Still dismayed by personnel decisions

[Dorkington]

My only "real" concern this season is that we haven't signed enough guys to offset how many we lost... meaning more UDFAs, and stretch rookies playing. Didn't really expect us to hit any homeruns this offseason, not after last year's anyways.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Last I heard the Bills never really even showed any interest in bringing back Levitre. The a posteriori curve fitting is to say that they knew he was too expensive all along. At the time, they showed a total lack of interest. Not to mention that Buddy Nix has openly stated he wanted to build a bigger and stronger team and has gone "bigger is better" repeatedly. Ah well. It's easy analytics to see smokescreens and get 3-way calling.

[NewEra]

I still can't get over the Bills letting Levitre walk, then letting Rhinehart (a much lesser talent) go. With the Kolb-for-Fitz switch, the dumping of the young wide receivers (leaving them next to nothing on the roster to work with), I just see this franchise spinning its wheels.

 

The draft is just going to be about plugging holes they created after the end of last season, with players no better and likely worse. You draft and develop a guy like Levitre, then just let him go. Same story as Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, Ted Washington, Marshawn Lynch, Jason Peters, yada yada yada.

 

I have generally been a positive outlook guy on this board, for many many years. I basically avoid hating on specific players and I don't like that form of fan behavior. But I have never been so bleak about an upcoming draft and season. I really hope they prove me wrong, but I have no confidence in this new management. I just have the fatal feeling that this loser franchise will never be good.

 

As of right now, we are 8.5 mill under the cap for next season. That's without us signing anyone else this off season. If we signed Levitre, we would have zero room next year. We can only overpay so many people. Mario is the most overpaid player in the nfl already. Levitre is a good player. He's not worth 8 mill a year in my mind. Apparently our FO feels the same. Sometimes you have to let talented players go and fill their departures in the draft. It happens to every team. We're talking about our starting Left Guard. Getting paid 8 mill a year and has never been "all-anything"

[vincec]

Last I heard the Bills never really even showed any interest in bringing back Levitre. The a posteriori curve fitting is to say that they knew he was too expensive all along. At the time, they showed a total lack of interest. Not to mention that Buddy Nix has openly stated he wanted to build a bigger and stronger team and has gone "bigger is better" repeatedly. Ah well. It's easy analytics to see smokescreens and get 3-way calling.

I'm sure that the "get bigger" mantra played some part in it but I would find it hard to believe that the Bills didn't have some idea of Levitre's market value. And even if they didn't they did the right thing in retrospect given what he was paid by Tennessee.

[ganesh]

Yeah, Levitre's success may have been because he was with the Bills. A lot of O-linemen have trouble changing teams and gelling with their new fellow linemen. Look at Jason Peters and Detress Bell. A team like the Bills can't afford to pay huge money to an above average lineman. Good for Levitre for getting the big payday. As a former lineman and a man who understands that the game is won in the trenches, there is no way Marrone will neglect the Bills' O-line during his tenure.

 

I think Levitre is a very good OL (Not just an average one as you say). However, paying 8M a year for a guard (even for an extremely good one) is not the way to build the franchise. Good players give home town discounts to good teams...Levitre chose not to and the bills chose not to pay premium money.

[Niagara Bill]

Yeah, Levitre's success may have been because he was with the Bills. A lot of O-linemen have trouble changing teams and gelling with their new fellow linemen. Look at Jason Peters and Detress Bell. A team like the Bills can't afford to pay huge money to an above average lineman. Good for Levitre for getting the big payday. As a former lineman and a man who understands that the game is won in the trenches, there is no way Marrone will neglect the Bills' O-line during his tenure.

this is one of the craziest posts ever read.What the he?? do you mean by saying a team like the Bills. The hole point is the front office is so bad that we pay all the wrong players and get ourselves in cash and cap problems with no success. A TEAM LIKE THE BILLS should be able to pay their home developed players because the rest of the bunch is not good enough and should not be paid. Instead we overpay for others peoples junk (Mario) and lose our best home players.

[1B4IDie]

There is no new management. I don't know why people say that.

 

The Fitz to Kolb move is a side step with a slim chance to be a forward step. We know Fitz definitely is not a winner. Do we know if Kolb is a winner?

 

Signing Levitre for 8M wouldn't have hurt the Bills franchise at all. They made a decision I don't agree. That happens. Why draft a guard in the first 50 picks ever if you're never going to pay them money when they develop.

 

Donald Jones sux.

 

David Nelson had potential. It appears Marrone wants speed.

 

Rhinhert was a servicable backup Nothing more.

 

So what did they really lose?

 

This is basically a list of non-events of off season moves aside from Levitre.

