Mr. WEO Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 It's perfectly fair to fault Nix for putting too much trust in Gailey's judgment. But honestly, I want the GM to let the HC make his choices for a staff. There's no doubt that Gailey was a bad choice for HC, which carried over into poor selections for coordinators, but I don't think the solution for that is for Nix to micromanage the assistant coaching staff. When his new HC misses so badly on DC the GM has to step in before the HC makes the same mistake again.
Joe Miner Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 In going all the way back to the title of the thread, there's really only 2 other people that could have !@#$ed this team as badly as Wanny. 1) Chan 2) Nix Although there may have been a lack of talent on the D, not 1 individual player could have had the impact that Wanny had on the team. It's just not possible. Could a lack of talent overall have a larger impact than a DC? Yes, but the title of the thread said anyone, making the alternative to Wanny an individual, not a group. The only other people that could have had a similar or greater impact on the team were Chan and Nix. Perhaps Brandon, and perhaps even Ralph, but the extent of their actions isn't really known at the fan level as much as the GM, Head coach/OC, and the DC. So I would look at the question and interpret it as which of the 3 !@#$ed the team worse last year: 1) Wanny 2) Chan 3) Nix At this point I'd go with Chan. I think there was better talent than 6 wins. I think poor choices at DC, poor player evaluations, along with poor gameplanning and questionable playcalling screwed this team over royally. From player reactions this preseason, it doesn't seem like the team had an overall winning attitude which the HC is responsible for as well. That's not to say that Nix is off the hook. He better deliver that baby soon, and it better not be ugly. That's also not saying that Wanny didn't !@#$ us. He whored himself out for some free Tempo, and then didn't put out come gametime. And what he did put out was old, wrinkly, and way past it's prime.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 When his new HC misses so badly on DC the GM has to step in before the HC makes the same mistake again. Yeah, because owners, GMs and coaches in the NFL never miss badly on the first hire and then make solid decisions afterwards.
MRW Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 When his new HC misses so badly on DC the GM has to step in before the HC makes the same mistake again. If Nix was not willing to trust Gailey to right the situation, I would rather he fired him and brought in someone he was confident in. I don't think you and I will see eye-to-eye as far the appropriate role of a GM in this situation.
Mr. WEO Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 Yeah, because owners, GMs and coaches in the NFL never miss badly on the first hire and then make solid decisions afterwards. Oh, they certainly do. No argument there. That's how it is. But no excuses for whiffing on HC, DC and then the next DC. After just 3 seasons, Buddy has hired 2 HCs, 2 (or 3 if you count Chan, which everyone here does) OCs and 3 DCs. That's ag uy who has no eye for coaching talent. Spin it any way you want, but I con't imagine any other team with a GM with that track record on it payroll. If Nix was not willing to trust Gailey to right the situation, I would rather he fired him and brought in someone he was confident in. I don't think you and I will see eye-to-eye as far the appropriate role of a GM in this situation. You trust Gailey until after year 2, when any savvy or event cogent GM says "Chan, what the heck's going on here with the D? You said if I hired Wanny, things would get better." That, by any definition, is an NFL GMs job.
MRW Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 Oh, they certainly do. No argument there. That's how it is. But no excuses for whiffing on HC, DC and then the next DC. After just 3 seasons, Buddy has hired 2 HCs, 2 (or 3 if you count Chan, which everyone here does) OCs and 3 DCs. That's ag uy who has no eye for coaching talent. Spin it any way you want, but I con't imagine any other team with a GM with that track record on it payroll. You trust Gailey until after year 2, when any savvy or event cogent GM says "Chan, what the heck's going on here with the D? You said if I hired Wanny, things would get better." That, by any definition, is an NFL GMs job. Sure, evaluating team performance is the GM's job. But as seen above in your reply to Kelly, you continue to conflate the GM's role with the head coach's role. The coach's role is to assemble a staff. I think it's misleading to state that Nix has hired 2 (or 3) OCs and 2 DCs. He has hired 2 HCs, and they have hired assistants for their staff. The distinction is important.
