freester Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 My head will explode if we draft a safety at 8. Safety is among the least important positions. Terrible drafts are the main reason we our the worst organization in the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I can understand the need for ss, but why so high, especially with Scott & Searcy? There are good safeties up through rd. 4. As far as qb. There is no way Kolb lasts a full season. He takes too many needless hits and too many sacks and Jackson is horrible. Therefore, a qb is imperitive. One that can play this season, because he's gonna have to. You especially want him playing this year because a new coaching staff and young qb always get a mulligan in their first year. The Bills know who their guy is. If they feel they need to select him in rd. 1, so beit. If rd.3 so beit... but their guy better be there, and they better be right. If Lane Johnson is there and the Bills draft him it will help in keeping Kolb upright and on the field. The Bills drafting a safety at 8 is BLASPHEMY! This team and the defense can suffice without drafting a safety high. They can not get by without addressing the offensive side of the ball. This team need a " QB of the future" and need to put as much help around him as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyto83TD Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 The article is moronic. LB's and CB's who can cover are a bigger need than a SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 My head will explode if we draft a safety at 8. Safety is among the least important positions. Terrible drafts are the main reason we our the worst organization in the league given all the hoopla over Byrd...you'd think this board thought differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills4 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Mods, if you feel the need to merge this I will not be insulted! Saw this JoeB article in another thread and thought about adding to that thread. I chose not to because I did not want to hijack the thread. I know many here value my defensive stuff, so here is the response I wrote him. I kind of feel like a dork, but I would be interested in hearing his feedback on my feedback and welcome all ya'll to give some, too... http://www.wgr550.co...tentId=12795899 Joe, I just read the article on adding Vaccaro in the draft. It was well written, very sound in logic and goes along with something I have been saying for a long time about the league and where I see it headed. First off, though, I would like to add in that I got the link from TwoBillsDrive.com, and our forum there. I am going to guess you have heard of it...how could have you have not? Anyway, if you ever look or know it, my handle is pretty much the same there - JBoyst62. I am somewhat of a defensive specialist to many, and credit myself for being knowledgeable on the system. Without getting lengthy I see a few interesting things to point out that will back your belief on the importance of a good SS. When we drafted Whitner is was more of a running league then it is today and we needed a run stuffing RB badly. Coincidentally, we really needed one last year as Wanny's D crapped the bed. To get on a tangent this is because Wanny was a fool using KWilliams and MDareus as space eating DT's that were to hold the line and push the action to the edge and what was supposed to be two athletic and stuffing DE's. When Anderson went down we had to rely on backups that were less capable to do this, but still, maintained the game plan. Where we failed is the middle - KWilliams and MDareus - is that they got run all over. They are penetrating players who are good at beating their man. MDareus had a bad year, personal problems or whatever, we need more of him. Wanny's scheme had these guys way out of position/ability and that left the LB's to get mugged. A layman would think the problem was the LB's not realizing the problem was the scheme, the out of position players and the lack of suitable defenders in the backfield. LB is not the biggest need, to get back on subject. The league now employs TE's to stretch seams, get outside the hashes and and move the old fashioned zone coverages. There is no way anyone in their right mind uses a FS to cover that TE. A SS is a must, and I thought Bryan Scott was that guy last year and think he could be that guy next year in Pettine's unique schemes using 3 Safeties. I do not know how good Searcy is going to be, I did not see enough of what I needed to last year and there is the possibility of AWilliams going to SS, too. However, I am done with trying to convert players to SS no matter how "natural" they may be - George Wilson was very good there a few years back but he got exposed last year in the most basic and natural parts of the SS game. That is why we need Vaccaro, that is why we need to make defense a priority. If 24 TD's from Fitz last year and still lose games like we did then we know defense is the biggest problem. We need to stop teams