 

There are FAs, and UDFA WRs everyear that are young and fast, not to mention the list of the best TEs throughout the early part of this century that are all Free Agents now and can still contribute.

 

So its not that bad of an off season.

 

Just show me the baby already.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[Mango]

 

 

Levitre realized it was the scheme and QB which made the OL look so good hence it was time to leave once Head Coach and OL coach were cut. It was time to get the big contract NOW.

 

This is the smartest post about the issue so far. Also the most correct

[Sisyphean Bills]

The Fitz to Kolb move is a side step with a slim chance to be a forward step. We know Fitz definitely is not a winner. Do we know if Kolb is a winner?

 

We know Kolb has every sign of having Rob Johnsonitis -- guy simply can't stay in one piece and is a sack magnet. Fitzpatrick had other problems, but no one can say he was brittle.

[Marc in MontrÈal]

"The draft is just going to be about plugging holes they created after the end of last season, with players no better and likely worse. You draft and develop a guy like Levitre, then just let him go. Same story as Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, Ted Washington, Marshawn Lynch, Jason Peters, yada yada yada."

 

Didn't know we drafted and developed Ted Washington.

 

Marc in Montréal

[Storm Front]

I wonder if more people would be upset had OBD ponyed up the doe to re-sign Levitre than those who think we should not have let him walk. The dude is a freakin' right guard! He isn't even an elite one at that. It's not like he was going to lead us to a Super Bowl or anything. He is not even a good run blocker. I bet no one will even notice he is gone once the season starts.

 

Marrone is a former offensive lineman. He will make sure we continue to get the best out of the O-line. The probability is pretty high that we will draft an O-lineman in the middle to late rounds of the upcoming draft. Most teams do this every year, the Bills are no exception.

[1B4IDie]

We know Kolb has every sign of having Rob Johnsonitis -- guy simply can't stay in one piece and is a sack magnet. Fitzpatrick had other problems, but no one can say he was brittle.

Completely agree. The comparison between Rob Johnson in Buffalo and Kelvin Kolb in AZ are so similar. The only difference being that AZ was smart enough to dump the chump faster than the Bills.

 

But Fitzaster sucked and playing QB. Which is far more important than being able to take a hit.

 

There is a very very very slim chance that if Kolb is kept clean he may not suck at playing QB. (I personally doubt it.) However the chance still remains. There is ZERO chance that Fitzaster is good at playing QB.

 

If your QB sucks at playing QB than you don't have a QB, it doesn't matter how nice he is, where he went to school, or what he scored on the Wonderlic.

 

Tom Brady is a dumb, arsehole by most accounts; he can sure play QB though.

 

I wonder if more people would be upset had OBD ponyed up the doe to re-sign Levitre than those who think we should not have let him walk. The dude is a freakin' right guard! He isn't even an elite one at that. It's not like he was going to lead us to a Super Bowl or anything. He is not even a good run blocker. I bet no one will even notice he is gone once the season starts.

 

Marrone is a former offensive lineman. He will make sure we continue to get the best out of the O-line. The probability is pretty high that we will draft an O-lineman in the middle to late rounds of the upcoming draft. Most teams do this every year, the Bills are no exception.

He played LG.

Wood played RG before he moved to Center.

 

RG is the easiest to find position on the O-Line, LG is the second easiest to find position on the O-Line. Having an athletic Guard like Levitre though lets you do neat things in the running game and screens. You can get any big dude to stand in front of another big dude for 3 seconds. Its more difficult to find an athletic big dude that can pull quickly and effectively.

[The Big Cat]

Completely agree. The comparison between Rob Johnson in Buffalo and Kelvin Kolb in AZ are so similar. The only difference being that AZ was smart enough to dump the chump faster than the Bills.

 

But Fitzaster sucked and playing QB. Which is far more important than being able to take a hit.

 

There is a very very very slim chance that if Kolb is kept clean he may not suck at playing QB. (I personally doubt it.) However the chance still remains. There is ZERO chance that Fitzaster is good at playing QB.

 

If your QB sucks at playing QB than you don't have a QB, it doesn't matter how nice he is, where he went to school, or what he scored on the Wonderlic.

 

Tom Brady is a dumb, arsehole by most accounts; he can sure play QB though.

 

 

He played LG.

Wood played RG before he moved to Center.

 

RG is the easiest to find position on the O-Line, LG is the second easiest to find position on the O-Line. Having an athletic Guard like Levitre though lets you do neat things in the running game and screens. You can get any big dude to stand in front of another big dude for 3 seconds. Its more difficult to find an athletic big dude that can pull quickly and effectively.

 

I think there's too much conflicting evidence to have a consensus on the chicken v egg question: Who lost Bills more games for the Bills in 2012: Fitz? or Wanny?

