Did anyone $&^@ this team more last year than Dave Wannstedt?

[John from Riverside]

We have been throwing SO MUCH at our defense over recent years...I am wondering if the talent is right there on the team and Pettine was the final piece.

[K-9]

Because Wanny based his entire defense on his players being better than their opponents and winning their one on one battles. That's what made his defenses successful in the past, and he publicly said it. But whether it was talent or injury or a combination of both, that is the defense he taught, put on the field, and worse, kept to for a mind-numbing length of time, even when it was obvious they weren't winning (m)any of those battles.

 

I was very optimistic about Wanny before the season. But as stated earlier, the game had passed him by and he didn't adapt at all and it was an immediate and continuous disaster.

 

Let me guess, he was supposed to "scheme" his way around players that weren't good enough in order to hide their deficiencies? Our D was just as bad under Jauron/Fewell and Gailey/Edwards. Had the game passed them by as well?

 

I think your post earlier in the thread was very fair in that it takes a combination of things for teams to have success. From the FO, to the coaches, to the QB, etc etc etc. It's certainly been a combination of factors at play that have kept the Bills in the basement for so long. I'll just say that given our ineptitude on defense over the course of several DCs and schemes, especially from the Fewell era, we have seen some of the worst defenses in our history. That speaks to a continued problem in acquiring enough talented players and for my money and based on what I witnessed last season, Wanny was the least of the problems on that side of the ball. He was just the latest to be vicimtized by the dearth of talent.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mr. WEO]

Pray tell, how is it you had access to all of the private conversations Buddy and Chan had throughout the course of the season last year? Keep pushing your "Nix is a buffoon" agenda, WEO.

 

 

 

And what, precisely, is wrong with that? Is no one permitted to change his mind after witnessing the product on the field? Also, exactly what "tortuous attempts" are being made to absolve Buddy Nix of responsibility for the state of the franchise? You are so arrogant and focused on your own agenda you can't even participate in a simple discussion without blowing it up.

 

Well.....starting a thread blaming Wanny for for screwing up the 2012 Bill the most is certainly in the top 5.

 

As for the private conversations, I'm only inferring what is obvious. I'm assuming Buddy didn't notice that Wanny wasn't a part of the problem with the defense when he promoted him to DC. What on earth do you think the discussion went like back then?

 

I've documented my position on why I (and many others here) think Buddy is a buffoon as a GM. You tell us what a great job he has done in the draft and FA to asssemble to talent on D when there is ample reason that they just aren't that talented--and were badly coached by a guy that Buddy hired to help out the first awful DC he selected and then promoted that guy after he did such a poor job helping out the first guy.

 

It has been said many times, a GM's main job is to pick a good HC and a good QB. After 3 years, Buddy fired those two guys he had selected in his first year. His drafts have been suspect. He made Mario Williams the highest paid D player in history.

 

You have a personal attatchment to him, I can see and to some degree respect that. But evaluating him on the job he has done and the product he has created and the progress he has made, no one can objectively can say he has succeeded in any significant way. He's been made to look foolish.

[eball]

Let me guess, he was supposed to "scheme" his way around players that weren't good enough in order to hide their deficiencies? Our D was just as bad under Jauron/Fewell and Gailey/Edwards. Had the game passed them by as well?

 

I think your post earlier in the thread was very fair in that it takes a combination of things for teams to have success. From the FO, to the coaches, to the QB, etc etc etc. It's certainly been a combination of factors at play that have kept the Bills in the basement for so long. I'll just say that given our ineptitude on defense over the course of several DCs and schemes, especially from the Fewell era, we have seen some of the worst defenses in our history. That speaks to a continued problem in acquiring enough talented players and for my money and based on what I witnessed last season, Wanny was the least of the problems on that side of the ball. He was just the latest to be vicimtized by the dearth of talent.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

:lol: :lol: Can't wait to bring this one back later in the fall.

[K-9]

We have been throwing SO MUCH at our defense over recent years...I am wondering if the talent is right there on the team and Pettine was the final piece.

 

Well, I count 5 (6 if you count Kelsay) starters either gone or switched to another position since the season ended. That's a big chunk of the defense. I don't get the impression Pettine was feeling good about the talent "right there on the team."

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ProbablyWrong]

Just saw a quote from Mario on Twitter saying he has never played so many positions before. Sounds like we are gonna be doing some interesting things... MW at corner???

 

One thing is for sure: this sure isn't Wanny's Defense.

[K-9]

:lol: :lol: Can't wait to bring this one back later in the fall.

 

Just remember to note that Pettine has either jettisoned or switched 6 starters from last season's defense. Let's not act like he was so happy with the players he inherited that he didn't set out to remake the roster. Wilson, Barnett, Moore, Kelsay, gone. Williams and Bradham switched. This isn't the same group at all.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[eball]

Well.....starting a thread blaming Wanny for for screwing up the 2012 Bill the most is certainly in the top 5.