from scoring. The most interesting event of 2013 in my opinion is the helmet rule. I had thought that that this team would be shifting to a power running game in the next 3 seasons because teams were getting so small, fast, and focusing on the pass so much leaving themselves exposed to the run much like we were against the Pats last year. The helmet rule will change that, in theory, if practiced responsibly and fairly. No longer will you be allowed to bowl your way 10 yards down field, you will need elusiveness and the ability to see lanes. In our case we are set...the first, elusiveness being CJ Spiller and the second, vision - Fred Jackson. Although, just typing CJ's name means he is already winded and it is time to spell him, we need to play him more regardless of what Chan said, but that's another topic. It still comes back to why we need a real safety, an all purpose SS - as you pointed out, all the reasons. We do not need a guy who can lay the wood, a LaRon Landry type as much as we need someone who can shift on a dime and cut off down field runners should MDareus and KWilliams not bounce back. This is why we did not need to get a big FA linebacker, although I would like to take a look at Darryl Smith in a few weeks if he is still available. Our problem is not the LB's, we have a lot of options now. Our problem is not the CB's, but we could use one. Our problem is what happens in the middle and there are two glaring holes there - DT and SS. We have addressed the DT issue with Branch and we hope KWilliams and MDareus get back to 2011 form. That means SS is the biggest need on our defense - possibly a higher value then any other position. Your article needs to echo across the Bills nation because it is 100% dead on. If the Bills go QB in the first it will be done just to appease the fans and I will consider it a bad move regardless of the outcome. Thanks for your great article and I apologize for writing such a long article. Jboyst62 respect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Saw this JoeB article in another thread and thought about adding to that thread. I chose not to because I did not want to hijack the thread. I know many here value my defensive stuff, so here is the response I wrote him. Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa...you're not Joe B? That explains some awkward emails... On a more serious note, my head would not explode if the Bills took him, with the caveat that if a QB they *really* like is there at 8, and have any doubts that he wouldn't be there at 41. Joe B's reasoning seems fairly sound: Patterson seemed to be an afterthought on the invites, no one except Milliner is worth that high at CB, and there already is competition, our free agent additions and scheme shift mean that our front seven will be in completely different (and hopefully better) roles and my head WILL explode if we take a guard when there's so much else we can do. I do think 8 is slightly high to take him, but with all the "trade back" talk I'm hearing I would love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 There can be little doubt that a great safety who can cover and lay the wood in run support would do wonders for this D. If we were talking Barron I might agree. Don't see Vaccaro as in the same class of player and the Texas program really makes me very nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggerdaddynj Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Go back and look at the Jets' past rosters with Ryan and Pettine and please tell me where you find the big name safeties except from their brief lucky grab of Laron Landry for all of a year. The defensive scheme made due with lesser talents at S. The one thing they always did was get pressure on the QB and they did so because they were able to put Revis and Cromartie out there (especially thanks to Revis Island and Cromartie held his own this year). The Jets' safeties during Ryan's reign were not the key to their success (serviceable at best and we have that AT LEAST--Byrd actually gives us more IMHO--remember, Laron Landry was there for one year and he was so essential to the Jets' success they let him go). Searcy needs to step up and might thrive with Pettine. I'm sure, as others have said, they have some plans on how to use Aaron Williams who projected as a potential talent at safety coming out of Texas. Just say no to safety in the 1st. Not sure we're OK at CB but the resigning of "McLovin" makes me think they feel good there. Load up on LBers and grab a WR early. You should be talking TE before safety for crying out loud! Draft a developmental QB and take your safety in the 6th--say hello to Cooper Taylor: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619598/cooper-taylor. I'm intrigued by that write up and some other buzz. Edited April 13, 2013 by biggerdaddynj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieG Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Sure tackler and vicious hitter...I love this guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W2vFYz-1pE