting to the point that it got to. No hard feelings, we all want the same thing. Hopefully 2013 will produce the results that we all wanted in '12!!

[K-9]

Of course, it feeds on itself. If Wannstedt came up with a better plan in the first place, maybe the players would've bought into it.

 

So when Moore was getting his ass handed to him on running plays, it was because he wasn't buying into the system? When Wilson was late getting over to help or come up in run support, it was because he just didn't like the defense? Or when Barnett got repeatedly burned in pass coverage, it was because Wanny didn't scheme him correctly? How about when BOTH A Williams and Wilson were getting burned on deep balls? And Bradhams youthful over-pursuit, was that because he had a philosophical difference with the design? And if only Sheppard was in a better scheme, he would have been so much faster to the hole? Never mind he was just as slow in the 34 the previous year.

 

Mind boggling.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[eball]

Somebody let me know when Wanny is given control over any defense, college or pro, ever again. His hiring in Tampa Bay (as ST coach, of all things) reeks of more cronyism as Schiano worked for Wanny in Chicago.

 

The guy is a certified, grade A dud.

[MRW]

So when Moore was getting his ass handed to him on running plays, it was because he wasn't buying into the system? When Wilson was late getting over to help or come up in run support, it was because he just didn't like the defense? Or when Barnett got repeatedly burned in pass coverage, it was because Wanny didn't scheme him correctly? How about when BOTH A Williams and Wilson were getting burned on deep balls? And Bradhams youthful over-pursuit, was that because he had a philosophical difference with the design? And if only Sheppard was in a better scheme, he would have been so much faster to the hole? Never mind he was just as slow in the 34 the previous year.

 

Mind boggling.

 

GO BILLS!!!

You beat up that straw man very impressively.