K-9 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 With the possible exception of Aaron Williams who on the defense was worse at their job than Wanny? Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, Moats, Bradham, Moore. Gilmore was vicitmized early on but improved. Having two raw CBs really hamstrung whatever scheme flexibility Wanny was hoping for, especially when he saw how bad his back 7 really was. I've already mentioned how piss poor LB play really had an impact on the amount of stunts and other games he may have wanted to run with his DL packages. Perhaps Wanny WAS too conservative but we'll never know for sure because he had ample reason to play it safe given the shortcomings of so many players, especially his LBs as a group. I'm amazed at how little appreciation people have for that. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, Moats, Bradham, Moore. Gilmore was vicitmized early on but improved. Having two raw CBs really hamstrung whatever scheme flexibility Wanny was hoping for, especially when he saw how bad his back 7 really was. I've already mentioned how piss poor LB play really had an impact on the amount of stunts and other games he may have wanted to run with his DL packages. Perhaps Wanny WAS too conservative but we'll never know for sure because he had ample reason to play it safe given the shortcomings of so many players, especially his LBs as a group. I'm amazed at how little appreciation people have for that. GO BILLS!!! Maybe the better question is what exactly did you like about what he did? What did he do well? Who did he put in a position to succeed? Who did he outcoach? What gameplan did he install that was good?
Nikademus Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 (edited) Couldn't Wanny have purged those players as well? If he believed he could win with the players that constituted our defense last year would that fall on him or is that only on the shoulders of the people above him? I always assumed that he had a say in the personal we fielded on D last year (as in pursuing FA's and cutting players, Mario for example). Having asked that question, I think it was a bit of both. Also, if players saw that others weren't playing to their ability due to lack of effort couldn't he see that too? I don't recall any players getting benched for those type of things but I may just not be recalling it or it may have not been that obvious at the time. And, if Pettine does succeed this year could a case be made that the talent was misused more than anything else? Assuming no major additions are keys to success this year. Edited April 19, 2013 by Nikademus
K-9 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Maybe the better question is what exactly did you like about what he did? What did he do well? Who did he put in a position to succeed? Who did he outcoach? What gameplan did he install that was good? I can't say I like anything he did per se. Can't say he outcoached anyone either. And none of his gameplans really stand out. All of that is secondary to me though when I constantly saw players getting their asses handed to them when they were in position to make plays. Guys late or overpersuing. Losing contain. The list goes on. These are NOT schematic issues. These are TALENT issues. Can some of it be attributed to inexperience? Of course. Gilmore and Bradham are prime examples. Can some of it be attributed to the aging process. Yep. Wilson and Barnett come to mind. Regardless, it was poor execution of fundemental football time and time again. It's not Kyle Moore's fault that he isn't strong enough to hold his ground; he's simply not good enough. I think you get the point. But just for discussion's sake, how should Wanny have schemed to protect Kyle Moore in the run game say, for example, against the 49ers? How should he have had his safeties come up quicker in run support against NE? We like to pick on Scott in that game but both Byrd and Wilson missed golden opportunities to meet RBs in the hole. Time and time again. Same with Barnett. Of course Brady would have had a field day taking advantage of shallow safeties so I'd be open to suggestions. GO BILLS!!! Couldn't Wanny have purged those players as well? If he believed he could win with the players that constituted our defense last year would that fall on him or is that only on the shoulders of the people above him? I always assumed that he had a say in the personal we fielded on D last year (as in pursuing FA's and cutting players, Mario for example). Having asked that question, I think it was a bit of both. Also, if players saw that others weren't playing to their ability due to lack of effort couldn't he see that too? I don't recall any players getting benched for those type of things but I may just not be recalling it or it may have not been that obvious at the time. And, if Pettine does succeed this year could a case be made that the talent was misused more than anything else? Assuming no major additions are keys to success this year. Pettine will be fielding a team with new personnel in various positions, including SS and two LB spots. All of which were the MAJOR achilles heel on the team last season. Additionally, our worst DLman against the run is gone and won't be around for teams to have a field day against. I don't see it as the same group at all. I think you make a fair point about Wanny having a say in cutting those guys. And given how poor our D was in 2011, he probably should have had more of an idea. But that's on Nix more than anything. It's his job to get players that fit the schemes being implemented. But still, I have to fault Wanny and Gailey for that as well. GO BILLS!!!