No, he isn't. But it is easy to create a highlight tape of him. He's going to get his tackles per game, but he's going to miss on a lot of others. Overly aggressive, bad angles a great deal of the time, slow to read misdirection, surprisingly taken out easy by a blocking WR. Living in the midwest, got to watch a lot of Big 12 football. Watch the Oklahoma st. game and watch him lose his jock on their TD run. Watch the Oklahoma game and watch them roll over Texas. Ask yourself..."where is Kenny Vaccarro?" In particular, watch the 95 yard TD run. He was in perfect position ot make a tackle, failed to diagnose a draw, shot the wrong gap and the RB was off to the races. Watch the 2nd half of the Kansas St. game, when they rolled up 35 points in the 2nd half. He couldn't seem to get a grasp of Collin Klein's head fakes. Or the West Virginia game, where they ran for nearly 200 yards. There was a reason that Texas didn't finish in the top 100 in rush defense (quite an achievement in the pass happy Big 12), and he was a part of it. They gave up nearly 200 yards a game rushing. He's actually a lot like Donte Whitner..he'll get his hits at the line and he'll run people down at times, but he's going to miss on a hell of a lot of others. Bad, bad idea, especially at 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Good defenses are built up the middle. NG/DT, ILB/MLB and Safeties are a must. Shriff Floyd DT, Alec Ogletree ILB or Star Lotulelei wouod be good picks. Vaccaro is a luxury pick. This team needs talent in the box, The Bills can get a SS later in the draft. If the go and reach for Geno Smith, rated on most istes as a mid to late first round talent, then that changes the focus of the draft. 2 picks in premium rounds to fill needs at WR, LB and DB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggerdaddynj Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Good defenses are built up the middle. NG/DT, ILB/MLB and Safeties are a must. Shriff Floyd DT, Alec Ogletree ILB or Star Lotulelei wouod be good picks. Vaccaro is a luxury pick. This team needs talent in the box, The Bills can get a SS later in the draft. If the go and reach for Geno Smith, rated on most istes as a mid to late first round talent, then that changes the focus of the draft. 2 picks in premium rounds to fill needs at WR, LB and DB. Trade back for Ogletree (he's the only impact ILB) and score an extra 3rd to use on another OLB or TE or to move back into the bottom of the first if they have a hard on for a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 No, he isn't. But it is easy to create a highlight tape of him. He's going to get his tackles per game, but he's going to miss on a lot of others. Overly aggressive, bad angles a great deal of the time, slow to read misdirection, surprisingly taken out easy by a blocking WR. Living in the midwest, got to watch a lot of Big 12 football. Watch the Oklahoma st. game and watch him lose his jock on their TD run. Watch the Oklahoma game and watch them roll over Texas. Ask yourself..."where is Kenny Vaccarro?" In particular, watch the 95 yard TD run. He was in perfect position ot make a tackle, failed to diagnose a draw, shot the wrong gap and the RB was off to the races. Watch the 2nd half of the Kansas St. game, when they rolled up 35 points in the 2nd half. He couldn't seem to get a grasp of Collin Klein's head fakes. Or the West Virginia game, where they ran for nearly 200 yards. There was a reason that Texas didn't finish in the top 100 in rush defense (quite an achievement in the pass happy Big 12), and he was a part of it. They gave up nearly 200 yards a game rushing. He's actually a lot like Donte Whitner..he'll get his hits at the line and he'll run people down at times, but he's going to miss on a hell of a lot of others. Bad, bad idea, especially at 8. Agree big time with this take...He's a very good Safety prospect in a Draft that is lacking a top tier at Safety, but is VERY deep in the middle 1st Round and on...I like the Whitner comparison...Not that they are the same player, because they're not...But there are similarities, especially considering where they should be Drafted in the 1st Round...A prospect like Whitner/Vaccaro will get pushed up in a Draft that is lacking a prospect like Mark Barron...And even though I think Barron was clearly an elite-type Safety prospect, I still did not believe he was top 10 worthy...Barron played in all 16 games and had a respectable 89 total tackles, but only one INT, and one forced fumble...He was clearly not a difference maker as a Rookie...I don't think Vaccaro will be either...And I don't believe in Drafting SS's high regardless... It's not really a knock on Vaccaro...He's a good prospect...But lets not get carried away either...Like the Bills did with Whitner for example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Agreed... I don't think any Bills Fan is going to guarantee anything concerning this QB class...But like it or not this better be the year The Bills start getting serious about finding