I'm ashamed to be a Republican tonight.

[nobody]

Yesterday's death squads killing innocent people is today's "collateral damage".

[RkFast]

Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

 

What do they all have in common?

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

Conversely, that's why they argue against it much too easily as well. 

 

It sounds like what you're saying, then, is that the real argument is which of these views is more valid: the perception "people" in the sense of mass of individuals, or as a society.  Ultimately...I see you interpreting war through an individualistic perspective (understandably), whereas the very nature of warfare is societal.  Ergo...I'm forced to disagree with you on the subject of hunting down and killing insurgency leaders being an appropriate and valuable tactic.

 

Nor can I really see it as ultimately an admission of defeat - far from it, I'd say the delay in implementing such a strategy is the reason Iraq is such a mess right now.  The seeds of the ultimate US defeat in Iraq are sown at a far more fundamentally basic level than the tactics used in hunting down insurgents.  Discussing events on the ground is just a smoke screen for dodging the real issue of the rationally bankrupt and inherently paradoxical policy of "exporting democracy"...which nobody ever questions, to my immense amazement.

200329[/snapback]

Actually I'm arguing both in this case. As far as an individualistis perspecitve it wasn't successful. From a societal perspective it is also not a success. In fact is has made it worse.

 

As far as hunting down and murdering people it may have been successful in El Salvador but it's at least debatable that it would be successful in a muslim country such as Iraq since it is no longer a secular nation and is well on its way to becoming a Shi'ite theocracy.

 

I agree that the reason we are heading toward not winning in Iraq is indeed at a far more basic level than the obviously depserate tactics now being considered. But not doing this earlier is not the reason why we are facing defeat. The beginning of wisdom is to recognize that the ongoing war in Iraq is not one that the United States can win. It is a result of its initial miscalculations, misdirected planning, and inadequate preparation, Bush has lost the Iraqi people's confidence and consent, and it is unlikely to win them back. Every day that Americans shell Iraqi cities they lose further ground on the central front of Iraqi opinion. The surest way to send this into an irreversible downward spiral is to sanction death squads and become no better than the regime we liberated them from.

[Chef Jim]

Soon we will have a 2 party system with 1 party ideas. 

200527[/snapback]

 

Soon? Sad to say, we're already there. Just ask AD.

[RkFast]

The surest way to send this into an irreversible downward spiral is to sanction death squads and become no better than the regime we liberated them from.

 

Or we can sit around, try not to hurt their "feelings" and be sure to duck out of the way of the sniper fire coming from the minaret 50 yards away.

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

Disprove it?  You'll have to offer up proof of your ridiculous statement before I bother wasting my time ripping it to shreds.

199824[/snapback]

As a Republican my beliefs are based in less government and opposing huge pork barrel spending by Democrats. This is what the party opposed and what I identify with to this day.

 

The current form of ideology steering my party is supporting the obscence, wasteful use of taxpayer dollars (SS reform - 2 trillion at least, Medicare reform - 8.1 trillion, making tax cuts permanent that benefit only the wealthy - 11 trillion) and pork barrel spending is out of control. We as a party have indeed lost this mantle to the Democrats according to all 6 exit polls from the most recent election. They now (According to the American voters) are the party of fiscal responsibility and the party that they most trust in the handling of the economy. To their credit they balanced the budget through the deficit reduction act of 93 and we failed to get onboard with pay-as-you-go rules and we are now getting hit over the head with it.

 

The worst thing that could happen is SS reform being passed as our achievement. Why? Because it's an argument based upon a lie and when you must lie to the American people in order to gain support for something odds are you're argument is fatally flawed. If this happens we as a party will get hit hard when the true cost of destroying SS is realized. Same goes for the medicare reform that takes effect in 2006.

 

Like I said I'm a REAL Republican, not a Bush-Republican.

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

Or we can sit around, try not to hurt their "feelings" and be sure to duck out of the way of the sniper fire coming from the minaret 50 yards away.

200567[/snapback]

So the answer is too make this worse?

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

I am amazed that even though you have lost your son, a tragedy for which you have all my sympathy and prayers, you are against the idea of death squads.  Some would be so angry over their incredible loss that they would be willing to support any measures taken against the enemy, no matter how violent or likely to kill innocent people.  That you have been through such a tragedy and still kept your ability to reason and to honor the tenets of your faith is inspirational.