 

As for the private conversations, I'm only inferring what is obvious. I'm assuming Buddy didn't notice that Wanny wasn't a part of the problem with the defense when he promoted him to DC. What on earth do you think the discussion went like back then?

 

I've documented my position on why I (and many others here) think Buddy is a buffoon as a GM. You tell us what a great job he has done in the draft and FA to asssemble to talent on D when there is ample reason that they just aren't that talented--and were badly coached by a guy that Buddy hired to help out the first awful DC he selected and then promoted that guy after he did such a poor job helping out the first guy.

 

Where did I tell you that? I called him "middle of the pack" as recently as a week ago, I believe. But nice misrepresentation. And your "inference" is hardly the only reasonable one.

 

It has been said many times, a GM's main job is to pick a good HC and a good QB. After 3 years, Buddy fired those two guys he had selected in his first year. His drafts have been suspect. He made Mario Williams the highest paid D player in history.

 

You have a personal attatchment to him, I can see and to some degree respect that. But evaluating him on the job he has done and the product he has created and the progress he has made, no one can objectively can say he has succeeded in any significant way. He's been made to look foolish.

 

That's just bizarre. I call it like I see it. It's amazing to me that anyone would defend a hack and has-been like Wannstedt.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

Let me guess, he was supposed to "scheme" his way around players that weren't good enough in order to hide their deficiencies? Our D was just as bad under Jauron/Fewell and Gailey/Edwards. Had the game passed them by as well?

 

I think your post earlier in the thread was very fair in that it takes a combination of things for teams to have success. From the FO, to the coaches, to the QB, etc etc etc. It's certainly been a combination of factors at play that have kept the Bills in the basement for so long. I'll just say that given our ineptitude on defense over the course of several DCs and schemes, especially from the Fewell era, we have seen some of the worst defenses in our history. That speaks to a continued problem in acquiring enough talented players and for my money and based on what I witnessed last season, Wanny was the least of the problems on that side of the ball. He was just the latest to be vicimtized by the dearth of talent.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think he did have slightly better players. And I think that Fewell got a lot more out of less.

 

The point to me is yes, he did have to scheme out of that mess. When nothing is working a coach has to try to take away one thing, the run or the pass, and then scheme to try to mask or lessen the other, or even downright gamble because what you're doing is clearly not working. We didn't pressure, we didn't blitz, we didn't crowd the line, we didn't press our coverage, we didn't try to press the issue at all when we were repeatedly getting massacred. Later in the year when Mario was healthy and Bradham and Leo came on a little, and Kyle won a few more battles we were better but not at all good and still had some total collapses. He had to do something whether it worked or not and he did nothing.

[BillsVet]

Exactly. Blame the guy who is no longer here, and ignore the clown at the top who hired him and is still calling the shots.

 

Bills ticket selling strategy in 2004, 2006, 2010, and 2013. The coaching failures are a symptom of the root cause that is Bills management failure, which includes the GM, president and/or owner. I think HC's get blamed because to the casual surface level fan, they're visible and so are their game-day decisions. Meanwhile, GM's typically are rarely seen and most of their work is done in a conference room or away from a camera

 

We have been throwing SO MUCH at our defense over recent years...I am wondering if the talent is right there on the team and Pettine was the final piece.

 

I doubt it. Teams that change defenses typically need time to adjust to and learn the scheme. Part of the reason this organization has been on the merry-go round of defensive ineptitude has been the constant changing of their scheme. 4-3 Cover 2 from 06-09, 3-4 (followed by the amazing 5-2) in 2010-11. Then a 4-3 under by Wannstedt. To think they'll ace the next defensive change because they've played everything before is extremely remote. Going to take time to acclimate for the players to Pettine's scheme.

Edited April 18, 2013 by BillsVet

[K-9]

I think he did have slightly better players. And I think that Fewell got a lot more out of less.

 

The point to me is yes, he did have to scheme out of that mess. When nothing is working a coach has to try to take away one thing, the run or the pass, and then scheme to try to mask or lessen the other, or even downright gamble because what you're doing is clearly not working. We didn't pressure, we didn't blitz, we didn't crowd the line, we didn't press our coverage, we didn't try to press the issue at all when we were repeatedly getting massacred. Later in the year when Mario was healthy and Bradham and Leo came on a little, and Kyle won a few more battles we were better but not at all good and still had some total collapses. He had to do something whether it worked or not and he did nothing.

 

How anyone can say Fewell got much out of that defense is beyond me. They were atrocious against the run. Some of the worst run defenses in Bills history.

