Did anyone $&^@ this team more last year than Dave Wannstedt?

[QCity]

So when Moore was getting his ass handed to him on running plays, it was because he wasn't buying into the system? When Wilson was late getting over to help or come up in run support, it was because he just didn't like the defense? Or when Barnett got repeatedly burned in pass coverage, it was because Wanny didn't scheme him correctly? How about when BOTH A Williams and Wilson were getting burned on deep balls? And Bradhams youthful over-pursuit, was that because he had a philosophical difference with the design? And if only Sheppard was in a better scheme, he would have been so much faster to the hole? Never mind he was just as slow in the 34 the previous year.

 

It had nothing to do with "buying into the system" or "philosophical differences." It had to do with the entire defensive gameplan as a whole. You cite numerous instances of players getting beat in coverage. Nothing helps coverage like a pass rush. And how did Wanny choose to generate a pass rush? In the most predictable way possible - rush 4 and drop 7. That was a high school defense's gameplan. Where was the misdirection? Forget our blitz percentage, where were the fake blitzes? How many disguised blitzes did you see last year? Was there even a corner-blitz or safely-blitz in the playbook? How often did we bring DBs up to the line and pull them back into coverage to force an audible? When the other team knows what you are going to do, you have already lost the battle.

 

It was a passive defense. A defense designed to react to the other team's offense. That is such a terrible idea I can't even fathom how he lasted the season. Will willfully let another team's offense dictate play on the field. We were embarrassingly beat by 3 rookie quarterbacks because of this generic, bland philosophy.

 

And don't get me started on the rigidity of Wanny's planning. His defense had zero flexibility. Let's see, are we getting our a$$ kicked at halftime? Better bear down and try harder guys, because we are rolling out the the same defensive gameplan in the second half! Hopefully they will bench a few starters and ease up on us.

 

And your argument is that if the defense improves this year it will be because we cut Barnett and Wilson and signed Manny Lawson? Are you insane? Our defense will improve this year (can't get worse) and it will be because of Mike Pettine. It will be an aggressive attacking defense that will attempt to dictate what the offense does. It will show multiple fronts designed to confuse opposing OCs and QBs. Our blitzes will be heavily disguised and difficult to pick up. There will be heavy run blitzing and you will see our SS spend more time in the box. How do I know this? Because I've watched Pettine's defense do this for the last 4 years.

 

His hiring in Tampa Bay (as ST coach, of all things) reeks of more cronyism as Schiano worked for Wanny in Chicago.

 

Absolutely, and the only reason he was hired here was cronyism. Chan Gailey couldn't pick a defensive coordinator if Bill Parcells fell out of the sky and landed on his head.

[Mr. WEO]

 

Absolutely, and the only reason he was hired here was cronyism. Chan Gailey couldn't pick a defensive coordinator if Bill Parcells fell out of the sky and landed on his head.

 

Apparently couldn't pick an offensive coordinator either.

[Kirby Jackson]

It had nothing to do with "buying into the system" or "philosophical differences." It had to do with the entire defensive gameplan as a whole. You cite numerous instances of players getting beat in coverage. Nothing helps coverage like a pass rush. And how did Wanny choose to generate a pass rush? In the most predictable way possible - rush 4 and drop 7. That was a high school defense's gameplan. Where was the misdirection? Forget our blitz percentage, where were the fake blitzes? How many disguised blitzes did you see last year? Was there even a corner-blitz or safely-blitz in the playbook? How often did we bring DBs up to the line and pull them back into coverage to force an audible? When the other team knows what you are going to do, you have already lost the battle.

 

It was a passive defense. A defense designed to react to the other team's offense. That is such a terrible idea I can't even fathom how he lasted the season. Will willfully let another team's offense dictate play on the field. We were embarrassingly beat by 3 rookie quarterbacks because of this generic, bland philosophy.

 

And don't get me started on the rigidity of Wanny's planning. His defense had zero flexibility. Let's see, are we getting our a$$ kicked at halftime? Better bear down and try harder guys, because we are rolling out the the same defensive gameplan in the second half! Hopefully they will bench a few starters and ease up on us.