 

IMO, without question, the answer is Wanny. But, I also acknowledge that there are plenty of folks who see the situation differently, so obviously it's not as cut and dry as it is in my head, or theirs.

 

Where do you come down?

[1B4IDie]

Levitre realized it was the scheme and QB which made the OL look so good hence it was time to leave once Head Coach and OL coach were cut. It was time to get the big contract NOW.

This is the smartest post about the issue so far. Also the most correct

 

[sarcasm]

"Yeah Hall of Fame Guard Mike Munchak wouldn't know a good guard if one sat on his lap. "

 

"Totally Dude! You are the smartest person around"

[/sarcasm]

 

 

I think there's too much conflicting evidence to have a consensus on the chicken v egg question: Who lost Bills more games for the Bills in 2012: Fitz? or Wanny?

 

IMO, without question, the answer is Wanny. But, I also acknowledge that there are plenty of folks who see the situation differently, so obviously it's not as cut and dry as it is in my head, or theirs.

 

Where do you come down?

I think there is enough blame to go around.

 

Wanny deserves the lion share in my opinion. His inflexible "scheme" is a joke. He has lived off of Jimmy Johnson his whole career. As soon as he left Jimmy Johnson he sucked. Him and Norv Turner should be paying Jimmy Johnson dividends on any money they earn. They both are two of the worst coaches in Football history but somehow get more chances and live off of that HoF cramped Cowgirls team.

 

Fitz on his own (de) merit proved separately that he is not a capable QB. The First Pats Game, Tenn, and St. Louis in '12 should seal the deal on Fitzaster's "potential." The Defense alone didn't lose those games. Fitzpatrick is not a good QB that is capable of making good decisions that give his team a better chance to win. (period) With the 1985 Bears defense playing on his team, I fully believe Fitzaster would find new and interesting ways to lose football games.

 

Is Kolb a good QB that is capable of making good decisions that give his team a better chance to win? The Jury is still out, but the foreman has indicated that a decision is close and it doesn't look too good for Kolb.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[dogbyte]

Andy was the only real lose. He should been addressed before he hit fa.

The Peters problem was caused by our FO. Peters was ok with his contract until they went out and signed Dockery and Walker to contracts that were double Peters.

[The Big Cat]

[sarcasm]

"Yeah Hall of Fame Guard Mike Munchak wouldn't know a good guard if one sat on his lap. "

 

"Totally Dude! You are the smartest person around"

[/sarcasm]

 

 

 

I think there is enough blame to go around.

 

Wanny deserves the lion share in my opinion. His inflexible "scheme" is a joke. He has lived off of Jimmy Johnson his whole career. As soon as he left Jimmy Johnson he sucked. Him and Norv Turner should be paying Jimmy Johnson dividends on any money they earn. They both are two of the worst coaches in Football history but somehow get more chances and live off of that HoF cramped Cowgirls team.

 

Fitz on his own (de) merit proved separately that he is not a capable QB. The First Pats Game, Tenn, and St. Louis in '12 should seal the deal on Fitzaster's "potential." The Defense alone didn't lose those games. Fitzpatrick is not a good QB that is capable of making good decisions that give his team a better chance to win. (period) With the 1985 Bears defense playing on his team, I fully believe Fitzaster would find new and interesting ways to lose football games.

 

Is Kolb a good QB that is capable of making good decisions that give his team a better chance to win? The Jury is still out, but the foreman has indicated that a decision is close and it doesn't look too good for Kolb.

 

I would argue that the defense--giving up 5 touchdowns, did in fact lose us the Tennessee game. Do you recall CJ2K's 80+ run straight up the gut?

 

But let's not split hairs, because of the defense, Fitz had to be excellent, bordering on perfect to keep our team honest last year. I'm not saying Fitz is good, but I am saying he wasn't bad either. What I can tell you, is that he wasn't good enough to win with our defense last year, though I'd argue very few QB's in the league would have been.

 

This is important to note, because while I agree that Kolb is a lateral move, he is NOT (presumably) inheriting the same situation Fitz dealt with last year. In other words, if he's the starter (I have my doubts that he will be), and if he can keep his jersey clean and keep his bones in tact (I have my doubts about these things, too), he'll appear, on paper, to be a superior quarterback to Fitz, when I don't believe that to be true.

Edited April 11, 2013 by taC giB ehT

[1B4IDie]

I would argue that the defense--giving up 5 touchdowns, did in fact lose us the Tennessee game. Do you recall CJ2K's 80+ run straight up the gut?

 

But let's not split hairs, because of the defense, Fitz had to be excellent, bordering on perfect to keep our team honest last year. I'm not saying Fitz is good, but I am saying he wasn't bad either. What I can tell you, is that he wasn't good enough to win with our defense last year, though I'd argue very few QB's in the league would have been.