 

Per the bold text, while Wanny certainly didn't bring pressure as much as as we may have liked him to, this is simply not true. But the bigger point is that he didn't enjoy the luxury of putting that kind of pressure on his raw CBs once he saw that he had such an inept front seven, especially LBs who couldn't cover, and no help from Wilson at SS. You can't stunt when you have LBs that are terrible in their gap discipline. He found that out, too.

 

You cannot scheme your way around so many poor players. One or two, yeah, if you've got good players at other key positions. But on a defense with only 5 legit good players and not ONE LB AMONG THAT FIVE, well, it's a mighty task.

 

Anyway, I've enjoyed the debate as always, Kelly. But I'm just plowing old ground here. Wanny's gone. We still need players and Pettine seems to have recognized that given who's no longer on the team and who has been re-assigned. I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mr. WEO]

Where did I tell you that? I called him "middle of the pack" as recently as a week ago, I believe. But nice misrepresentation. And your "inference" is hardly the only reasonable one.

 

 

 

That's just bizarre. I call it like I see it. It's amazing to me that anyone would defend a hack and has-been like Wannstedt.

 

Like your totally bizarre Kelsay threads last season? You are a crusader of the highest order.

 

And as K-9 pointed out, Pettine has already dumped (or allowed your man Kelsay to quit before being dumped) 4 starters and has pushed off A Williams to safety (no guarantee he will start there either.

[eball]

Like your totally bizarre Kelsay threads last season? You are a crusader of the highest order.

 

And as K-9 pointed out, Pettine has already dumped (or allowed your man Kelsay to quit before being dumped) 4 starters and has pushed off A Williams to safety (no guarantee he will start there either.

 

Aside from defending Kelsay against excessive and unwarranted criticism, what exactly have I crusaded for (or against)?

 

Oh, believe me, I clearly see you and K-9 backtracking quickly so there's an excuse ready when the defense is a pleasant surprise this season. "If only Wanny had this roster...." Hilarious. Of course, at the same time no credit will be given to Nix for the players on the roster.

[Kirby Jackson]

This thread is confusing. It feels like someone is actually defending the job that Wanny did? The guy was the WORST ever. He did have some talent and pumped out stretches that were as bad as ANY TEAM EVER!! The game and prep are so much different than when he was good. He was either too stubborn or too stupid to adjust. I find it actually mind blowing that anyone would even try to defend the job he did.

 

At the time of the hire I was actually excited about it. That was until I talked with a friend who is a die hard Pitt fan. He was talking about how vanilla his schemes were. He was right. Wannstedt's defense was pretty much the equivalent of Jauron's offense.

[The Big Cat]

This thread is confusing. It feels like someone is actually defending the job that Wanny did? The guy was the WORST ever. He did have some talent and pumped out stretches that were as bad as ANY TEAM EVER!! The game and prep are so much different than when he was good. He was either too stubborn or too stupid to adjust. I find it actually mind blowing that anyone would even try to defend the job he did.

 

At the time of the hire I was actually excited about it. That was until I talked with a friend who is a die hard Pitt fan. He was talking about how vanilla his schemes were. He was right. Wannstedt's defense was pretty much the equivalent of Jauron's offense.

 

We must have the same Pitt friend...

[Mr. WEO]

Aside from defending Kelsay against excessive and unwarranted criticism, what exactly have I crusaded for (or against)?

 

Oh, believe me, I clearly see you and K-9 backtracking quickly so there's an excuse ready when the defense is a pleasant surprise this season. "If only Wanny had this roster...." Hilarious. Of course, at the same time no credit will be given to Nix for the players on the roster.

 

Bactracking from what? Even the new DC is cleaning out Buddy's roster.

 

Enjoy the hilarity.

[The Big Cat]

Bactracking from what? Even the new DC is cleaning out Buddy's roster.

 

Enjoy the hilarity.

 

Wait. So does the GM make roster decisions or do the coordinators?

Edited April 18, 2013 by taC giB ehT

[eball]

Bactracking from what? Even the new DC is cleaning out Buddy's roster.

 

Enjoy the hilarity.

 

What taC giB ehT said.

[Kelly the Dog]

Wait. So does the GM make roster decisions or do the coordinators?

Both. They work hand in hand. I guarantee you that all the guys gone and all the guys gone after were Pettine influenced or approved, more so than Buddy.

[first_and_ten]

 

 

It has been said many times, a GM's main job is to pick a good HC and a good QB. After 3 years, Buddy fired those two guys he had selected in his first year. His drafts have been suspect. He made Mario Williams the highest paid D player in history.

 

 

 

Nix was promoted to GM in December of 2009, so he only hired one head coach, Chan Gailey. It can be argued that Ralph Wilson ( and those who have his ear) made this hire more so than Buddy Nix did.