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 Oh, they certainly do. No argument there. That's how it is. But no excuses for whiffing on HC, DC and then the next DC. After just 3 seasons, Buddy has hired 2 HCs, 2 (or 3 if you count Chan, which everyone here does) OCs and 3 DCs. That's ag uy who has no eye for coaching talent. Spin it any way you want, but I con't imagine any other team with a GM with that track record on it payroll. Pioli had a record like this with the Chiefs and got fired after 4 seasons. Haley, Gailey, Crennel, Weis, Muir, Daboll... a regular parade of faces as far as a coaching staff.
eball Posted April 22, 2013 Author Posted April 22, 2013 Why would you assume this is true?? There is no question that Dave Wannstedt appeared at OBD to help with the Defense. He wasn't brought in "to give him a job" or to help with the offensive gameplans. That's just silly. Chan had a quiet arrogance about the offense that clearly manifested itself in last year's bad play calling. So you're saying that Chan never intended to do more than offer Edwards a few suggestions and help out as a position coach? And as the season went on, Chan never asked Wanny to take a bigger role in the defense because he didn't want him to "step on Edward's toes"? That's as crazy as it sounds. Sorry, it's far easier to believe that Wanny had a huge hand in the 2011 D and that is why the 2012 D looked no better--or worse. If you are clinging to the claim that there was no way to predict Wanny would fail as the DC in 2012, then I guess you have to keep repeating the above stuff. I did earlier. Why should I "shut up"? A discussion is ongoing about the predictablility of Wanny's bad coaching. In fact, you started this thread in order to divert heat away from the Nix is a moron posts popping up lately. Why else would you have spontaneously begun a "hey wannstedt was the real cause of all of our problems last year, right fellas?".......in April?? And what kind of a man tells another man to "shut up" in a discussion where everyone is being fairly passionate, but civil? I would never tell you to "shut up". In fact, I would encourage you to start as many threads as possible! You're neither passionate nor civil. You pick fights and then can't back up your assertions. I've attempted in threads past to engage you "civilly" and you can't help yourself. You question why I started this thread now? Perhaps because upon reflection, I became livid thinking about the players on that defense and how outright putrid they were last year, with a DC who did NOTHING to try and change things up. The Bills have gone defense heavy the past three drafts, and Pettine certainly saw the cupboard being full enough to think this is where he can make some hay. You don't understand my perspective because you are on one track only -- Buddy is a buffoon and responsible for everything wrong with the Bills. Go stuff a sock in it.
Orton's Arm Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 The logic being used to argue that it could not be foreseen that Wanny woould be no better than Edwards bends the mind. Everyone agrees that Wanny was brough in solely to help the hopeless Edwards run the defense. He had all that experience and success! So he comes in, devotes a year to improving the D......and the D is still terrible, despite his help and his previous success and his experience. Yet the above posters see it as logical to promote the guy to DC? This makes absolutely no sense. None. And then the same posters say it simply could not be predicted at the time that Wanny is actually not a good defensive coach. Of course, it was completely predictable (and was predicted by more than a few for this exact and obvious reason) after the defense got no better under Wanny's "help". The above posts represent revisionist history. As outsiders, there's no way for us to know what advice Wanny gave to Edwards, or how much of that advice was followed. There may have been philosophical differences between the two. Edwards wanted to run a 3-4, whereas it's clear the only scheme with which Wanny is comfortable is a specific type of 4-3. It's quite possible that whatever advice Wanny had to offer started with, "Line up in a 4-3, rush four, and drop seven back into coverage." On those plays when that advice was actually followed, it may have produced good results. Not because of any intrinsic superiority of Wanny's scheme, but because offenses had probably spent more time preparing for Edwards' 3-4 than Wanny's 4-3. The correct yardstick for Wanny is not how well or badly he may have performed in the role of defensive advisor back in 2011. It's how well he did as defensive coordinator in his various stints around the league. If you have superior athletes, you can mask the flaws of a simple and unimaginative scheme. That's why Wannestedt enjoyed success in Dallas. To evaluate his performance as a defensive coordinator, you'd need to dig deeper than defensive stats. You'd need to watch a lot of film, while critically evaluating the level of creativity, mental flexibility, ingenuity, and competence that his play calling seemed to reveal.