GaryPinC Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I agree 100% but was it really necessary to put F**K in the title to get your point accross? Let's use a little more class here. I agree with you, but did you really need to put F**K in your sentence to get your point across? Oh, the hypocrisy.
Awwufelloff Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I think I can count how many times the team blitzed in the first half of the season on one hand.
bowery4 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Actually to answer the OP's question, I would go with Ralph.
Nitro Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I have a novel idea...the Bills design a defense that players to the strenghts of the personnel on the field instead of a scheme that the D Coordinator is married to philosophically. There is talent on this team and is was badly served last season. Wanny was living on a very old reputation...the Dallas glory days. He has done squat since then. There is hope for a better future for the Bills.
CJPearl2 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Class? Dude, this is a football fan board, it isn't !@#$ing church.
dalerkeyes Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Thankfully Pettine intends to make the defense more aggressive than what Wannie did, which was boring and bland.
Kiwi Bills fan Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Yea, I totally agree that Wanny was the #1 problem last year. I couldn't believe how many times multiple defensive players looked lost, confused and frustrated right before the ball was snapped. They would look to the sidelines and raise their hands like "what"? Man, I hope we bring the heat this year. Go Bills!
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Head to believe that his scheme was so bad. The results do speak for themselves can't run the old dallas D 20 years latter with less talent.
CSBill Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 (edited) What was so frustrating was there never seemed to be any adjustments. What's the definition of insanity? "Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results." Edited April 19, 2013 by CSBill
Kirby Jackson Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 (edited) Wilson, Barnett, Sheppard, Moats, Bradham, Moore. Gilmore was vicitmized early on but improved. Having two raw CBs really hamstrung whatever scheme flexibility Wanny was hoping for, especially when he saw how bad his back 7 really was. I've already mentioned how piss poor LB play really had an impact on the amount of stunts and other games he may have wanted to run with his DL packages. Perhaps Wanny WAS too conservative but we'll never know for sure because he had ample reason to play it safe given the shortcomings of so many players, especially his LBs as a group. I'm amazed at how little appreciation people have for that. GO BILLS!!! A 2 down LB, passing rushing specialist, etc... have nowhere near the influence that a d coordinator has. That's like saying that the RG has a bigger impact than a bad QB. They are just not the same. Kyle Moore did a better job at being a part time pass rusher than Dave Wannstedt did as designing an entire defense. By this logic you would answer the initial question by saying, "No, Kyle Moore did more to screw the team up last year"? The defending of him is absurd!! He was as bad at his job as anyone that the Bills have had in any role in the last decade (and that is saying something). Edited April 19, 2013 by Kirby Jackson
billsrcursed Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I think I can count how many times the team blitzed in the first half of the season on one hand. Exactly. If your corners are SOOO bad, why leave them in coverage for so long? That doesn't add up. Wanny had every opportunity to do what Pettine is doing now. It pains me to hear some of you defend this guy. One of the most obvious flaws of this team in it's existence.
K-9 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 A 2 down LB, passing rushing specialist, etc... have nowhere near the influence that a d coordinator has. That's like saying that the RG has a bigger impact than a bad QB. They are just not the same. Kyle Moore did a better job at being a part time pass rusher than Dave Wannstedt did as designing an entire defense. By this logic you would answer the initial question by saying, "No, Kyle Moore did more to screw the team up last year"? The defending of him is absurd!! He was as bad at his job as anyone that the Bills have had in any role in the last decade (and that is saying something). I need to go no further than the bold text. Not one playmaking, 3 down LB on the squad last year. That is just not acceptable in today's game and AGAIN, is not something you can simply scheme your way around. Would have been interesting had the Panthers not taken Keuchly as that's the guy Wanny wanted more than anyone else in the draft. Kyle Moore did more to keep the D on the field than any other players given his total inability to play the run. The WORST run-defending DE I've ever seen in a Bills uniform and that's going back to my earliest recollections of '65. And once again, I am not defending Wanny. I'm merely saying that too many players were worse at their jobs than he was at his. But it's comforting to know believe we had good players at SS, LB, and weakside DE instead. That's just a refusal to accept what was blatantly obvious on film all year. GO BILLS!!!