200074[/snapback]

As I said I'm a true Christian who actually believes in what the bible says. It is that faith that gives me that strength. It also provieds me the clarity to relaize exactly why he died and it wasn't because "they hate our freedom". It is becuase in the eyes of the Iraqi people and of all the neighboring populations, the U.S. mission in Iraq lacks legitimacy and credibility. My belief is that only by dramatically recasting the American role in the region can such perceptions begin to be changed. Until then, U.S. military operations in Iraq will continue to inspire local resistance, radicalize neighboring populations, and discourage international cooperation.

[Chef Jim]

making tax cuts permanent that benefit only the wealthy - 11 trillion)

200576[/snapback]

 

If I hear this one more time I'm going to puke! I have two questions for you. Do you pay taxes? Are you wealthy? I you answered yes to the first (which you should) and no to the second (which I imagine you did) you are not wealthy and benefited from the tax cuts. Sounds like this republican has been brainwashed by the garbage coming from the left.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

As I said I'm a true Christian who actually believes in what the bible says.  It is that faith that gives me that strength.  It also provieds me the clarity to relaize exactly why he died and it wasn't because "they hate our freedom".  It is becuase in the eyes of the Iraqi people and of all the neighboring populations, the U.S. mission in Iraq lacks legitimacy and credibility. My belief is that only by dramatically recasting the American role in the region can such perceptions begin to be changed. Until then, U.S. military operations in Iraq will continue to inspire local resistance, radicalize neighboring populations, and discourage international cooperation.

200585[/snapback]

 

"International Cooperation" is why we're there in the first place. If we'd have kept up with more "International Cooperation", Saddam would still be in power. No dowubt the corrypt politicos at the Un would have ended sanctions and we'd all be wondering how long until Saddam built a bomb.

 

gotta love "International Cooperation"

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

I dont think anyone's arguing that. Its very notable and commendable and worthy of praise and sympathy, even though this person told me to take MY sympathies and shove them, which is not a very "Christian" thing to do. Whatever.

 

The problem here is that this person thinks that

 

A) the mere thought of using the strategy in question means its going to happen

B) that the decision to use them is solely a partisan issue

C) the way to win the war is to "make nice"

 

Those are my issues with this person's thoughts on the issue.

200081[/snapback]

You are correct. It would not be a very Christian thing to do so I believe you misunderstood my words. I was merely pointing out that you demeaning the loss of my son by simply labeling it a "sacrifice" and I pointed out things that could rightly be labeled that while explaining how insenstive it was to label my son's death as such.

 

As far as your other points --

 

A) That is your summation but it directly contradicts my words. I believe that is shows how far we as a nation have lowered ourselves that we are even entertaining the idea.

B) If approved it must be approved by the President who is the most partisan President our naiton has ever had even among us Republicans.

C) No one has ever argued that and again it's your summation and not my words.

 

If you are going to insult me and dishonor the death of son at least have the decency to not misrepresent my words to do so.

[RkFast]

So the answer is too make this worse?

200579[/snapback]

 

NO.

 

I do see your point, truly. But we've got to do SOMETHING. We cannot let this go on any longer. And what Im trying (and failing) to say is that sometimes, that SOMETHING is not pretty. When bombs were dropped on the cities I mentioned above, which resulted in tons of civilian casualties and horror, it was done with a heavy heart but also the very true realization that war necessitates such actions from time to time.

 

And PLEASE stop bringing your son into this. He is not germane to the discussion in the least. And I have not dishonored him one bit.

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

If I hear this one more time I'm going to puke!  I have two questions for you.  Do you pay taxes?  Are you wealthy?  I you answered yes to the first (which you should) and no to the second (which I imagine you did) you are not wealthy and benefited from the tax cuts.  Sounds like this republican has been brainwashed by the garbage coming from the left.

200587[/snapback]

Not a t all. I'm an actual Republican that puts a premium on being factual on what I believe in and say.

[Chef Jim]

Not a t all.  I'm an actual Republican that puts a premium on being factual on what I believe in and say.