 

And your argument is that if the defense improves this year it will be because we cut Barnett and Wilson and signed Manny Lawson? Are you insane? Our defense will improve this year (can't get worse) and it will be because of Mike Pettine. It will be an aggressive attacking defense that will attempt to dictate what the offense does. It will show multiple fronts designed to confuse opposing OCs and QBs. Our blitzes will be heavily disguised and difficult to pick up. There will be heavy run blitzing and you will see our SS spend more time in the box. How do I know this? Because I've watched Pettine's defense do this for the last 4 years.

 

 

 

You basically said everything in a few paragraphs that took me 10 pages to try to spit out. I could not agree with you more in your assessment.

[eball]

Poor Dave Wannstedt, wrists in shackles, unable to prevent the horrid players on the Bills' defense from forming even an adequate unit.

[Rubes]

Poor Dave Wannstedt, wrists in shackles, unable to prevent the horrid players on the Bills' defense from forming even an adequate unit.

 

They weren't even just a bad defense. They were an historically bad defense. Almost unfathomably bad.

 

 

And yeah, you heard me. An historically bad.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Rubes

[RevWarRifleman]

The more I hear out of defensive players as they're around the new staff, the angrier I become at Wannstedt for his unemotional and uninspired tenure as the Bills' DC. Say what you want about Gailey's playcalling and Fitz's inconsistency, but nobody did more to screw the Bills' chance at a good season than Wanny. The Buffalo News article on Bradham this morning is just the latest example of the changed atmosphere and intensity around the team.

 

I hear many of you whining about lack of talent, but coaching DOES matter.

Well put, Eball.

[dpberr]

Of course Wannstedt is the answer here. Many of those games lost last year was due to the predictable defense being carved up like Thanksgiving turkey.

 

That's why you saw the Bills defense get shredded after halftime. The other team adjusts, Wannstedt did not.

 

Frankly, it's a whole coaching issue for the entirity of Dick and Chan's time here. The Bills would start out hot in September but once teams got tape on them, it was all over.

[Mr. WEO]

Poor Dave Wannstedt, wrists in shackles, unable to prevent the horrid players on the Bills' defense from forming even an adequate unit.

 

Wannstadt was brought in by Buddy for one reason only: to help out the helpless George Edwards on defense. Despite Wanny's expert help, the defense continued to be a disaster, yet Buddy took that as a signal that it was OK to promote him to DC. Completely predictable disaster followed.

 

If Nix hadn't blundered into Wanny as DC, you wouldn't be bitching about this now. And, again, this is only one of Nix's boneheaded moves over the three years that has us on our 2nd HC, 2nd (or 3rd) OC and 3rd DC....after only 3 season!

 

As bad as Wanny was, it's not his fault for picking up the phone. Who didn't know what they were getting with this guy..other than a small number of homers here?

[MRW]

Wannstadt was brought in by Buddy for one reason only: to help out the helpless George Edwards on defense. Despite Wanny's expert help, the defense continued to be a disaster, yet Buddy took that as a signal that it was OK to promote him to DC. Completely predictable disaster followed.

 

If Nix hadn't blundered into Wanny as DC, you wouldn't be bitching about this now. And, again, this is only one of Nix's boneheaded moves over the three years that has us on our 2nd HC, 2nd (or 3rd) OC and 3rd DC....after only 3 season!

 

As bad as Wanny was, it's not his fault for picking up the phone. Who didn't know what they were getting with this guy..other than a small number of homers here?

Huh, and here I thought Gailey picked his staff. Any link to back up your contention that Nix brought in Wannstedt?

 

Note, I am not claiming that Nix is not ultimately responsible for the performance of the coaching staff, but I think it matters that he is not the one picking assistant coaches.

[eball]

Wannstadt was brought in by Buddy for one reason only: to help out the helpless George Edwards on defense. Despite Wanny's expert help, the defense continued to be a disaster, yet Buddy took that as a signal that it was OK to promote him to DC. Completely predictable disaster followed.

 

If Nix hadn't blundered into Wanny as DC, you wouldn't be bitching about this now. And, again, this is only one of Nix's boneheaded moves over the three years that has us on our 2nd HC, 2nd (or 3rd) OC and 3rd DC....after only 3 season!

 

As bad as Wanny was, it's not his fault for picking up the phone. Who didn't know what they were getting with this guy..other than a small number of homers here?