Kirby Jackson Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I need to go no further than the bold text. Not one playmaking, 3 down LB on the squad last year. That is just not acceptable in today's game and AGAIN, is not something you can simply scheme your way around. Would have been interesting had the Panthers not taken Keuchly as that's the guy Wanny wanted more than anyone else in the draft. Kyle Moore did more to keep the D on the field than any other players given his total inability to play the run. The WORST run-defending DE I've ever seen in a Bills uniform and that's going back to my earliest recollections of '65. And once again, I am not defending Wanny. I'm merely saying that too many players were worse at their jobs than he was at his. But it's comforting to know believe we had good players at SS, LB, and weakside DE instead. That's just a refusal to accept what was blatantly obvious on film all year. GO BILLS!!! So to answer the original question, "Kyle Moore did more to screw this team up than Dave Wannstedt"?
K-9 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Exactly. If your corners are SOOO bad, why leave them in coverage for so long? That doesn't add up. Wanny had every opportunity to do what Pettine is doing now. It pains me to hear some of you defend this guy. One of the most obvious flaws of this team in it's existence. It's not a question of how long the CBs had to sustain their coverage. It's a question of leaving them exposed in single coverage for ANY length of time when they weren't convincing anyone they had the ability to be left alone, especially Williams. And while Gilmore improved tremendously, he was a confused looking player and had major trouble early in the year. Totally fooled by combination routes and had little help from his safeties as well. But I'll play devil's advocate and ask you to give me your blitz schemes. Who do you send and where and in what game situation? And you can only use the personnel we had last season. GO BILLS!!! So to answer the original question, "Kyle Moore did more to screw this team up than Dave Wannstedt"? Absolutely. He was the DE equivalent of a 2 down LB only he was a 1 down player. So, how should Wanny have schemed his D to cover for Moore's obvious deficiencies in the run game? Feel free to draw it up. Last year's players only, please. GO BILLS!!!
Kirby Jackson Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 It's not a question of how long the CBs had to sustain their coverage. It's a question of leaving them exposed in single coverage for ANY length of time when they weren't convincing anyone they had the ability to be left alone, especially Williams. And while Gilmore improved tremendously, he was a confused looking player and had major trouble early in the year. Totally fooled by combination routes and had little help from his safeties as well. But I'll play devil's advocate and ask you to give me your blitz schemes. Who do you send and where and in what game situation? And you can only use the personnel we had last season. GO BILLS!!! Absolutely. He was the DE equivalent of a 2 down LB only he was a 1 down player. So, how should Wanny have schemed his D to cover for Moore's obvious deficiencies in the run game? Feel free to draw it up. Last year's players only, please. GO BILLS!!! I wouldn't have had him on the field except in OBVIOUS passing situations!! You are making the point for me. His schemes were so outdated. The advancements in prep,video, and free agency has increased the importance of deception. There is not a team in the league that wins that just lines up and wins because they are physically better. If they know where you are going to be they adjust pre snap and go where you are not.
Bills4 Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Maybe the better question is what exactly did you like about what he did? What did he do well? Who did he put in a position to succeed? Who did he outcoach? What gameplan did he install that was good? Big 3rd and 5 in jets opener and Byrd is lined up Santonio Holmes 15 yards deep. Did byrd make a mistake? Possible. Or was it bad coaching/bad scheme and thats where Byrd had to line up against that formation in 3rd and 5? Wanny got outcoached bad. Look at second half of Pats game at home. Bellicheck made adjustments, wanny didnt, Bills D got destroyed. So I agree. Can anybody name something they liked about Wannys coaching? Can someone point out a situation where we saw a formation earlier in the game, made an adjustment to it, and made the play later in the game? I cant. But I dont watch as much game film as some of you doods.
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