the future at QB...And in order to get serious, you need to start Drafting them...The Bills need to identify the QB's they feel they can build around, and they need to Draft one of those QB's in the 1st two Rounds...It's a step towards the ultimate goal. No position is more important...And certainly not SS...Though admittedly, like most positions, the Bills need help there too... But QB needs to be King from now on, or this team will continue to wallow...Build a real Depth Chart at QB for years to come...That is by far the Bills greatest need...IMHO it's not even close...And I have to admit to being surprised when I hear a Bills fan who feels differently...It's really strange to me after what we have all seen not only in Buffalo, but league wide... With recognition that QB IS the most important position, I think this argument doesn't go deep enough. I fully agree that they need a young QB that they believe can sooner or later become a good starter. I agree that they need to look very closely at the available QB prospects this year (and every year until they find a good one). By all appearances, the Bills are doing just that - they have interviewed/worked out basically every QB in this draft that has a pulse. I also agree with pretty much everyone on here, that IF they think that there is a QB in this draft that has a good chance to become a good starter then they should draft him. I'll go a step further and say that if they believe that, then they should spend their 8th pick on that guy. If they feel that there is a good starter in this draft they shouldn't be messing around with trade downs in round 1 or trade ups in round 2 to "match value with the pick" - because any good starting QB in the NFL is by definition worth a high pick. Where my view differs from yours is that, if after all of their due diligence they still don't feel that any of the QBs in this draft are very likely to become a good NFL starter, then I don't see any value at all in spending a high draft pick on one. There are, of course, shades of gray to that. If there is a guy who they think *might* be a good starter if he can overcome some limitations or inexperience, then 2nd round on makes sense to take that chance. Edited April 13, 2013 by OldTimer1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Where my view differs from yours is that, if after all of their due diligence they still don't feel that any of the QBs in this draft are very likely to become a good NFL starter, then I don't see any value at all in spending a high draft pick on one. There are, of course, shades of gray to that. If there is a guy who they think *might* be a good starter if he can overcome some limitations or inexperience, then 2nd round on makes sense to take that chance. I think that take may very well be closer to the reality of the situation this year...And my only point would be...still...they have to do it...If it's at #41 then so be it...But they absolutely must do it...And I can't imagine how they could go through all these QB prospects with a fine tooth comb and not come to the conclusion that a couple of them are worthy of, at the very least, a 2nd Round pick...Instead I think they are going to like a couple of them enough to possibly trade down a bit in the 1st, but still land in an area where they are safe to take the QB they desire (assuming that QB is not Geno because I think Geno will be gone), instead of chancing it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I think that take may very well be closer to the reality of the situation this year...And my only point would be...still...they have to do it...If it's at #41 then so be it...But they absolutely must do it...And I can't imagine how they could go through all these QB prospects with a fine tooth comb and not come to the conclusion that a couple of them are worthy of, at the very least, a 2nd Round pick...Instead I think they are going to like a couple of them enough to possibly trade down a bit in the 1st, but still land in an area where they are safe to take the QB they desire (assuming that QB is not Geno because I think Geno will be gone), instead of chancing it... We are about on the same page, I think. IF they think one of them is a good prospect to be a good NFL starter, I wouldn't mess around with any trade down - I'd just take him at 8. If they don't think so, then a 2nd or 3rd round pick on someone who they think has some possibility of becoming a good NFL starter is fine by me. I just don't want to seen them "force" a pick early on someone who has a lot of negatives. FWIW, I don't have a rational reason beyond him failing to lead his team to more wins and his inability to beat Syracuse, but I don't like Geno Smith. I could be on board with Manuel or Nassib in the first. I just don't see Nassib as the 3rd round prospect that so many here say he is. I see enough arm and a lot of competitiveness. He was also 2-1 this year against Geno Smith, Matt Barkley and Teddy Bridgewater - leading a huge underdog Syracuse team to an upset of highly ranked