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 http://sports.espn.g...=bayless/041112 Seems like this article (from 2004) may be in order again. Now, I'm not even convinced he was anything special as a defensive coordinator. The tough truth: He was an overachieving offensive lineman from Pitt who was no more than a meat-and-potatoes thinker as a head coach. All he really had going for him was that he looked the part and, more important, that he was Jimmy Johnson's best friend. http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-10-27/sports/9510260555_1_bears-defense-dave-wannstedt-super-bowl-winning
3rdand12 Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 Eball , i liked the title. To define wtf happened to the team while dear dave had the defensive reins is too difficult a task. What he put on the field, regardless of talent was abysmal. And then to make it worse, it just stayed abysmal. My name is eric and i thought we were going to have one heck of a defense. I should have known better from when he was "coaching" linebackers. I still have a koolaid hangover. Go Pettine
JohnC Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 You're neither passionate nor civil. You pick fights and then can't back up your assertions. I've attempted in threads past to engage you "civilly" and you can't help yourself. You question why I started this thread now? Perhaps because upon reflection, I became livid thinking about the players on that defense and how outright putrid they were last year, with a DC who did NOTHING to try and change things up. The Bills have gone defense heavy the past three drafts, and Pettine certainly saw the cupboard being full enough to think this is where he can make some hay. You don't understand my perspective because you are on one track only -- Buddy is a buffoon and responsible for everything wrong with the Bills. Go stuff a sock in it. Pettine is not a fool. He is going to an organization where he has full authority for the defense. That was not the case in NY where Ryan, the HC, had the major say on defense, or at least the final say. There was a flip situation in Buffalo last year where Chan, the HC, was for all intent and purposes the OC. For the most part coaches and coordinators (not HCs) are on short term or year to year deals. It is well known that Buddy Ryan is in a very precarious situation now that there is a new GM who is in a rebuilding mode. So from a job security standpoint taking a job with Marrone was putting himself in a better situation. Don't get me wrong. I like the Marrone hire and I very much like the Pettine hire. But Pettine didn't leave the Jets because he was going to a team with a powerhouse defense. He was hooking up with Marrone because it was a better employment situation for him. Let me state up front and very bluntly that I have little regard for Nix as a GM. He selected the prior HC, been involved in three very average drafts and was most responsible for putting together this roster. His record is a dismal 16-32. During his stewardship his team has been nearly incapable of beating any team with a winning record. When the Bills played two superior teams last year, Seahawks and 49ers, they were demolished. It was a contest of men against prebuescent boys. It was embarrassing. In three years this clueless GM made little attempt to address the qb position, the most important position in the game. He passed on good quality qb prospects for other very average prospects. His lassitude in finding a real qb bordered on malfeasance and nonfeasance. Making a defense for a GM using the argument that everything he has done has not gone wrong is not a ringing endorsement of his record. The bottom line is the bottom line i.e. the record. It is dismal. There is still a long way to go to get to the point of respectability. Even if Nix has a magnificent draft and even if he does a masterful job in acquiring good value free agents this offseason he has set this franchise back by not acting smartly in his first three years to establish a solid foundation to build on.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Don't get me wrong. I like the Marrone hire and I very much like the Pettine hire. But Pettine didn't leave the Jets because he was going to a team with a powerhouse defense. He was hooking up with Marrone because it was a better employment situation for him. And you know this, how? Pettine had decided to leave after the season before the season was over. The Bills situation was attractive to him on many levels, not the least of which was having Mario, Dareus, Kyle, Mark Anderson, Byrd and Gilmore on the roster. That was very likely the biggest factor. I'm sure Marrone, Hackett, Whaley and even Brandon were an attractive proposition, too. Young aggressive/progressive guys. As well as Buffalo being a northeast blue collar football town like he is a product of.
JohnC Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) And you know this, how? Pettine had decided to leave after the season before the season was over. The Bills situation was attractive to him on many levels, not the least of which was having Mario, Dareus, Kyle, Mark Anderson, Byrd and Gilmore on the roster. That was very likely the biggest factor. I'm sure Marrone, Hackett, Whaley and even Brandon were an attractive proposition, too. Young aggressive/progressive guys. As well as Buffalo being a northeast blue collar football town like he is a product of. Pettine didn't have the full authority as a DC in NY that he would have in Buffalo. Ryan focused his attention mostly on defense with little input on offense. Pettine expressed prior to his last year (as you noted) that he would like to be in a different coaching situation as a DC. The following attachment indicates that Pettine was ready to leave and was going to leave (end of contract with no extension) even before he knew that there was an opening with the Bills. http://www.nypost.co...8DAK8fvPIlIz6VM Edited April 23, 2013 by JohnC
Kelly the Dog Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Pettine didn't have the full authority as a DC in NY that he would have in Buffalo. Ryan focused his attention mostly on defense with little input on offense. Pettine expressed prior to his last year (as you noted) that he would like to be in a different coaching situation as a DC. The following attachment indicates that Pettine was ready to leave even before he knew that there was an opening with the Bills. http://www.nypost.co...8DAK8fvPIlIz6VM I know. I was commenting on why you assumed that Marrone's situation was his primary motivation as opposed to the players he would have to work with or the team/city he was going to? He was going to get to be his own man wherever he went as the DC outside of places where the HC is a dominant defensive guy already (and he likely would not have even considered that). In fact, he would have had more autonomy with Gailey and coaches like him than he is going to have with Marrone.