200603[/snapback]

 

Then how can you say only the wealthy got tax cuts?

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

Better they kill each other than us, yes?

200454[/snapback]

Sure, as long as we want to bring about a complete destablization of the entire region by installing a fundamentalist muslim regime on the border with the only two stable countries in the region : Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

Then how can you say only the wealthy got tax cuts?

200606[/snapback]

Because of the burden that was passed onto local and state agencies which thenincreased those fees in order to make up for shortfalls in tax revenues. This impacted disporportionately Amercians who are not wealthy and more than balanced out the 200 or so they recieved in tax refund.

[Chef Jim]

Because of the burden that was passed onto local and state agencies which thenincreased those fees in order to make up for shortfalls in tax revenues.  This impacted disporportionately Amercians who are not wealthy and more than balanced out the 200 or so they recieved in tax refund.

200622[/snapback]

 

If that's what you think, then you have no idea why taxes are cut and the long range ramifications of tax cuts. Where do you think those cuts went. They were spent locally, which raised local tax revenues. It's always been a spending problem, not a revenue problem. Now the Bush administrations spending policies.......that's a different story that we probably could both aree on.

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

If that's what you think, then you have no idea why taxes are cut and the long range ramifications of tax cuts.  Where do you think those cuts went.  They were spent locally, which raised local tax revenues.  It's always been a spending problem, not a revenue problem.  Now the Bush administrations spending policies.......that's a different story that we probably could both aree on.

200630[/snapback]

Then where the jobs? Those tax dollars were not spent locally becuase our economy promotes foreign not domestic investment and with the crushing deficits we continue to increase that will not change. Look no further than the performance of the dollar.

 

Targeted tax cuts work, across the board cuts simply do not and never ever have.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Sure, as long as we want to bring about a complete destablization of the entire region by installing a fundamentalist muslim regime on the border with the only two stable countries in the region : Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

200611[/snapback]

 

I think it's disingenuous at the least to say Saudi's stable. It's like pressure cooker. A thin vaneer of control overlapping a roiling trouble.

 

We, simply put, MUST put down this rebellion by the Sunnis no matter the method or cost.

 

Half-jokingly, I've advocated the Roman method many a time. Now I'm not quite so joking. The Iraqis had a chance to work with us instead of against us. Now it's time for the iron fist. The velvet glove is simply beyond those people's capacity to understand at this point.

[Losman-McGahee-Evans]

NO.

 

I do see your point, truly. But we've got to do SOMETHING. We cannot let this go on any longer. And what Im trying (and failing) to say is that sometimes, that SOMETHING is not pretty. When bombs were dropped on the cities I mentioned above, which resulted in tons of civilian casualties and horror, it was done with a heavy heart but also the very true realization that war necessitates such actions from time to time.

 

And PLEASE stop bringing your son into this. He is not germane to the discussion in the least. And I have not dishonored him one bit.

200601[/snapback]

Maybe you are not really familiar with what these death squads did in El Salvador. Maybe if you did indeed have a base of knowledge or a foundation of experience with them you would see why that those that support them simply cannot be Christians.

 

The death squads were called the "Atlacatl Battalion". This was a rapid-response unit created, under U.S. pressure, for counter-insurgency warfare. In a contemporary account, Americas Watch said that "Created, trained and equipped by the United States, the Atlacatl...is an elite grouping within the Armed Forces" [AW AYOR page 127] The Atlacatl was the showpiece unit of the U.S.-inspired reorganization of the Salvadoran military during the early 1980s. Commanded by the dashing Col. Domingo Monterrosa, Atlacatl was the headline grabbing unit of the army.

 

Atlacatl carried out some of the most notorious massacres of the civil war, including the worst massacre in modern Latin American history at El Mozote. Atlacatl also carried out the November 1989 massacre of six Jesuits at the University of Central America. According to a 1991 Americas Watch report, the Altacatl Battalion "remains perhaps the most appalling violator of human rights in El Salvador." [AW DOT page 20]

 

The Atlacatl Battalion was disbanded under the terms of the 1992 peace treaty.

 

To support this or even consider it makes my once proud party nothing more than a collection of moral leppers. It was our party that passed the War Crimes Act in 1996 to prevent this from happening again.