Louisville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeisterHollow Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 We are about on the same page, I think. IF they think one of them is a good prospect to be a good NFL starter, I wouldn't mess around with any trade down - I'd just take him at 8. If they don't think so, then a 2nd or 3rd round pick on someone who they think has some possibility of becoming a good NFL starter is fine by me. I just don't want to seen them "force" a pick early on someone who has a lot of negatives. FWIW, I don't have a rational reason beyond him failing to lead his team to more wins and his inability to beat Syracuse, but I don't like Geno Smith. I could be on board with Manuel or Nassib in the first. I just don't see Nassib as the 3rd round prospect that so many here say he is. I see enough arm and a lot of competitiveness. He was also 2-1 this year against Geno Smith, Matt Barkley and Teddy Bridgewater - leading a huge underdog Syracuse team to an upset of highly ranked Louisville. I'm on board, also - I think if the Bills believe any of these QB's can be their franchise guy for 10 years then they had better not get cute and try to "steal" him in the second, because there are way too many picks between our first and second pick, and there are not only the teams that actually need QB's, but other teams who will look at what San Fran and Washington did recently and take a flyer on a guy who might turn into something special. I'd be very surprised if by pick 41 there aren't already 3 or 4 QB's taken. In fact, I'd guess Smith, Barkley, Nassib, and Manuel would be gone by 41. If they're planning on waiting, they better be ready to make a trade back up into round 1. I'd be fine with them not taking a QB at 8 and going something else - but if they're passing on a QB they better make sure it's an impact player - because there are a lot of talented guys at the top of round 1. The last thing we need is to come away with another Whitner pick, with a guy like Lututelei (similar to Ngata), or Ansah (similar to Pierre Paul) or any of a bunch of good looking prospects. The Bills just don't have the luxury of missing on picks this year, if they have any hope of making a playoff run. So, if they put off QB again, it should only mean that they're looking to go all in - to do whatever it takes next year - to get a legitimate QB, regardless of where they fall in the standings. I really don't see them waiting, though - it just makes too much sense to take a risk this year (especially with Nassib out there) and if it doesn't work, they can try again in a year or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 If they aren't going to use the first pick on a QB, they should take the best guy on the board, at a position of need. There are MANY positions of need, and safety may be one of them, but how likely is it that a safety is going to be the best player available when they pick? Using an 8th pick on a safety, because you have a defensive scheme that relies heavily the play of the safety, sounds very familiar. And why are these coordinators basing schemes around a position they don't think is a team strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I'd be disappointed if a safety is the pick at #8; not as sad as if it was a rb though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Trade back for Ogletree (he's the only impact ILB) and score an extra 3rd to use on another OLB or TE or to move back into the bottom of the first if they have a hard on for a QB. This would be a best case scenario for the Bills. Edited April 13, 2013 by Nitro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 No, he isn't. But it is easy to create a highlight tape of him. He's going to get his tackles per game, but he's going to miss on a lot of others. Overly aggressive, bad angles a great deal of the time, slow to read misdirection, surprisingly taken out easy by a blocking WR. Living in the midwest, got to watch a lot of Big 12 football. Watch the Oklahoma st. game and watch him lose his jock on their TD run. Watch the Oklahoma game and watch them roll over Texas. Ask yourself..."where is Kenny Vaccarro?" In particular, watch the 95 yard TD run. He was in perfect position ot make a tackle, failed to diagnose a draw, shot the wrong gap and the RB was off to the races. Watch the 2nd half of the Kansas St. game, when they rolled up 35 points in the 2nd half. He couldn't seem to get a grasp of Collin Klein's head fakes. Or the West Virginia game, where they ran for nearly 200 yards. There was a reason that Texas didn't finish in the top 100 in rush defense (quite an achievement in the pass happy Big 12), and he was a part of it. They gave up nearly 200 yards a game rushing. He's actually a lot like Donte Whitner..he'll get his hits at the line and he'll run people down at times, but he's going to miss on a hell of a lot of others. Bad, bad idea, especially at 8. Agreed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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