 

Can't wait for you to praise the job Pettine and staff do this season, and fail to give Nix a shred of benefit for the roster. And you call ME a crusader?

[Orton's Arm]

I actually thought Merriman played much better than Kyle Moore and should have been in there a lot more. Not that Merriman was so good, mind you. He wasn't. But he was decent and he had some containment at times, and Moore was just terrible. I also thought Leo should have played a lot more, as well as Carrington.

It had nothing to do with "buying into the system" or "philosophical differences." It had to do with the entire defensive gameplan as a whole. You cite numerous instances of players getting beat in coverage. Nothing helps coverage like a pass rush. And how did Wanny choose to generate a pass rush? In the most predictable way possible - rush 4 and drop 7. That was a high school defense's gameplan. Where was the misdirection? Forget our blitz percentage, where were the fake blitzes? How many disguised blitzes did you see last year? Was there even a corner-blitz or safely-blitz in the playbook? How often did we bring DBs up to the line and pull them back into coverage to force an audible? When the other team knows what you are going to do, you have already lost the battle.

 

It was a passive defense. A defense designed to react to the other team's offense. That is such a terrible idea I can't even fathom how he lasted the season. Will willfully let another team's offense dictate play on the field. We were embarrassingly beat by 3 rookie quarterbacks because of this generic, bland philosophy.

 

And don't get me started on the rigidity of Wanny's planning. His defense had zero flexibility. Let's see, are we getting our a$$ kicked at halftime? Better bear down and try harder guys, because we are rolling out the the same defensive gameplan in the second half! Hopefully they will bench a few starters and ease up on us.

 

And your argument is that if the defense improves this year it will be because we cut Barnett and Wilson and signed Manny Lawson? Are you insane? Our defense will improve this year (can't get worse) and it will be because of Mike Pettine. It will be an aggressive attacking defense that will attempt to dictate what the offense does. It will show multiple fronts designed to confuse opposing OCs and QBs. Our blitzes will be heavily disguised and difficult to pick up. There will be heavy run blitzing and you will see our SS spend more time in the box. How do I know this? Because I've watched Pettine's defense do this for the last 4 years.

 

 

 

Absolutely, and the only reason he was hired here was cronyism. Chan Gailey couldn't pick a defensive coordinator if Bill Parcells fell out of the sky and landed on his head.

 

I'll agree with K-9 up to a point. Some of the defensive starters didn't provide starter-caliber play. Wanny had problems not of his own making.

 

On offense, Gailey also had a less than optimal player mix. There was no one at QB, only one real WR, injuries on the OL, injuries at RB, etc. Gailey used creativity and ingenuity to deal with those problems. He squeezed a lot more production out of that offense than its talent level warranted. Were there lost opportunities for Wannestedt to do the same on defense?

 

I multi-quoted the above two posts because they represent clear thinking about the kinds of opportunities Wannestedt should have--but did not--take advantage of.

[White Linen]

Wannstadt was brought in by Buddy for one reason only: to help out the helpless George Edwards on defense. Despite Wanny's expert help, the defense continued to be a disaster, yet Buddy took that as a signal that it was OK to promote him to DC. Completely predictable disaster followed.

 

If Nix hadn't blundered into Wanny as DC, you wouldn't be bitching about this now. And, again, this is only one of Nix's boneheaded moves over the three years that has us on our 2nd HC, 2nd (or 3rd) OC and 3rd DC....after only 3 season!

 

As bad as Wanny was, it's not his fault for picking up the phone. Who didn't know what they were getting with this guy..other than a small number of homers here?

 

It's not his fault all he did was answer the phone? What about the part that he accepted the job and didn't do it?

[Nick the Greek]

Makes ya kinda miss George Edwards eh?

Edited April 20, 2013 by ldandria

[BillsBytheBay]

Wannestedt for sure was on e of the real issues last year, but the biggest guy who fxxxed us was Mario and his $100M. He was so unmotivated how could anyone else be at the top of their game. Kyle Williams didn't look the same...not because of DW but I believe stupor Mario.

unmotivated his way to ten sacks. Just layed down and happened to knock over a QB, or two, or ten.

I agree he didn't play up to "expectations", but come on.