 

This is important to note, because while I agree that Kolb is a lateral move, he is NOT (presumably) inheriting the same situation Fitz dealt with last year. In other words, if he's the starter (I have my doubts that he will be), and if he can keep his jersey clean and keep his bones in tact (I have my doubts about these things, too), he'll appear, on paper, to be a superior quarterback to Fitz, when I don't believe that to be true.

I have doubts about Pettine's defense. I'm not taking it for a foregone conclusion that the defense will improve. See Wannstache without Jimmy Johnson. Because Pettine coached with Rex Ryan doesn't mean he will be Rex Ryan.

 

I can see your point of view. It is a valid thought imo.

 

That being said I saw too many poor decisions and erratic throws from Fitz to want to see one more pass from Fitz on the Buffalo Bills. Season Opener against Jets, first drive, Wide open Chandler for a first down with room to run. He skips the ball on the turf. Who knows what happens if Fitz doesn't kill that drive. The Bills starting out on the road with an early lead changes the game and doesn't let Sanchize wing the ball on our obviously not gelled defense. Just one example of Fitz' ineptitude on how it has ripple effects.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[The Big Cat]

I have doubts about Pettine's defense. I'm not taking it for a foregone conclusion that the defense will improve. See Wannstache without Jimmy Johnson. Because Pettine coached with Rex Ryan doesn't mean he will be Rex Ryan.

 

I can see your point of view. It is a valid thought imo.

 

That being said I saw too many poor decisions and erratic throws from Fitz to want to see one more pass from Fitz on the Buffalo Bills. Season Opener against Jets, first drive, Wide open Chandler for a first down with room to run. He skips the ball on the turf. Who knows what happens if Fitz doesn't kill that drive. The Bills starting out on the road with an early lead changes the game and doesn't let Sanchize wing the ball on our obviously not gelled defense. Just one example of Fitz' ineptitude on how it has ripple effects.

 

Admittedly, I'm cautiously optimistic about Pettine, because I also wonder how much of his defenses were an amalgamation of him and Rex--such that when one party is removed from the equation (in this case Rex), the other can still stand on his own. I absolutely have a legitimate concern about that, but only time will tell.

 

One thing that has allayed my concern thus far, is that whether or not the Rex/Pettine success was symbiotic, it was consistent, and, unlike Wanny's, RECENT.

[Cheddar's Dad]

On a related note, I find it interesting to see so many of my fellow TBD posters espousing the idea of drafting Chance Warmack, another Guard, to replace Levitre... Wasn't drafting Levitre a mistake in itself because he is ONLY a guard (and therefore not worth $7-8Million per year) and now we want to replay that same mistake by again drafting a lowly unimportant position like OG in the 1st round?

 

What a great idea. Lets protect our QG and open holes for our RBs with a three man O-line; one center and two tackles. That way we can have two more WRs or two more RBs on the field.

 

DefenseWins, I think you're on to nothing here.

[T master]

I still can't get over the Bills letting Levitre walk, then letting Rhinehart (a much lesser talent) go. With the Kolb-for-Fitz switch, the dumping of the young wide receivers (leaving them next to nothing on the roster to work with), I just see this franchise spinning its wheels.

 

The draft is just going to be about plugging holes they created after the end of last season, with players no better and likely worse. You draft and develop a guy like Levitre, then just let him go. Same story as Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, Ted Washington, Marshawn Lynch, Jason Peters, yada yada yada.

 

I have generally been a positive outlook guy on this board, for many many years. I basically avoid hating on specific players and I don't like that form of fan behavior. But I have never been so bleak about an upcoming draft and season. I really hope they prove me wrong, but I have no confidence in this new management. I just have the fatal feeling that this loser franchise will never be good.

 

If they kept Andy there would be NO money for any one else ,Clemens the same deal, & Winfield the same. If we would have done something to keep them every other year we would have been in the same mess as the Jets are right now.

 

The thing that does tweak me off is, if you do want to keep them why not start negotiating early & at least put some kind of offer on the table ?? That way you can at least say you tried.

 

But when if you want you can get a guy like Warmack to replace Andy for 4 to 5 years for less than half the money to me thats a no brainer ! Of coarse you would like to keep your good players but unless it's a CJ Spiller or A. Peterson you don't break the bank .

 

And if you spend all that money on Andy what will be left to try & sign Spiller next year ? You have to think big picture & what is coming up in the near future .

 

2 years & Andy will be on the trading block b/c the Titans won't be able or willing to pay out his contract . Plus Buddy has been great at bringing in really good line talent ...