JohnC Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 I know. I was commenting on why you assumed that Marrone's situation was his primary motivation as opposed to the players he would have to work with or the team/city he was going to? He was going to get to be his own man wherever he went as the DC outside of places where the HC is a dominant defensive guy already (and he likely would not have even considered that). In fact, he would have had more autonomy with Gailey and coaches like him than he is going to have with Marrone. Pettine's primary motivation was getting a job because he was out of a job. Whether he had a dynamo defense to work with or a rebuilding defense to work with he was going to a place that offered him a job and presented him with a situation that gave him more authority as a DC than he had with the Jets. Buddy Ryan had a lot of say on defense. That type of HC involvement in the defense would be minimal, especially when his new HC has roots as an OL coach.
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 And you know this, how? Pettine had decided to leave after the season before the season was over. The Bills situation was attractive to him on many levels, not the least of which was having Mario, Dareus, Kyle, Mark Anderson, Byrd and Gilmore on the roster. That was very likely the biggest factor. I'm sure Marrone, Hackett, Whaley and even Brandon were an attractive proposition, too. Young aggressive/progressive guys. As well as Buffalo being a northeast blue collar football town like he is a product of. The idea that coaches go to situations that are in disarray because of the talent there seems a little stretched. If that were the case, some teams would have an impossible time finding any coaches. But, the reality is that bad teams do sign well-regarded, proven NFL head coaches, who, without question, plan to re-work the roster according to their own designs. Players come and go, so trying to marry a snapshot of a certain roster would be short-sighted. The Bills and Pettine have already begun dismantling the defense from last year. It is in Pettine's own best interest to get out of New York and to work for a boss that will let him have more leeway. Pettine seems to want to prove he can build a defense with his own coaching abilities so he can continue to advance in his own career.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Pettine's primary motivation was getting a job because he was out of a job. Whether he had a dynamo defense to work with or a rebuilding defense to work with he was going to a place that offered him a job and presented him with a situation that gave him more authority as a DC than he had with the Jets. Buddy Ryan had a lot of say on defense. That type of HC involvement in the defense would be minimal, especially when his new HC has roots as an OL coach. He would have been the most sought after DC out there as a strict DC, or one of the very top for sure. He was easily going to get a job. It was only a matter of where. The idea that coaches go to situations that are in disarray because of the talent there seems a little stretched. If that were the case, some teams would have an impossible time finding any coaches. But, the reality is that bad teams do sign well-regarded, proven NFL head coaches, who, without question, plan to re-work the roster according to their own designs. Players come and go, so trying to marry a snapshot of a certain roster would be short-sighted. The Bills and Pettine have already begun dismantling the defense from last year. It is in Pettine's own best interest to get out of New York and to work for a boss that will let him have more leeway. Pettine seems to want to prove he can build a defense with his own coaching abilities so he can continue to advance in his own career. Of course. I agree with every bit of that. But to me, and from what Pettine said when he was hired, the Bills were a perfect opportunity because of three separate distinct things, all of which the BIlls offered--which were good players on defense, young aggressive coaches and organization he got along with and liked where they were going, and the fact Pettine is an old school football guy from a small town 30 miles from Philly, and football crazed Buffalo was attractive to him. he would have had several offers. I think Mario Williams and a couple other guys were the biggest of the three reasons. I highly doubt if it were last year (which would have been before they signed Mario and Anderson and drafted Gilmore) that he would have thought it was nearly as an attractive opportunity and signed right away. He would have considered a bunch of teams.
Orton's Arm Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 http://sports.espn.g...=bayless/041112 Seems like this article (from 2004) may be in order again. http://articles.sun-...er-bowl-winning A good article! Skip Bayless is a far more insightful writer than I might have expected from this song. I hadn't realized that Wannestedt had basically been Jimmy Johnson's Curtis Modkins right up until he turned that into a head coaching gig with Chicago.
JohnC Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 He would have been the most sought after DC out there as a strict DC, or one of the very top for sure. He was easily going to get a job. It was only a matter of where. Of course. I agree with every bit of that. But to me, and from what Pettine said when he was hired, the Bills were a perfect opportunity because of three separate distinct things, all of which the BIlls offered--which were good players on defense, young aggressive coaches and organization he got along with and liked where they were going, and the fact Pettine is an old school football guy from a small town 30 miles from Philly, and football crazed Buffalo was attractive to him. he would have had several offers. What the heck did you expect him to say? What he said is the same scripted pabulum that every new coaching hire says. ]
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