[K-9]

It had nothing to do with "buying into the system" or "philosophical differences." It had to do with the entire defensive gameplan as a whole. You cite numerous instances of players getting beat in coverage. Nothing helps coverage like a pass rush. And how did Wanny choose to generate a pass rush? In the most predictable way possible - rush 4 and drop 7. That was a high school defense's gameplan. Where was the misdirection? Forget our blitz percentage, where were the fake blitzes? How many disguised blitzes did you see last year? Was there even a corner-blitz or safely-blitz in the playbook? How often did we bring DBs up to the line and pull them back into coverage to force an audible? When the other team knows what you are going to do, you have already lost the battle.

 

It was a passive defense. A defense designed to react to the other team's offense. That is such a terrible idea I can't even fathom how he lasted the season. Will willfully let another team's offense dictate play on the field. We were embarrassingly beat by 3 rookie quarterbacks because of this generic, bland philosophy.

 

And don't get me started on the rigidity of Wanny's planning. His defense had zero flexibility. Let's see, are we getting our a$$ kicked at halftime? Better bear down and try harder guys, because we are rolling out the the same defensive gameplan in the second half! Hopefully they will bench a few starters and ease up on us.

 

And your argument is that if the defense improves this year it will be because we cut Barnett and Wilson and signed Manny Lawson? Are you insane? Our defense will improve this year (can't get worse) and it will be because of Mike Pettine. It will be an aggressive attacking defense that will attempt to dictate what the offense does. It will show multiple fronts designed to confuse opposing OCs and QBs. Our blitzes will be heavily disguised and difficult to pick up. There will be heavy run blitzing and you will see our SS spend more time in the box. How do I know this? Because I've watched Pettine's defense do this for the last 4 years.

 

I think this is a fair post and it makes sense on a lot of levels, particularly with regard to the passive nature of Wanny's defense. That is indeed one thing he could have done differently. I still ask myself why he wasn't more aggressive and, AGAIN, I think the answer lies with the personnel he had in his back seven more than anything else. Especially his LB corp and young CBs. He had little faith faith in them. Should he have let them cut their teeth more? Perhaps. But, AGAIN, given their performance in executing the simplest of schemes, I think it's understandable, if not advisable, most of the time.

 

Our front four ranked high as a unit in sacks by a DL last year. Wanny was getting the production he expected, for the most part, out of that unit. The lack of stunts and other games was due, AGAIN, to his lack of faith in his LBs. You can't run many stunts, etc. when your LBs are so poor in their gap discipline. I won't accept any argument to suggest they were.

 

While I agree it's difficult to play against teams when they know what you are going to do, it's even more of a disadvantage when teams know what you CAN'T do. And given our lack of abundant talent, teams knew a ton about what we could NOT do. Maybe that sounds silly to people who think you just need to disguise your intentions better, but talk to a coach sometime about that concept.

 

To the bold text, that hasn't been my argument at all. That's a ridiculous assumption. But I'm happy Wilson, Barnett, and Moore are no longer on the squad as they were just not very good at all last season. Is it your argument that Pettine would have made them Pro Bowlers?

 

We can agree that our defense won't be any worse. That's a given. And I've always liked Ryan's and, by extension, Pettine's schemes. But I also know what kind of personnel he needs to run it effectively and with the kind of success it's enjoyed over the years in Baltimore and NY. I'm not convinced we have the pieces in place yet, especially at the LB and SS positions. And McKelvin is gonna be an adventure on his island given what we've seen to date. It's an aggresive D to be sure. And fun to watch. But It'll be interesting to me to see if Pettine has the faith Wanny lacked in his players to implement all of his blitz packages. I think that will reveal itself quickly early in the season. I hope fans are patient with the transition. It's not an easy defense to master and it requires experienced players to be on the same page each and every down. Another reason why Wanny may have been so vanilla in his looks last year. And of course, they still have to make the play when it's there to be made. I didn't see nearly enough of that last season.

 

Bottom line is this: there is no scheme on the planet that corrects arm tackling, over pursuit, lack of speed, and missing assignments. It's assumed your players are sound in the basic fundamentals of the game and possess the skills necessary to carry them out. We didn't have nearly enough players on defense that did that on a consistent basis last season, regardless of Wanny's passive nature.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Bills4]

To sum it up:

 

All the Bills needed this year was a new d coordinator to come in and un-f^ck themselves since wanny was so bad. Instead, we have a hot up and comer from the Rex Ryan bloodline who needs to make a name for himself. So for me, I couldnt have asked for better. Pettine would not have come here if he did not feel he had alot of assets to work with on this D. This is his shot to make a name for himself. For me, thats a vote of confidence that we have talent on that side of the ball.

 

I would love to watch a team who makes some big plays on defense. Watching a good defense is so fun. Its been a while since we had a good defense. Its even more fun watching a great defense. The Bryce Paup years were a lot of fun.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Bills4

[Kelly the Dog]

Ultimately, IMO, the defense sucked from equal parts 1] Wanny's scheme, game planning and play-calling sucked, 2] Glaring holes and deficiencies at 3-4 positions, 3] Terrible seasons from decent players like Barnett, Wilson, Kyle, and hopeful guys like Sheppard and Williams, and 4] a string of injuries and bad luck with Mario's wrist, Dareus' tragedy, Kyle's feet, Mark Anderson missing most of the season, combined with a crappy offense etc.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

To sum it up:

 

All the Bills needed this year was a new d coordinator to come in and un-f^ck themselves since Wanny was so bad.

 

Instead, we have a hot up and comer from the Rex Ryan bloodline who needs to make a name for himself. So for me, I couldnt have asked for better. Pettine would not have come here if he did not feel he had alot of assets to work with on this D. This is his shot to make a name for himself. For me, thats a vote of confidence that we have talent on that side of the ball.

 

^^^^^^^^^ This is one of the better points I've read on this forum in the past several days.

 

Ultimately, IMO, the defense sucked from equal parts 1] Wanny's scheme, game planning and play-calling sucked, 2] Glaring holes and deficiencies at 3-4 positions, 3] Terrible seasons from decent players like Barnett, Wilson, Kyle, and hopeful guys like Sheppard and Williams, and 4] a string of injuries and bad luck with Mario's wrist, Dareus' tragedy, Kyle's feet, Mark Anderson missing most of the season, combined with a crappy offense etc.

 

Breaking it down like that does very little for me because it steers the discussion towards the idea that Wanny's sole weakness was that he was outschemed and outsmarted, which is certainly the case.

 

But he also had somewhat of a role in determining which players made the final roster.

 

He also had a large role in motivating the players.

 

So as to the people lessening the blame on Wanny by pointing out personnel weaknesses (lack of talent) or motivational weaknesses (underperformance of players), Wanny had a role in these areas too.

 

Let's just say he pushed all the wrong buttons.

 

I look for the Bills D to be dramatically improved, even if the talent is only marginally improved.

 

edit: And yes, 12 months ago I was optimistic that Wanny would be able to turn this defense around.

Edited April 20, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Gray Beard]

"43's the Mike 43's the Mike"

What more do we need to hear to realize what a failure Wannstedt was?

No adjustments, no reaction.

Keep doing the same thing and believe that somehow it will be different this time.

[Kelly the Dog]

^^^^^^^^^ This is one of the better points I've read on this forum in the past several days.

 

 

 

Breaking it down like that does very little for me because it steers the discussion towards the idea that Wanny's sole weakness was that he was outschemed and outsmarted, which is certainly the case.

 

But he also had somewhat of a role in determining which players made the final roster.

 

He also had a large role in motivating the players.

 

So as to the people lessening the blame on Wanny by pointing out personnel weaknesses (lack of talent) or motivational weaknesses (underperformance of players), Wanny had a role in these areas too.

 

Let's just say he pushed all the wrong buttons.

 

I look for the Bills D to be dramatically improved, even if the talent is only marginally improved.

 

edit: And yes, 12 months ago I was optimistic that Wanny would be able to turn this defense around.

I understand what you're saying but what you said puts all of the blame on Wanny. Sheppard and Williams flat out sucked. He didn't have a healthy Mario the first five game, a strong Dareus, a healthy Kyle, or Anderson for more than 5 games. His entire defense was predicated on those four guys getting substantial pressure and they just didn't. Some of it was his fault and a large portion wasn't.